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Why does this work? What is the best exponent to approximate the logarithm?
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$begingroup$
Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.
I can do this:
Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$
I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$
However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$
In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.
So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.
And my question is,
Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)
exponentiation
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.
I can do this:
Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$
I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$
However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$
In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.
So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.
And my question is,
Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)
exponentiation
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.
I can do this:
Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$
I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$
However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$
In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.
So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.
And my question is,
Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)
exponentiation
$endgroup$
Suppose i want to get a upper bound of $log_53$ without other tools than elementary algebra.
I can do this:
Let $x = log_53$, then $5^x=3$
I raise both sides to $4$, then: $(5^x)^4 = 3^4$ And since $3^4 < 5^3$ it follows that $5^{4x} < 5^3$, then $x < frac{3}{4}$
However, if i raise both sides to $13$ is equal to: $(5^x)^{13} = 3^{13}$ And since $3^{13} < 5^9$ it follows that $5^{13x} < 5^9$, then $x < frac{9}{13}$
In this case with exponent $13$ the approximation is better.
So, with different exponent i can get different upper bounds. Similarly, the same can be done with the lower bound.
And my question is,
Given $log_ab = x$, what is the best exponent $m$ such that $(a^x)^m = b^m$ gives the better approximation for both cases?(Lower and upper bounds)
exponentiation
exponentiation
edited 2 days ago
Eduardo S.
asked 2 days ago
Eduardo S.Eduardo S.
1,1726 silver badges24 bronze badges
1,1726 silver badges24 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
$$
x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
$$
where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.
We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)
We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.
All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.
Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.
We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.
We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.
We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.
At this point, our best lower bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
$$
and our best upper bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
$$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is
$$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$
Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
$$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
}}$$
which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.
A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
$$
x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
$$
where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.
We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)
We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.
All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.
Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.
We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.
We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.
We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.
At this point, our best lower bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
$$
and our best upper bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
$$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
$$
x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
$$
where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.
We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)
We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.
All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.
Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.
We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.
We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.
We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.
At this point, our best lower bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
$$
and our best upper bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
$$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
$$
x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
$$
where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.
We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)
We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.
All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.
Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.
We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.
We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.
We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.
At this point, our best lower bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
$$
and our best upper bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
$$
$endgroup$
There's no "best exponent", because you can always get better and better exponents, but you can use continued fractions to do this systematically. With continued fractions, we will write $x$ in the form
$$
x = a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3 + cfrac1{a_4 + dots}}}}.
$$
where $a_0, a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, dots$ is an infinite sequence of natural numbers.
We can truncate this sequence at any point, getting upper or lower bounds depending on where we stop. (If you stop at an even $a_k$, you get a lower bound; if you stop at an odd $a_k$, you get an upper bound.)
We compute the sequence iteratively: $a_0$ is $lfloor xrfloor$ (the greatest integer less than $x$) and to find $a_1$ onward you just replace $x$ by $frac{1}{x - a_0}$.
All this is abstract and general, so here is how it will go in your example.
Let $x = log_5(3)$. Then we can estimate that $0 < x < 1$ (because $5^0 < 3 < 5^1$) so $a_0 = lfloor log_5(3)rfloor = 0$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_5(3)} = log_3(5)$.
We can estimate that $1 < log_3(5) < 2$, because $3^1 < 5 < 3^2$, so $a_1 = lfloor log_3(5)rfloor = 1$, and we will keep going with $frac{1}{log_3(5)-1} = frac1{log_3(5/3)} = log_{5/3}(3)$.
We can estimate that $2 < log_{5/3}(3) < 3$, because $(frac53)^2 < 3 < (frac53)^3$ (this expands to $25 < 27$ but $81 < 125$), so $a_2 = lfloor log_{5/3}(3) rfloor = 2$, and we will keep going with $frac1{log_{5/3}(3) - 2} = frac1{log_{5/3}(27/25)} = log_{27/25}(frac53)$.
We could estimate that $6 < log_{27/25}(frac53) < 7$, because $(frac{27}{25})^6 < frac53 < (frac{27}{25})^7$, but this has gotten tricky to check: it involves checking that $3^{19} < 5^{13}$ but $3^{22} > 5^{15}$. This gives us $a_3 = 6$, but maybe we'd better quit while we're ahead, or get a computer.
At this point, our best lower bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac12} = frac23
$$
and our best upper bound is
$$
a_0 + cfrac1{a_1 + cfrac1{a_2 + cfrac1{a_3}}} = 0 + cfrac1{1 + cfrac1{2 + cfrac16}} = frac{13}{19}.
$$
answered 2 days ago
Misha LavrovMisha Lavrov
53.3k7 gold badges61 silver badges114 bronze badges
53.3k7 gold badges61 silver badges114 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is
$$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$
Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
$$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
}}$$
which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is
$$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$
Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
$$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
}}$$
which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is
$$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$
Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
$$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
}}$$
which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.
$endgroup$
The rational number $p/q$ (with $p, q$ positive integers) satisfies $p/q < log_a b$ iff $p < q log_a b$ iff $a^p < b^q$, and similarly $p/q > log_a b$ iff $a^p > b^q$. The best rational approximations of $log_a b$ (or any irrational number) can be obtained using continued fractions. For example, the continued fraction of $log_5(3)$ is
$$ log_5(3) = 1/(2+1/(6+1/(1+1/(1+1/(1+1/(3+ldots))))))$$
Truncating the continued fraction to a finite number of terms gives you the convergents of the continued fraction. The first few in this case are
$$ 0,1,frac{2}{3},{frac{13}{19}},{frac{15}{22}},{frac{28}{41}},{frac{43}{63
}}$$
which are alternately lower bounds and upper bounds for $log_5(3)$.
answered 2 days ago
Robert IsraelRobert Israel
346k23 gold badges241 silver badges503 bronze badges
346k23 gold badges241 silver badges503 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.
A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.
$endgroup$
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$begingroup$
A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.
A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.
$endgroup$
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$begingroup$
A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.
A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.
$endgroup$
A much less guessing approach while still staying elementary is to use bisection. Essentially, we can start with $0<log_5(3)<1$, then we see how $5$ compares to $3^2$ to deduce that $1<2log_5(3)<2$, then we compare $5^3$ to $3^4$ to deduce that $2<4log_5(3)<3$, and so on.
A couple of quick approximations can easily be coded this way: example code.
answered 2 days ago
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