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Examples of mediopassive verb constructions



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1















If you wanted to say "the clothes are drying" and the "the meat cooking," would you say "die Wäsche trocknet sich" and "das Fleisch kocht [sic] sich" respectively?



I was reading a blog on linguistics, and one commenter offers these sentences as examples of reflexive (likely mediopassive?) constructions.



Another commenter disagrees, writing this:



"To use reflexive constructions in your examples would mean action. Ergative, if you will. It would mean that the laundry and the meat heat themselves up, cause themselves to heat up, instead of being heated by the sun or the stove."



I'm assuming the example sentences are correct (gramatically - note the "sic" next to "kocht"), having alternative forms in "die Wäsche kann mann trocknen" and "das Fleisch kann man kochen [sic]."



One reservation I have is that every other example of the mediopassive voice I have seen that I recall has had an adverb. Can this voice be used without an adverb?



On a related note, how would you say "that tastes good"? Would you say "das schmeckt sich gut," or is this incorrect?



Source:



http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2903










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    I do not really get the question. Reflexive verbs do not, in the first place, have anything to do with passive constructions. Moreover, the word sich is out of place in both of your example sentences; nonetheless, both sentences are active voice. By the way: German has only active and passive voice, but not mediopassive voice.

    – Björn Friedrich
    8 hours ago













  • @BjörnFriedrich I hear what you're saying but David Vogt provides examples of mediopassive sentences in this answer (german.stackexchange.com/questions/49837/…).

    – Aaron
    6 hours ago
















1















If you wanted to say "the clothes are drying" and the "the meat cooking," would you say "die Wäsche trocknet sich" and "das Fleisch kocht [sic] sich" respectively?



I was reading a blog on linguistics, and one commenter offers these sentences as examples of reflexive (likely mediopassive?) constructions.



Another commenter disagrees, writing this:



"To use reflexive constructions in your examples would mean action. Ergative, if you will. It would mean that the laundry and the meat heat themselves up, cause themselves to heat up, instead of being heated by the sun or the stove."



I'm assuming the example sentences are correct (gramatically - note the "sic" next to "kocht"), having alternative forms in "die Wäsche kann mann trocknen" and "das Fleisch kann man kochen [sic]."



One reservation I have is that every other example of the mediopassive voice I have seen that I recall has had an adverb. Can this voice be used without an adverb?



On a related note, how would you say "that tastes good"? Would you say "das schmeckt sich gut," or is this incorrect?



Source:



http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2903










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    I do not really get the question. Reflexive verbs do not, in the first place, have anything to do with passive constructions. Moreover, the word sich is out of place in both of your example sentences; nonetheless, both sentences are active voice. By the way: German has only active and passive voice, but not mediopassive voice.

    – Björn Friedrich
    8 hours ago













  • @BjörnFriedrich I hear what you're saying but David Vogt provides examples of mediopassive sentences in this answer (german.stackexchange.com/questions/49837/…).

    – Aaron
    6 hours ago














1












1








1








If you wanted to say "the clothes are drying" and the "the meat cooking," would you say "die Wäsche trocknet sich" and "das Fleisch kocht [sic] sich" respectively?



I was reading a blog on linguistics, and one commenter offers these sentences as examples of reflexive (likely mediopassive?) constructions.



Another commenter disagrees, writing this:



"To use reflexive constructions in your examples would mean action. Ergative, if you will. It would mean that the laundry and the meat heat themselves up, cause themselves to heat up, instead of being heated by the sun or the stove."



I'm assuming the example sentences are correct (gramatically - note the "sic" next to "kocht"), having alternative forms in "die Wäsche kann mann trocknen" and "das Fleisch kann man kochen [sic]."



One reservation I have is that every other example of the mediopassive voice I have seen that I recall has had an adverb. Can this voice be used without an adverb?



On a related note, how would you say "that tastes good"? Would you say "das schmeckt sich gut," or is this incorrect?



Source:



http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2903










share|improve this question














If you wanted to say "the clothes are drying" and the "the meat cooking," would you say "die Wäsche trocknet sich" and "das Fleisch kocht [sic] sich" respectively?



I was reading a blog on linguistics, and one commenter offers these sentences as examples of reflexive (likely mediopassive?) constructions.



Another commenter disagrees, writing this:



"To use reflexive constructions in your examples would mean action. Ergative, if you will. It would mean that the laundry and the meat heat themselves up, cause themselves to heat up, instead of being heated by the sun or the stove."



I'm assuming the example sentences are correct (gramatically - note the "sic" next to "kocht"), having alternative forms in "die Wäsche kann mann trocknen" and "das Fleisch kann man kochen [sic]."



One reservation I have is that every other example of the mediopassive voice I have seen that I recall has had an adverb. Can this voice be used without an adverb?



On a related note, how would you say "that tastes good"? Would you say "das schmeckt sich gut," or is this incorrect?



Source:



http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2903







verbs standard-german






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 8 hours ago









AaronAaron

63817




63817








  • 1





    I do not really get the question. Reflexive verbs do not, in the first place, have anything to do with passive constructions. Moreover, the word sich is out of place in both of your example sentences; nonetheless, both sentences are active voice. By the way: German has only active and passive voice, but not mediopassive voice.

    – Björn Friedrich
    8 hours ago













  • @BjörnFriedrich I hear what you're saying but David Vogt provides examples of mediopassive sentences in this answer (german.stackexchange.com/questions/49837/…).

    – Aaron
    6 hours ago














  • 1





    I do not really get the question. Reflexive verbs do not, in the first place, have anything to do with passive constructions. Moreover, the word sich is out of place in both of your example sentences; nonetheless, both sentences are active voice. By the way: German has only active and passive voice, but not mediopassive voice.

    – Björn Friedrich
    8 hours ago













  • @BjörnFriedrich I hear what you're saying but David Vogt provides examples of mediopassive sentences in this answer (german.stackexchange.com/questions/49837/…).

    – Aaron
    6 hours ago








1




1





I do not really get the question. Reflexive verbs do not, in the first place, have anything to do with passive constructions. Moreover, the word sich is out of place in both of your example sentences; nonetheless, both sentences are active voice. By the way: German has only active and passive voice, but not mediopassive voice.

– Björn Friedrich
8 hours ago







I do not really get the question. Reflexive verbs do not, in the first place, have anything to do with passive constructions. Moreover, the word sich is out of place in both of your example sentences; nonetheless, both sentences are active voice. By the way: German has only active and passive voice, but not mediopassive voice.

– Björn Friedrich
8 hours ago















@BjörnFriedrich I hear what you're saying but David Vogt provides examples of mediopassive sentences in this answer (german.stackexchange.com/questions/49837/…).

– Aaron
6 hours ago





@BjörnFriedrich I hear what you're saying but David Vogt provides examples of mediopassive sentences in this answer (german.stackexchange.com/questions/49837/…).

– Aaron
6 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2














As a native speaker I can assure you, that you would never say




Die Wäsche trocknet sich.




I guess, the reason would be, that (a) there is just no need for the reflexive "sich" and - probably mot importantly - (b) the laundry can not be considered as kind of an independent actor that does anything for itself.



In any case,




Das schmeckt sich gut.




is not - as ist were - proper german. Because that would mean, that 'das' - whatever it is - tastes itself.






share|improve this answer
























  • The actor argument foes not fully apply, cf. "Die Wäsche verfärbt sich (z.B. wenn man zu heiß wäscht)*

    – Hagen von Eitzen
    1 hour ago



















2














English and German both have verbs participating in causative alternation.




She was drying her clothes. Her clothes were drying.

Sie trocknete ihre Kleider. Ihre Kleider trockneten.




In the second variant (called anticausative), the object of the first or causative variant has become a subject. That's parallel to what happens in the passive. However, the removal of the causative component changes the meaning: Whereas actives and passives are synonymous (disregarding certain complications), causatives and anticausatives are not. The above sentences describe different situations.



Moreover, causative alternation is a lexical phenomenon: A few verbs allow it, but most will not. This is different in the passive, which applies to the whole class of transitive verbs.



The lexical nature of the phenomenon is underlined by the fact that certain verbs will require a reflexive pronoun in the anticausative.




Sie öffnete die Tür. Die Tür öffnete sich.

Die Sonne erwärmt die Erde. Die Erde erwärmt sich.




Note that German kochen, trocknen do not belong in this group, so the following are out:




*Die Wäsche trocknet sich.

*Das Wasser kocht sich.




Finally, there seem to be cases where the anticausative is only allowed when there is an adverbial present.




Das Buch verkauft sich gut/von selbst/wie heiße Semmeln.




Cases such as the following are not anticausative, but simple reflexives, as the subject is a genuine agent.




Die Natur reguliert sich selbst.

Die Kleider hängten sich an die Leine und trockneten sich. (in a Harry Potter universe)







share|improve this answer































    1














    German has only active and passive, but not mediopassive voice.




    active


    die Wäsche trocknet

    (the clothes are drying)

    das Fleisch kocht

    (the meat is cooking)



    passive


    die Wäsche wird getrocknet

    (the clothes are being dried)

    das Fleisch wird gekocht

    (the meat is being cooked)




    These voices do not, however, have anything to do with reflexive pronouns, such as sich in:




    Peter wäscht sich gerade.

    (Peter is just washing himself).




    The voices are especially not changed by the mere presence or absence of reflexive pronouns. Appending sich in the previous two phrases would leave the (active) voice unchanged:




    die Wäsche trocknet sich

    (the clothes are drying themselves)



    das Fleisch kocht sich

    (the meat is cooking itself)




    Even though the phrases are not grammatically wrong per se, the statements are absurd, as you may infer from the translations.






    share|improve this answer


























    • One could argue the active voice version has a passive aspect, as the laundry isn't drying itself. The wind does. Same for the meat, which isn't cooking itself. The stove does. This can drive you nuts, but one should remember the grammar categories of tense, voice, mood are somewhat artificial. Real languages have only certain combinations of those, often with additional aspects not covered by a systematic.

      – Janka
      7 hours ago














    Your Answer








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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2














    As a native speaker I can assure you, that you would never say




    Die Wäsche trocknet sich.




    I guess, the reason would be, that (a) there is just no need for the reflexive "sich" and - probably mot importantly - (b) the laundry can not be considered as kind of an independent actor that does anything for itself.



    In any case,




    Das schmeckt sich gut.




    is not - as ist were - proper german. Because that would mean, that 'das' - whatever it is - tastes itself.






    share|improve this answer
























    • The actor argument foes not fully apply, cf. "Die Wäsche verfärbt sich (z.B. wenn man zu heiß wäscht)*

      – Hagen von Eitzen
      1 hour ago
















    2














    As a native speaker I can assure you, that you would never say




    Die Wäsche trocknet sich.




    I guess, the reason would be, that (a) there is just no need for the reflexive "sich" and - probably mot importantly - (b) the laundry can not be considered as kind of an independent actor that does anything for itself.



    In any case,




    Das schmeckt sich gut.




    is not - as ist were - proper german. Because that would mean, that 'das' - whatever it is - tastes itself.






    share|improve this answer
























    • The actor argument foes not fully apply, cf. "Die Wäsche verfärbt sich (z.B. wenn man zu heiß wäscht)*

      – Hagen von Eitzen
      1 hour ago














    2












    2








    2







    As a native speaker I can assure you, that you would never say




    Die Wäsche trocknet sich.




    I guess, the reason would be, that (a) there is just no need for the reflexive "sich" and - probably mot importantly - (b) the laundry can not be considered as kind of an independent actor that does anything for itself.



    In any case,




    Das schmeckt sich gut.




    is not - as ist were - proper german. Because that would mean, that 'das' - whatever it is - tastes itself.






    share|improve this answer













    As a native speaker I can assure you, that you would never say




    Die Wäsche trocknet sich.




    I guess, the reason would be, that (a) there is just no need for the reflexive "sich" and - probably mot importantly - (b) the laundry can not be considered as kind of an independent actor that does anything for itself.



    In any case,




    Das schmeckt sich gut.




    is not - as ist were - proper german. Because that would mean, that 'das' - whatever it is - tastes itself.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 8 hours ago









    magnus1969magnus1969

    32124




    32124













    • The actor argument foes not fully apply, cf. "Die Wäsche verfärbt sich (z.B. wenn man zu heiß wäscht)*

      – Hagen von Eitzen
      1 hour ago



















    • The actor argument foes not fully apply, cf. "Die Wäsche verfärbt sich (z.B. wenn man zu heiß wäscht)*

      – Hagen von Eitzen
      1 hour ago

















    The actor argument foes not fully apply, cf. "Die Wäsche verfärbt sich (z.B. wenn man zu heiß wäscht)*

    – Hagen von Eitzen
    1 hour ago





    The actor argument foes not fully apply, cf. "Die Wäsche verfärbt sich (z.B. wenn man zu heiß wäscht)*

    – Hagen von Eitzen
    1 hour ago











    2














    English and German both have verbs participating in causative alternation.




    She was drying her clothes. Her clothes were drying.

    Sie trocknete ihre Kleider. Ihre Kleider trockneten.




    In the second variant (called anticausative), the object of the first or causative variant has become a subject. That's parallel to what happens in the passive. However, the removal of the causative component changes the meaning: Whereas actives and passives are synonymous (disregarding certain complications), causatives and anticausatives are not. The above sentences describe different situations.



    Moreover, causative alternation is a lexical phenomenon: A few verbs allow it, but most will not. This is different in the passive, which applies to the whole class of transitive verbs.



    The lexical nature of the phenomenon is underlined by the fact that certain verbs will require a reflexive pronoun in the anticausative.




    Sie öffnete die Tür. Die Tür öffnete sich.

    Die Sonne erwärmt die Erde. Die Erde erwärmt sich.




    Note that German kochen, trocknen do not belong in this group, so the following are out:




    *Die Wäsche trocknet sich.

    *Das Wasser kocht sich.




    Finally, there seem to be cases where the anticausative is only allowed when there is an adverbial present.




    Das Buch verkauft sich gut/von selbst/wie heiße Semmeln.




    Cases such as the following are not anticausative, but simple reflexives, as the subject is a genuine agent.




    Die Natur reguliert sich selbst.

    Die Kleider hängten sich an die Leine und trockneten sich. (in a Harry Potter universe)







    share|improve this answer




























      2














      English and German both have verbs participating in causative alternation.




      She was drying her clothes. Her clothes were drying.

      Sie trocknete ihre Kleider. Ihre Kleider trockneten.




      In the second variant (called anticausative), the object of the first or causative variant has become a subject. That's parallel to what happens in the passive. However, the removal of the causative component changes the meaning: Whereas actives and passives are synonymous (disregarding certain complications), causatives and anticausatives are not. The above sentences describe different situations.



      Moreover, causative alternation is a lexical phenomenon: A few verbs allow it, but most will not. This is different in the passive, which applies to the whole class of transitive verbs.



      The lexical nature of the phenomenon is underlined by the fact that certain verbs will require a reflexive pronoun in the anticausative.




      Sie öffnete die Tür. Die Tür öffnete sich.

      Die Sonne erwärmt die Erde. Die Erde erwärmt sich.




      Note that German kochen, trocknen do not belong in this group, so the following are out:




      *Die Wäsche trocknet sich.

      *Das Wasser kocht sich.




      Finally, there seem to be cases where the anticausative is only allowed when there is an adverbial present.




      Das Buch verkauft sich gut/von selbst/wie heiße Semmeln.




      Cases such as the following are not anticausative, but simple reflexives, as the subject is a genuine agent.




      Die Natur reguliert sich selbst.

      Die Kleider hängten sich an die Leine und trockneten sich. (in a Harry Potter universe)







      share|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2







        English and German both have verbs participating in causative alternation.




        She was drying her clothes. Her clothes were drying.

        Sie trocknete ihre Kleider. Ihre Kleider trockneten.




        In the second variant (called anticausative), the object of the first or causative variant has become a subject. That's parallel to what happens in the passive. However, the removal of the causative component changes the meaning: Whereas actives and passives are synonymous (disregarding certain complications), causatives and anticausatives are not. The above sentences describe different situations.



        Moreover, causative alternation is a lexical phenomenon: A few verbs allow it, but most will not. This is different in the passive, which applies to the whole class of transitive verbs.



        The lexical nature of the phenomenon is underlined by the fact that certain verbs will require a reflexive pronoun in the anticausative.




        Sie öffnete die Tür. Die Tür öffnete sich.

        Die Sonne erwärmt die Erde. Die Erde erwärmt sich.




        Note that German kochen, trocknen do not belong in this group, so the following are out:




        *Die Wäsche trocknet sich.

        *Das Wasser kocht sich.




        Finally, there seem to be cases where the anticausative is only allowed when there is an adverbial present.




        Das Buch verkauft sich gut/von selbst/wie heiße Semmeln.




        Cases such as the following are not anticausative, but simple reflexives, as the subject is a genuine agent.




        Die Natur reguliert sich selbst.

        Die Kleider hängten sich an die Leine und trockneten sich. (in a Harry Potter universe)







        share|improve this answer













        English and German both have verbs participating in causative alternation.




        She was drying her clothes. Her clothes were drying.

        Sie trocknete ihre Kleider. Ihre Kleider trockneten.




        In the second variant (called anticausative), the object of the first or causative variant has become a subject. That's parallel to what happens in the passive. However, the removal of the causative component changes the meaning: Whereas actives and passives are synonymous (disregarding certain complications), causatives and anticausatives are not. The above sentences describe different situations.



        Moreover, causative alternation is a lexical phenomenon: A few verbs allow it, but most will not. This is different in the passive, which applies to the whole class of transitive verbs.



        The lexical nature of the phenomenon is underlined by the fact that certain verbs will require a reflexive pronoun in the anticausative.




        Sie öffnete die Tür. Die Tür öffnete sich.

        Die Sonne erwärmt die Erde. Die Erde erwärmt sich.




        Note that German kochen, trocknen do not belong in this group, so the following are out:




        *Die Wäsche trocknet sich.

        *Das Wasser kocht sich.




        Finally, there seem to be cases where the anticausative is only allowed when there is an adverbial present.




        Das Buch verkauft sich gut/von selbst/wie heiße Semmeln.




        Cases such as the following are not anticausative, but simple reflexives, as the subject is a genuine agent.




        Die Natur reguliert sich selbst.

        Die Kleider hängten sich an die Leine und trockneten sich. (in a Harry Potter universe)








        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 6 hours ago









        David VogtDavid Vogt

        5,2571332




        5,2571332























            1














            German has only active and passive, but not mediopassive voice.




            active


            die Wäsche trocknet

            (the clothes are drying)

            das Fleisch kocht

            (the meat is cooking)



            passive


            die Wäsche wird getrocknet

            (the clothes are being dried)

            das Fleisch wird gekocht

            (the meat is being cooked)




            These voices do not, however, have anything to do with reflexive pronouns, such as sich in:




            Peter wäscht sich gerade.

            (Peter is just washing himself).




            The voices are especially not changed by the mere presence or absence of reflexive pronouns. Appending sich in the previous two phrases would leave the (active) voice unchanged:




            die Wäsche trocknet sich

            (the clothes are drying themselves)



            das Fleisch kocht sich

            (the meat is cooking itself)




            Even though the phrases are not grammatically wrong per se, the statements are absurd, as you may infer from the translations.






            share|improve this answer


























            • One could argue the active voice version has a passive aspect, as the laundry isn't drying itself. The wind does. Same for the meat, which isn't cooking itself. The stove does. This can drive you nuts, but one should remember the grammar categories of tense, voice, mood are somewhat artificial. Real languages have only certain combinations of those, often with additional aspects not covered by a systematic.

              – Janka
              7 hours ago


















            1














            German has only active and passive, but not mediopassive voice.




            active


            die Wäsche trocknet

            (the clothes are drying)

            das Fleisch kocht

            (the meat is cooking)



            passive


            die Wäsche wird getrocknet

            (the clothes are being dried)

            das Fleisch wird gekocht

            (the meat is being cooked)




            These voices do not, however, have anything to do with reflexive pronouns, such as sich in:




            Peter wäscht sich gerade.

            (Peter is just washing himself).




            The voices are especially not changed by the mere presence or absence of reflexive pronouns. Appending sich in the previous two phrases would leave the (active) voice unchanged:




            die Wäsche trocknet sich

            (the clothes are drying themselves)



            das Fleisch kocht sich

            (the meat is cooking itself)




            Even though the phrases are not grammatically wrong per se, the statements are absurd, as you may infer from the translations.






            share|improve this answer


























            • One could argue the active voice version has a passive aspect, as the laundry isn't drying itself. The wind does. Same for the meat, which isn't cooking itself. The stove does. This can drive you nuts, but one should remember the grammar categories of tense, voice, mood are somewhat artificial. Real languages have only certain combinations of those, often with additional aspects not covered by a systematic.

              – Janka
              7 hours ago
















            1












            1








            1







            German has only active and passive, but not mediopassive voice.




            active


            die Wäsche trocknet

            (the clothes are drying)

            das Fleisch kocht

            (the meat is cooking)



            passive


            die Wäsche wird getrocknet

            (the clothes are being dried)

            das Fleisch wird gekocht

            (the meat is being cooked)




            These voices do not, however, have anything to do with reflexive pronouns, such as sich in:




            Peter wäscht sich gerade.

            (Peter is just washing himself).




            The voices are especially not changed by the mere presence or absence of reflexive pronouns. Appending sich in the previous two phrases would leave the (active) voice unchanged:




            die Wäsche trocknet sich

            (the clothes are drying themselves)



            das Fleisch kocht sich

            (the meat is cooking itself)




            Even though the phrases are not grammatically wrong per se, the statements are absurd, as you may infer from the translations.






            share|improve this answer















            German has only active and passive, but not mediopassive voice.




            active


            die Wäsche trocknet

            (the clothes are drying)

            das Fleisch kocht

            (the meat is cooking)



            passive


            die Wäsche wird getrocknet

            (the clothes are being dried)

            das Fleisch wird gekocht

            (the meat is being cooked)




            These voices do not, however, have anything to do with reflexive pronouns, such as sich in:




            Peter wäscht sich gerade.

            (Peter is just washing himself).




            The voices are especially not changed by the mere presence or absence of reflexive pronouns. Appending sich in the previous two phrases would leave the (active) voice unchanged:




            die Wäsche trocknet sich

            (the clothes are drying themselves)



            das Fleisch kocht sich

            (the meat is cooking itself)




            Even though the phrases are not grammatically wrong per se, the statements are absurd, as you may infer from the translations.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 7 hours ago

























            answered 7 hours ago









            Björn FriedrichBjörn Friedrich

            6,38611035




            6,38611035













            • One could argue the active voice version has a passive aspect, as the laundry isn't drying itself. The wind does. Same for the meat, which isn't cooking itself. The stove does. This can drive you nuts, but one should remember the grammar categories of tense, voice, mood are somewhat artificial. Real languages have only certain combinations of those, often with additional aspects not covered by a systematic.

              – Janka
              7 hours ago





















            • One could argue the active voice version has a passive aspect, as the laundry isn't drying itself. The wind does. Same for the meat, which isn't cooking itself. The stove does. This can drive you nuts, but one should remember the grammar categories of tense, voice, mood are somewhat artificial. Real languages have only certain combinations of those, often with additional aspects not covered by a systematic.

              – Janka
              7 hours ago



















            One could argue the active voice version has a passive aspect, as the laundry isn't drying itself. The wind does. Same for the meat, which isn't cooking itself. The stove does. This can drive you nuts, but one should remember the grammar categories of tense, voice, mood are somewhat artificial. Real languages have only certain combinations of those, often with additional aspects not covered by a systematic.

            – Janka
            7 hours ago







            One could argue the active voice version has a passive aspect, as the laundry isn't drying itself. The wind does. Same for the meat, which isn't cooking itself. The stove does. This can drive you nuts, but one should remember the grammar categories of tense, voice, mood are somewhat artificial. Real languages have only certain combinations of those, often with additional aspects not covered by a systematic.

            – Janka
            7 hours ago




















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