How can I define good in a religion that claims no moral authority? The 2019 Stack Overflow...
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How can I define good in a religion that claims no moral authority?
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Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.
The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.
This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.
Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?
science-based society religion science
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show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.
The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.
This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.
Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?
science-based society religion science
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2
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Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
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– Frostfyre
15 hours ago
1
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That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
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– Frostfyre
14 hours ago
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"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
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– AlexP
13 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
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– conman
11 hours ago
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@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
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– Incognito
11 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
$begingroup$
Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.
The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.
This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.
Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?
science-based society religion science
$endgroup$
Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.
The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.
This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.
Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?
science-based society religion science
science-based society religion science
edited 11 hours ago
Incognito
asked 15 hours ago
IncognitoIncognito
7,978768115
7,978768115
2
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Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
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– Frostfyre
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
13 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
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@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
$endgroup$
– Incognito
11 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
2
$begingroup$
Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
13 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
$endgroup$
– Incognito
11 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
15 hours ago
$begingroup$
Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
15 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
13 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
$endgroup$
– Incognito
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
$endgroup$
– Incognito
11 hours ago
|
show 3 more comments
8 Answers
8
active
oldest
votes
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This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".
So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.
And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?
In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:
One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.
Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.
Or in the proposed world, perhaps:
Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.
Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve
They get to define what "progress" means.
They are a de facto moral authority.
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3
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And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
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– Nex Terren
14 hours ago
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And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
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– Josh Part
10 hours ago
add a comment |
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"Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.
People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".
A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:
- Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".
- The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".
- Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.
- Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.
What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.
What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.
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Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
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– Piomicron
10 hours ago
add a comment |
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“Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett
Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.
A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.
Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.
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This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
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– Ynneadwraith
13 hours ago
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I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
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– conman
11 hours ago
1
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@conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
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– Separatrix
9 hours ago
1
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@Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
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– conman
8 hours ago
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@conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
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– Separatrix
8 hours ago
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show 1 more comment
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Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.
Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:
Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.
Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.
The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.
(The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)
A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:
The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
"Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
natural affections".
It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.
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add a comment |
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You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.
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Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
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– ivanivan
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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In my view, you cannot.
Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.
To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.
It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.
Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.
Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.
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add a comment |
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A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.
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Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.
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add a comment |
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8 Answers
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8 Answers
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$begingroup$
This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".
So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.
And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?
In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:
One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.
Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.
Or in the proposed world, perhaps:
Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.
Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve
They get to define what "progress" means.
They are a de facto moral authority.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
$endgroup$
– Josh Part
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".
So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.
And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?
In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:
One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.
Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.
Or in the proposed world, perhaps:
Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.
Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve
They get to define what "progress" means.
They are a de facto moral authority.
$endgroup$
3
$begingroup$
And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
$endgroup$
– Josh Part
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".
So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.
And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?
In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:
One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.
Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.
Or in the proposed world, perhaps:
Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.
Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve
They get to define what "progress" means.
They are a de facto moral authority.
$endgroup$
This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".
So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.
And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?
In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:
One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.
Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.
Or in the proposed world, perhaps:
Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.
The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.
Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve
They get to define what "progress" means.
They are a de facto moral authority.
answered 14 hours ago
Ray ButterworthRay Butterworth
959211
959211
3
$begingroup$
And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
$endgroup$
– Josh Part
10 hours ago
add a comment |
3
$begingroup$
And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
$endgroup$
– Josh Part
10 hours ago
3
3
$begingroup$
And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
$endgroup$
– Nex Terren
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
$endgroup$
– Josh Part
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
$endgroup$
– Josh Part
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.
People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".
A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:
- Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".
- The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".
- Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.
- Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.
What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.
What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
$endgroup$
– Piomicron
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.
People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".
A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:
- Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".
- The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".
- Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.
- Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.
What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.
What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
$endgroup$
– Piomicron
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
"Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.
People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".
A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:
- Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".
- The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".
- Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.
- Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.
What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.
What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.
$endgroup$
"Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.
People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".
A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:
- Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".
- The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".
- Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.
- Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.
What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.
What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.
edited 14 hours ago
answered 14 hours ago
ElmyElmy
12.9k22362
12.9k22362
1
$begingroup$
Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
$endgroup$
– Piomicron
10 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
$endgroup$
– Piomicron
10 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
$endgroup$
– Piomicron
10 hours ago
$begingroup$
Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
$endgroup$
– Piomicron
10 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
“Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett
Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.
A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.
Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
“Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett
Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.
A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.
Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
“Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett
Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.
A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.
Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.
$endgroup$
“Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett
Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.
A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.
Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.
answered 14 hours ago
SeparatrixSeparatrix
85.6k31198332
85.6k31198332
1
$begingroup$
This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
1
$begingroup$
This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
$endgroup$
– Ynneadwraith
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
$endgroup$
– conman
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
$endgroup$
– Separatrix
8 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.
Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:
Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.
Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.
The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.
(The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)
A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:
The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
"Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
natural affections".
It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.
Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:
Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.
Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.
The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.
(The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)
A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:
The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
"Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
natural affections".
It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.
Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:
Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.
Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.
The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.
(The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)
A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:
The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
"Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
natural affections".
It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.
$endgroup$
Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.
Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:
Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.
Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.
The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.
(The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)
A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:
The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
"Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
natural affections".
It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.
answered 14 hours ago
RogerRoger
3,195420
3,195420
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.
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$begingroup$
Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
$endgroup$
– ivanivan
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
$endgroup$
– ivanivan
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.
$endgroup$
You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.
answered 14 hours ago
Mphiwe NtuliMphiwe Ntuli
692
692
$begingroup$
Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
$endgroup$
– ivanivan
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
$endgroup$
– ivanivan
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
$endgroup$
– ivanivan
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
$endgroup$
– ivanivan
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In my view, you cannot.
Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.
To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.
It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.
Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.
Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In my view, you cannot.
Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.
To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.
It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.
Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.
Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In my view, you cannot.
Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.
To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.
It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.
Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.
Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.
$endgroup$
In my view, you cannot.
Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.
To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.
It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.
Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.
Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.
answered 14 hours ago
openendopenend
2,34211744
2,34211744
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.
$endgroup$
A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.
answered 8 hours ago
DavislorDavislor
2,936714
2,936714
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.
$endgroup$
Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.
answered 8 hours ago
rackandbonemanrackandboneman
28114
28114
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
15 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
14 hours ago
$begingroup$
"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
13 hours ago
3
$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago
$begingroup$
@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
$endgroup$
– Incognito
11 hours ago