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3












$begingroup$


Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.



I can do this:



Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$



I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$



However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$



In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.



So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.



And my question is,



Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





















    3












    $begingroup$


    Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.



    I can do this:



    Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$



    I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$



    However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$



    In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.



    So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.



    And my question is,



    Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$

















      3












      3








      3


      2



      $begingroup$


      Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.



      I can do this:



      Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$



      I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$



      However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$



      In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.



      So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.



      And my question is,



      Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.



      I can do this:



      Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$



      I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$



      However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$



      In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.



      So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.



      And my question is,



      Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)







      exponentiation






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited 2 days ago







      Eduardo S.

















      asked 2 days ago









      Eduardo S.Eduardo S.

      1,1726 silver badges24 bronze badges




      1,1726 silver badges24 bronze badges

























          3 Answers
          3






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          5













          $begingroup$

          There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
          $$
          x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
          $$

          where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.



          We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)



          We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.





          All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.



          Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.



          We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.



          We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.



          We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.



          At this point, our best lower bound is
          $$
          a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
          $$

          and our best upper bound is
          $$
          a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
          $$






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$























            3













            $begingroup$

            The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is



            $$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$



            Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
            $$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
            }}$$

            which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$























              2













              $begingroup$

              A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.



              A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















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                3 Answers
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                3 Answers
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                active

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                active

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                5













                $begingroup$

                There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
                $$
                x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
                $$

                where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.



                We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)



                We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.





                All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.



                Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.



                We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.



                We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.



                We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.



                At this point, our best lower bound is
                $$
                a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
                $$

                and our best upper bound is
                $$
                a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
                $$






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$




















                  5













                  $begingroup$

                  There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
                  $$
                  x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
                  $$

                  where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.



                  We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)



                  We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.





                  All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.



                  Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.



                  We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.



                  We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.



                  We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.



                  At this point, our best lower bound is
                  $$
                  a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
                  $$

                  and our best upper bound is
                  $$
                  a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
                  $$






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$


















                    5














                    5










                    5







                    $begingroup$

                    There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
                    $$
                    x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
                    $$

                    where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.



                    We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)



                    We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.





                    All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.



                    Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.



                    We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.



                    We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.



                    We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.



                    At this point, our best lower bound is
                    $$
                    a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
                    $$

                    and our best upper bound is
                    $$
                    a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
                    $$






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
                    $$
                    x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
                    $$

                    where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.



                    We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)



                    We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.





                    All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.



                    Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.



                    We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.



                    We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.



                    We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.



                    At this point, our best lower bound is
                    $$
                    a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
                    $$

                    and our best upper bound is
                    $$
                    a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
                    $$







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered 2 days ago









                    Misha LavrovMisha Lavrov

                    53.3k7 gold badges61 silver badges114 bronze badges




                    53.3k7 gold badges61 silver badges114 bronze badges




























                        3













                        $begingroup$

                        The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is



                        $$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$



                        Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
                        $$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
                        }}$$

                        which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$




















                          3













                          $begingroup$

                          The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is



                          $$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$



                          Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
                          $$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
                          }}$$

                          which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$


















                            3














                            3










                            3







                            $begingroup$

                            The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is



                            $$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$



                            Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
                            $$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
                            }}$$

                            which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is



                            $$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$



                            Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
                            $$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
                            }}$$

                            which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.







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                            answered 2 days ago









                            Robert IsraelRobert Israel

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                                $begingroup$

                                A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.



                                A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$




















                                  2













                                  $begingroup$

                                  A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.



                                  A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$


















                                    2














                                    2










                                    2







                                    $begingroup$

                                    A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.



                                    A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$



                                    A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.



                                    A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.







                                    share|cite|improve this answer












                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                    share|cite|improve this answer










                                    answered 2 days ago









                                    Simply Beautiful ArtSimply Beautiful Art

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                                    53.5k6 gold badges85 silver badges195 bronze badges

































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