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Can the Spell Alter Self allow a Kenku to Speak Normally?

Is Alter Self strictly better than Disguise Self as at-will invocations?Can Disguise Self be use to change the appearance of your race or sex?What's the difference between Realistic Likeness and Disguise Self?Why can I change my height with Alter Self but not my size?What spell can disguise a PC as a particular Yuan-ti?Can one use Alter Self to assume the form of a Skeleton?Can the Alter Self spell simulate bioluminescence?How does a Doppelganger monster's Shapechanger trait differ from the Changeling playable race's Change Appearance trait?Is this homebrew 'Outsider' race balanced?Can the Alter Self spell grant you a tail or otherwise stop partway through a transformation into another race?

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4

$begingroup$

The Alter Self spell says:

Change Appearance. You transform your appearance. You decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any.

(emphasis mine)

Would changing the sound of your voice allow a Kenku caster to defy its racial curse for that hour?

dnd-5e spells kenku

share|improve this question

edited 8 hours ago

RallozarX

asked 8 hours ago

RallozarXRallozarX

91811 silver badge1616 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  You are referring to a Kenku that has had their vocal chords removed? Or are you under the impression that Kenku don't have vocal chords?
  $endgroup$
  – the dark wanderer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


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  $begingroup$
  @thedarkwanderer I think his real question is, can a Kenku defy its racial curse and speak like other races do with the use of Alter Self...
  $endgroup$
  – Slagmoth
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


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  @thedarkwanderer He's referring to the fact that Kenku are only able to speak via mimicry of sounds or speech that they have heard in the past. See here: dndbeyond.com/races/kenku#HopelessPlagiarists
  $endgroup$
  – guildsbounty
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


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  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Apologies, it is about the racial curse, I've edited the question to reflect that.
  $endgroup$
  – RallozarX
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Are you the DM or the player?
  $endgroup$
  – Slagmoth
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 3 more comments

4

$begingroup$

The Alter Self spell says:

Change Appearance. You transform your appearance. You decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any.

(emphasis mine)

Would changing the sound of your voice allow a Kenku caster to defy its racial curse for that hour?

dnd-5e spells kenku

share|improve this question

edited 8 hours ago

RallozarX

asked 8 hours ago

RallozarXRallozarX

91811 silver badge1616 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  You are referring to a Kenku that has had their vocal chords removed? Or are you under the impression that Kenku don't have vocal chords?
  $endgroup$
  – the dark wanderer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @thedarkwanderer I think his real question is, can a Kenku defy its racial curse and speak like other races do with the use of Alter Self...
  $endgroup$
  – Slagmoth
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @thedarkwanderer He's referring to the fact that Kenku are only able to speak via mimicry of sounds or speech that they have heard in the past. See here: dndbeyond.com/races/kenku#HopelessPlagiarists
  $endgroup$
  – guildsbounty
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Apologies, it is about the racial curse, I've edited the question to reflect that.
  $endgroup$
  – RallozarX
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Are you the DM or the player?
  $endgroup$
  – Slagmoth
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

 | 
show 3 more comments

$begingroup$

The Alter Self spell says:

Change Appearance. You transform your appearance. You decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any.

(emphasis mine)

Would changing the sound of your voice allow a Kenku caster to defy its racial curse for that hour?

dnd-5e spells kenku

share|improve this question

edited 8 hours ago

RallozarX

asked 8 hours ago

RallozarXRallozarX

91811 silver badge1616 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this question

edited 8 hours ago

RallozarX

asked 8 hours ago

RallozarXRallozarX

91811 silver badge1616 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited 8 hours ago

RallozarX

asked 8 hours ago

RallozarXRallozarX

91811 silver badge1616 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

RallozarXRallozarX

91811 silver badge1616 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

RallozarXRallozarX

91811 silver badge1616 bronze badges

2 Answers
2

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7

$begingroup$

No

In fact, that clause of alter self does absolutely nothing for a Kenku, as they can already alter the sound of their voice with their Mimicry trait, unless a GM rules discerning imitations made via alter self (which has no particular rules) functions differently than discerning imitations made via Mimicry.

Furthermore, even if you had the freedom to change more than just the sound of your voice, you still couldn't use this to bypass your curse because the rules for the Kenku race's languages trait say you can speak only by using mimicry and alter self specifies none of the changes can alter any of your statistics, of which said restriction is a part.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

the dark wandererthe dark wanderer

41.8k77 gold badges108108 silver badges218218 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I think this is wrong, since it misses the point that Kenkus, in fact, do not even have a voice to begin with.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Catar4 The kenku's 'languages' trait indicates that, contrary to their fluff, kenku totally speak (they can only speak via their mimicry trait, which unambiguously qualifies using the mimicry trait as speaking). If you mean to draw a distinction between being able to speak and having a personal voice, that's fine, but kind of irrelevant to the question-- why get into subjective setting cosmology details that will surely vary between campaigns when there is a clear unambiguous explicit answer?
  $endgroup$
  – the dark wanderer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  The language trait is there only for the character to be able to determine which language they can read and write. I'll agree that the rest is fuzzy, which is why I focus on the last part of the racial curse: "Finally, to ensure that the kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took away their voices.". I think this sentence is key to answering this question and trying to argue that point to be futile. For once, the wording (the keyword voice) is unequivocal.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Catar4 While it's unclear what is meant by "took away their voices", the kenku absolutely produce sounds from their mouths. Functionally speaking, that is their "voice". It's just that it's not specific to them, but a mimicry of what they've heard.
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  That is the part that is entirely subjective. I personally agree that it can be interpretated both ways ... but I do stop the logical leaps to the one key sentence about them not having a voice of their own. But still, I think I'll add an addendum to my answer on that one.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

1

$begingroup$

There is a difference between "having a voice" and "the sound of a voice" ... since the spell does not mention anything about the ability to communicate and/or speak languages, then alter self would not in any way free a Kenku from its racial curse.

From the description of the curse:

Finally, to ensure that the kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took away their voices.

They do not have a voice. You can't change the sound of something that does not exist.

---

Addendum: We're having debates in the comments about Kenkus having a voice or not, since it is kind of possible to go both ways, subjectively speaking.

I personally chose to focus on "the kenkus have had their voices removed, so they technically do not have a voice".

Others prefer to think they still have a voice, since they can mimick sounds they heard, including other beings' voices.

So in the context of that question which is about changing the sound of one's voice (alter self is the name of the spell after all) I see an additional argument to support my answer/interpretation:

• If you can only mimick sounds made by others and are unable to produce new sounds, by yourself, how would you be able to change the sounds of your mimicks ?

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 8 hours ago

Catar4Catar4

1,99155 silver badges1818 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Given the wording, I would say that they function like audio recorders, producing only what sounds they have heard, as they heard them. So while they dont have voices, they can "speak" by producing the words they have heard in the voices they heard. (which would be awkward if they have only heard short sentences from each individual)
  $endgroup$
  – Journer
  18 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

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7

$begingroup$

No

In fact, that clause of alter self does absolutely nothing for a Kenku, as they can already alter the sound of their voice with their Mimicry trait, unless a GM rules discerning imitations made via alter self (which has no particular rules) functions differently than discerning imitations made via Mimicry.

Furthermore, even if you had the freedom to change more than just the sound of your voice, you still couldn't use this to bypass your curse because the rules for the Kenku race's languages trait say you can speak only by using mimicry and alter self specifies none of the changes can alter any of your statistics, of which said restriction is a part.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

the dark wandererthe dark wanderer

41.8k77 gold badges108108 silver badges218218 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I think this is wrong, since it misses the point that Kenkus, in fact, do not even have a voice to begin with.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Catar4 The kenku's 'languages' trait indicates that, contrary to their fluff, kenku totally speak (they can only speak via their mimicry trait, which unambiguously qualifies using the mimicry trait as speaking). If you mean to draw a distinction between being able to speak and having a personal voice, that's fine, but kind of irrelevant to the question-- why get into subjective setting cosmology details that will surely vary between campaigns when there is a clear unambiguous explicit answer?
  $endgroup$
  – the dark wanderer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  The language trait is there only for the character to be able to determine which language they can read and write. I'll agree that the rest is fuzzy, which is why I focus on the last part of the racial curse: "Finally, to ensure that the kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took away their voices.". I think this sentence is key to answering this question and trying to argue that point to be futile. For once, the wording (the keyword voice) is unequivocal.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Catar4 While it's unclear what is meant by "took away their voices", the kenku absolutely produce sounds from their mouths. Functionally speaking, that is their "voice". It's just that it's not specific to them, but a mimicry of what they've heard.
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  That is the part that is entirely subjective. I personally agree that it can be interpretated both ways ... but I do stop the logical leaps to the one key sentence about them not having a voice of their own. But still, I think I'll add an addendum to my answer on that one.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

7

$begingroup$

No

In fact, that clause of alter self does absolutely nothing for a Kenku, as they can already alter the sound of their voice with their Mimicry trait, unless a GM rules discerning imitations made via alter self (which has no particular rules) functions differently than discerning imitations made via Mimicry.

Furthermore, even if you had the freedom to change more than just the sound of your voice, you still couldn't use this to bypass your curse because the rules for the Kenku race's languages trait say you can speak only by using mimicry and alter self specifies none of the changes can alter any of your statistics, of which said restriction is a part.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

the dark wandererthe dark wanderer

41.8k77 gold badges108108 silver badges218218 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  I think this is wrong, since it misses the point that Kenkus, in fact, do not even have a voice to begin with.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Catar4 The kenku's 'languages' trait indicates that, contrary to their fluff, kenku totally speak (they can only speak via their mimicry trait, which unambiguously qualifies using the mimicry trait as speaking). If you mean to draw a distinction between being able to speak and having a personal voice, that's fine, but kind of irrelevant to the question-- why get into subjective setting cosmology details that will surely vary between campaigns when there is a clear unambiguous explicit answer?
  $endgroup$
  – the dark wanderer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  The language trait is there only for the character to be able to determine which language they can read and write. I'll agree that the rest is fuzzy, which is why I focus on the last part of the racial curse: "Finally, to ensure that the kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took away their voices.". I think this sentence is key to answering this question and trying to argue that point to be futile. For once, the wording (the keyword voice) is unequivocal.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @Catar4 While it's unclear what is meant by "took away their voices", the kenku absolutely produce sounds from their mouths. Functionally speaking, that is their "voice". It's just that it's not specific to them, but a mimicry of what they've heard.
  $endgroup$
  – NautArch
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  That is the part that is entirely subjective. I personally agree that it can be interpretated both ways ... but I do stop the logical leaps to the one key sentence about them not having a voice of their own. But still, I think I'll add an addendum to my answer on that one.
  $endgroup$
  – Catar4
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

No

In fact, that clause of alter self does absolutely nothing for a Kenku, as they can already alter the sound of their voice with their Mimicry trait, unless a GM rules discerning imitations made via alter self (which has no particular rules) functions differently than discerning imitations made via Mimicry.

Furthermore, even if you had the freedom to change more than just the sound of your voice, you still couldn't use this to bypass your curse because the rules for the Kenku race's languages trait say you can speak only by using mimicry and alter self specifies none of the changes can alter any of your statistics, of which said restriction is a part.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

the dark wandererthe dark wanderer

41.8k77 gold badges108108 silver badges218218 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

the dark wandererthe dark wanderer

41.8k77 gold badges108108 silver badges218218 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

the dark wandererthe dark wanderer

41.8k77 gold badges108108 silver badges218218 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

the dark wandererthe dark wanderer

41.8k77 gold badges108108 silver badges218218 bronze badges

1

$begingroup$

There is a difference between "having a voice" and "the sound of a voice" ... since the spell does not mention anything about the ability to communicate and/or speak languages, then alter self would not in any way free a Kenku from its racial curse.

From the description of the curse:

Finally, to ensure that the kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took away their voices.

They do not have a voice. You can't change the sound of something that does not exist.

---

Addendum: We're having debates in the comments about Kenkus having a voice or not, since it is kind of possible to go both ways, subjectively speaking.

I personally chose to focus on "the kenkus have had their voices removed, so they technically do not have a voice".

Others prefer to think they still have a voice, since they can mimick sounds they heard, including other beings' voices.

So in the context of that question which is about changing the sound of one's voice (alter self is the name of the spell after all) I see an additional argument to support my answer/interpretation:

• If you can only mimick sounds made by others and are unable to produce new sounds, by yourself, how would you be able to change the sounds of your mimicks ?

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 8 hours ago

Catar4Catar4

1,99155 silver badges1818 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Given the wording, I would say that they function like audio recorders, producing only what sounds they have heard, as they heard them. So while they dont have voices, they can "speak" by producing the words they have heard in the voices they heard. (which would be awkward if they have only heard short sentences from each individual)
  $endgroup$
  – Journer
  18 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

1

$begingroup$

There is a difference between "having a voice" and "the sound of a voice" ... since the spell does not mention anything about the ability to communicate and/or speak languages, then alter self would not in any way free a Kenku from its racial curse.

From the description of the curse:

Finally, to ensure that the kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took away their voices.

They do not have a voice. You can't change the sound of something that does not exist.

---

Addendum: We're having debates in the comments about Kenkus having a voice or not, since it is kind of possible to go both ways, subjectively speaking.

I personally chose to focus on "the kenkus have had their voices removed, so they technically do not have a voice".

Others prefer to think they still have a voice, since they can mimick sounds they heard, including other beings' voices.

So in the context of that question which is about changing the sound of one's voice (alter self is the name of the spell after all) I see an additional argument to support my answer/interpretation:

• If you can only mimick sounds made by others and are unable to produce new sounds, by yourself, how would you be able to change the sounds of your mimicks ?

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 8 hours ago

Catar4Catar4

1,99155 silver badges1818 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Given the wording, I would say that they function like audio recorders, producing only what sounds they have heard, as they heard them. So while they dont have voices, they can "speak" by producing the words they have heard in the voices they heard. (which would be awkward if they have only heard short sentences from each individual)
  $endgroup$
  – Journer
  18 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

There is a difference between "having a voice" and "the sound of a voice" ... since the spell does not mention anything about the ability to communicate and/or speak languages, then alter self would not in any way free a Kenku from its racial curse.

From the description of the curse:

Finally, to ensure that the kenku could never divulge any secrets, their master took away their voices.

They do not have a voice. You can't change the sound of something that does not exist.

---

Addendum: We're having debates in the comments about Kenkus having a voice or not, since it is kind of possible to go both ways, subjectively speaking.

I personally chose to focus on "the kenkus have had their voices removed, so they technically do not have a voice".

Others prefer to think they still have a voice, since they can mimick sounds they heard, including other beings' voices.

So in the context of that question which is about changing the sound of one's voice (alter self is the name of the spell after all) I see an additional argument to support my answer/interpretation:

• If you can only mimick sounds made by others and are unable to produce new sounds, by yourself, how would you be able to change the sounds of your mimicks ?

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 8 hours ago

Catar4Catar4

1,99155 silver badges1818 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

edited 7 hours ago

answered 8 hours ago

Catar4Catar4

1,99155 silver badges1818 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

Catar4Catar4

1,99155 silver badges1818 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

Catar4Catar4

1,99155 silver badges1818 bronze badges