How can I define good in a religion that claims no moral authority? The 2019 Stack Overflow...

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How can I define good in a religion that claims no moral authority?



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Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.



The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.



This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.



Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?










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  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    15 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    14 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    13 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
    $endgroup$
    – Incognito
    11 hours ago
















12












$begingroup$


Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.



The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.



This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.



Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    15 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    14 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    13 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
    $endgroup$
    – Incognito
    11 hours ago














12












12








12


2



$begingroup$


Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.



The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.



This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.



Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




Faith is defined as a belief in God based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Religion and science can be seen to oppose one another due to conflicts between people of those practices. In my world, I have a polytheistic technocracy that has joined those opposing forces. Rather than religion competing with science, religion is science.



The universe is considered to be god itself, master of a grand design. The laws of that universe ( law of gravity, relativity, therodynamics, etc), are viewed as smaller deities under the main god. There are numerous gods who control the laws of the universe and define how it works. When humans study the processes and come to understand more through scientific research, these "gods" reward then by revealing themselves through that knowledge. New gods are constantly being discovered as scientific knowledge grows. As old theories are updated or replaced, that particular god doesn't die, but becomes better understood. This creates a polytheistic pantheon of gods, some of which are equal to each other or subjected to a higher god. All of which is under the main deity, the universe.



This religion worships a higher power that values scientific achievement and discovery. It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress. In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation.



Every religion needs a way to define good, or a set of principles to adhere to. As a religion that values research over morality, this can be a problem. I need to refine this concept to appear more acceptable as a religion than a philosophy in order to make this vision complete. How can I get this done?







science-based society religion science






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 11 hours ago







Incognito

















asked 15 hours ago









IncognitoIncognito

7,978768115




7,978768115








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    15 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    14 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    13 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
    $endgroup$
    – Incognito
    11 hours ago














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    15 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
    $endgroup$
    – Frostfyre
    14 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    "In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
    $endgroup$
    – AlexP
    13 hours ago






  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    11 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
    $endgroup$
    – Incognito
    11 hours ago








2




2




$begingroup$
Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
15 hours ago




$begingroup$
Reminder to close-voters: The problem cannot be fixed if the OP is not made aware of it.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
15 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
14 hours ago




$begingroup$
That being said, I think I could provide a satisfactory answer to the question How could I get this done?, but the other requires analyzing your entire premise and deciding for myself what needs to change/improve. That makes (at least half) this question primarily opinion-based.
$endgroup$
– Frostfyre
14 hours ago












$begingroup$
"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
13 hours ago




$begingroup$
"In this way, it eliminates faith by making dogma depend on testing theories and experimentation": please give an example of such dogmatic teaching, and how it has changed over time. In my mind, a set of dogmatic teachings or principles which are dependent on experiment has the same semantic value as the famous colorless green ideas.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
13 hours ago




3




3




$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
Sigh... the whole "religion and science hate eachother" trope gets old, especially given the very large number of famous scientists (past and present) who have believed in God....
$endgroup$
– conman
11 hours ago












$begingroup$
@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
$endgroup$
– Incognito
11 hours ago




$begingroup$
@conman I did say "can" be seen to oppose one another, not that they necessarily have to.
$endgroup$
– Incognito
11 hours ago










8 Answers
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This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".



So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.



And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?



In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:




  • One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.


  • Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.



Or in the proposed world, perhaps:




  • Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.


  • There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.



The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.



Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve



They get to define what "progress" means.



They are a de facto moral authority.






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  • 3




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    And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
    $endgroup$
    – Nex Terren
    14 hours ago










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    And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
    $endgroup$
    – Josh Part
    10 hours ago



















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"Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.



People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".



A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:




  • Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".

  • The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".

  • Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.

  • Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.


What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.



What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.






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    Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
    $endgroup$
    – Piomicron
    10 hours ago



















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“Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett




Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.



A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.



Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.






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  • 1




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    This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
    $endgroup$
    – Ynneadwraith
    13 hours ago










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    I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
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    – conman
    11 hours ago






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    @conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
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    – Separatrix
    9 hours ago






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    @Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
    $endgroup$
    – conman
    8 hours ago










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    @conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
    $endgroup$
    – Separatrix
    8 hours ago





















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Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.



Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:




  • Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.


  • Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.


  • The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.



(The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)



A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:




The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
"Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
natural affections".




It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.






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    0












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    You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.






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    $endgroup$













    • $begingroup$
      Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
      $endgroup$
      – ivanivan
      2 hours ago



















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    In my view, you cannot.



    Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.



    To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.



    It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.



    Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.



    Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.






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      A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.






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        0












        $begingroup$

        Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.






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          8 Answers
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          8 Answers
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          19












          $begingroup$

          This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".



          So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.



          And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?



          In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:




          • One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.


          • Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.



          Or in the proposed world, perhaps:




          • Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.


          • There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.



          The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.



          Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve



          They get to define what "progress" means.



          They are a de facto moral authority.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$









          • 3




            $begingroup$
            And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
            $endgroup$
            – Nex Terren
            14 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
            $endgroup$
            – Josh Part
            10 hours ago
















          19












          $begingroup$

          This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".



          So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.



          And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?



          In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:




          • One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.


          • Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.



          Or in the proposed world, perhaps:




          • Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.


          • There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.



          The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.



          Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve



          They get to define what "progress" means.



          They are a de facto moral authority.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$









          • 3




            $begingroup$
            And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
            $endgroup$
            – Nex Terren
            14 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
            $endgroup$
            – Josh Part
            10 hours ago














          19












          19








          19





          $begingroup$

          This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".



          So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.



          And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?



          In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:




          • One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.


          • Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.



          Or in the proposed world, perhaps:




          • Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.


          • There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.



          The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.



          Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve



          They get to define what "progress" means.



          They are a de facto moral authority.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          This seems to be the key sentence in the question: "It claims no moral authority of right and wrong, but supports progress.".



          So "good" can be defined as that which advances progress, and "bad" that which hinders it.



          And that's where the "moral authority" actually does reside in this world. What is the definition of "progress"?



          In our real world, we have competing definitions of progress:




          • One group wants to build a factory to produce inexpensive essential goods that will help raise the quality of life for everyone. For them, building the factory is progress.


          • Another group campaigns to ban the industrial techniques that make that factory possible, because the process results in significant pollution and long term ecological damage. For them, preventing the factory is progress.



          Or in the proposed world, perhaps:




          • Someone wants to perform an experiment that, while it will result in the deaths of thousands of people, will almost certainly provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.


          • There exists an individual that will eventually develop a new theory that will provide amazing new knowledge. This is obviously a source of progress.



          The thousands of people in the first case are almost certain to contain an instance of a person from the second case.



          Should the experiment be allowed? That is a conflict that the authorities must resolve



          They get to define what "progress" means.



          They are a de facto moral authority.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 14 hours ago









          Ray ButterworthRay Butterworth

          959211




          959211








          • 3




            $begingroup$
            And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
            $endgroup$
            – Nex Terren
            14 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
            $endgroup$
            – Josh Part
            10 hours ago














          • 3




            $begingroup$
            And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
            $endgroup$
            – Nex Terren
            14 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
            $endgroup$
            – Josh Part
            10 hours ago








          3




          3




          $begingroup$
          And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
          $endgroup$
          – Nex Terren
          14 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          And more simply, as soon as the value judgement ("progress" or whatever else) is determined and is acted on ("supported") they have positioned themselves as a moral influencer at the very least. You won't be able to escape it.
          $endgroup$
          – Nex Terren
          14 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
          $endgroup$
          – Josh Part
          10 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          And thus, we witness the birth of ultra-orthodox scientists who will always look for progress no matter the consequences, and protestant scientist who will balance human and natural costs against progress value...
          $endgroup$
          – Josh Part
          10 hours ago











          7












          $begingroup$

          "Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.



          People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".



          A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:




          • Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".

          • The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".

          • Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.

          • Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.


          What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.



          What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
            $endgroup$
            – Piomicron
            10 hours ago
















          7












          $begingroup$

          "Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.



          People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".



          A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:




          • Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".

          • The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".

          • Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.

          • Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.


          What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.



          What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
            $endgroup$
            – Piomicron
            10 hours ago














          7












          7








          7





          $begingroup$

          "Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.



          People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".



          A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:




          • Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".

          • The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".

          • Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.

          • Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.


          What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.



          What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          "Good" or "right" is always subjective and depends on the viewer. Your religious concept already contains concepts of good and bad, right and wrong, but certainly not all of them are in alignment with our current moral standards.



          People in Europe and North America agree that democracy is "right" and any form of dictatorship is "wrong". People in ancient China agreed that an empire with a wise emperor was "right" and people governing themselves was barbarism and thereby "wrong".



          A few quite obvious concepts of moral for your religion include:




          • Truth is right, lying is wrong. People would be taught from very young age and much more rigorously not to lie, not even a tiny bit. Every lie is a sin and needs to be confessed to a religious authority. That could lead to behavior that seems extreme to us, like people rather bluntly saying the truth and apologising for it than telling a white lie like "I was stuck in traffic jam" or "you look fabulous today".

          • The end justifies the means. If scientific progress is the highest religious goal and no creature enjoys special protection as "God's creation", then experiments on animals and humans are "right" and hindering progress by not experimenting is "wrong".

          • Education over labour. Wasting your time with laborous work and not having the chance to progress science in any way is a punishment comparable to exclusion from church. Labourers would be lowest in social status, but the society would also face problems in construction or manufacturing because of the lack of labor forces.

          • Mental disabilities degrade someone to an infidel, maybe even subhuman... Killing people with mental disabilities might be the morally right action in that religion.


          What you need to do is distance yourself from our current moral standard. Write down objectively logical means to progress scientific understanding as much as possible while ignoring any morality and current religions. Then exaggerate them to appear religious.



          What would people do? What would they not do that seems natural to us? Think about examples from history (the Nazis did some sick experiments without any regard to moral) and science fiction, like Vulcans from Star Trek, crazy scientists or rampant AIs.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 14 hours ago

























          answered 14 hours ago









          ElmyElmy

          12.9k22362




          12.9k22362








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
            $endgroup$
            – Piomicron
            10 hours ago














          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
            $endgroup$
            – Piomicron
            10 hours ago








          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
          $endgroup$
          – Piomicron
          10 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          Upvote for considering wider implications beyond what many people would regard as 'good'. The mental disabilities degrading someone to an infidel is a logical implication that adds nuance and gives it something like a flaw when looked through by our own worldview. Likely to happen considering totally different morals.
          $endgroup$
          – Piomicron
          10 hours ago











          6












          $begingroup$


          “Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett




          Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.



          A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.



          Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$









          • 1




            $begingroup$
            This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
            $endgroup$
            – Ynneadwraith
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            11 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            9 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            8 hours ago


















          6












          $begingroup$


          “Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett




          Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.



          A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.



          Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$









          • 1




            $begingroup$
            This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
            $endgroup$
            – Ynneadwraith
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            11 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            9 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            8 hours ago
















          6












          6








          6





          $begingroup$


          “Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett




          Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.



          A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.



          Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$




          “Why are we talking about this good and evil? They're just names for sides. We know that.” ― Good Omens: Neil Gaiman & Terry Pratchett




          Good is us and evil is them. It's a fundamental throughout the ages. Good is what we want to do and what we want you to be and do. Evil is what we want you to not be and not do.



          A classic example of this is that "killing is evil" but many manage to also hold "the death penalty is good" in their heads without the doublethink upsetting them at all.



          Put simply, you follow the tenets of the religion, if you do you are good, to do otherwise is evil.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 14 hours ago









          SeparatrixSeparatrix

          85.6k31198332




          85.6k31198332








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
            $endgroup$
            – Ynneadwraith
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            11 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            9 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            8 hours ago
















          • 1




            $begingroup$
            This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
            $endgroup$
            – Ynneadwraith
            13 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            11 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            9 hours ago






          • 1




            $begingroup$
            @Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
            $endgroup$
            – conman
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            @conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
            $endgroup$
            – Separatrix
            8 hours ago










          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
          $endgroup$
          – Ynneadwraith
          13 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          This. 'Good' and 'Evil' are relative constructs that can (and have throughout history) meant very varied things. In the OP's example, 'good' would be defined as 'furthers scientific progress', whereas 'evil' would be 'hinders scientific progress'. I expect they would have very interesting opinions on Dr Mengele...
          $endgroup$
          – Ynneadwraith
          13 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
          $endgroup$
          – conman
          11 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          I don't think it is necessary to make it political. I'm sure you could come up with an example or a way of explaining that doesn't insult people who happen to hold to one particular political belief.
          $endgroup$
          – conman
          11 hours ago




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          @conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
          $endgroup$
          – Separatrix
          9 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @conman, when looking at doublethink like this it's always going to be offensive to someone, you have to have quite a strong attachment to something to be able to accept it's fundamental contradictions
          $endgroup$
          – Separatrix
          9 hours ago




          1




          1




          $begingroup$
          @Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
          $endgroup$
          – conman
          8 hours ago




          $begingroup$
          @Separatrix I think you missed the point. You've effectively called everyone who believes in the death penalty stupid. Per recent polls, that happens to be just over 50% of the USA. With all of human history available, surely you can come up with an example/explanation that doesn't insult ~150 million people? I actually agree with your answer - I think your chosen example distracts from it.
          $endgroup$
          – conman
          8 hours ago












          $begingroup$
          @conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
          $endgroup$
          – Separatrix
          8 hours ago






          $begingroup$
          @conman, I'm not calling them stupid, If I wanted to call to do that I'd have done so directly, I'm that type. Doublethink requires a real deep seated strength of belief and character to know that both these things are true, when they're apparently contradictory.
          $endgroup$
          – Separatrix
          8 hours ago













          4












          $begingroup$

          Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.



          Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:




          • Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.


          • Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.


          • The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.



          (The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)



          A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:




          The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
          moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
          with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
          nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
          with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
          "Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
          natural affections".




          It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$


















            4












            $begingroup$

            Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.



            Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:




            • Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.


            • Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.


            • The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.



            (The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)



            A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:




            The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
            moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
            with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
            nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
            with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
            "Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
            natural affections".




            It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$
















              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$

              Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.



              Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:




              • Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.


              • Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.


              • The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.



              (The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)



              A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:




              The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
              moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
              with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
              nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
              with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
              "Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
              natural affections".




              It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Consider ripping off most of early Taoism.



              Even a brief introduction to Taoism is well beyond the scope of this answer, but to speak very briefly about the points which may be of interest to you:




              • Taoist ethics are concerned less with doing good acts than becoming a good person who lives in harmony with all things and people.


              • Taoists thus always do what is required by events and their context, but they only do what is required, no more.


              • The constant and unmistakable teaching of the Tao Te Ching is that humans are indeed capable of intervening in life's events, but the evidence of life, which humans constantly ignore, is that such intervention is destructive to all involved, and that we therefore have a moral duty to refrain from taking such actions.



              (The above points taken from a good BBC article on Taoism.)



              A different article contrasts early Taoism from later developments:




              The Taode jing and Zhuangzi were not interested in promoting specific
              moral virtues, and were critical of the idea of regulating society
              with standards of behavior. According to these texts, to emulate
              nature and "do without doing" (wei wu-wei), and to harmonize oneself
              with Tao, will lead naturally to behavior that is genuinely virtuous.
              "Drop humanity, abandon justice/ And the people will return to their
              natural affections".




              It's probably not exactly what you're looking for, but I think it may provide a good starting point.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 14 hours ago









              RogerRoger

              3,195420




              3,195420























                  0












                  $begingroup$

                  You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$













                  • $begingroup$
                    Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
                    $endgroup$
                    – ivanivan
                    2 hours ago
















                  0












                  $begingroup$

                  You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$













                  • $begingroup$
                    Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
                    $endgroup$
                    – ivanivan
                    2 hours ago














                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  You mentioned that the universe is considered the the highest god. This gives you the option of introducing lesser "gods" that seek to end the Universe. Concepts like Entropy that seek to remove all usable energy from the Universe and DarkEnergy which threatens to reap the Universe apart might be seen as bad. Inefficient use of energy helps Entropy so people who are not efficient with energy are labeled as bad people.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 14 hours ago









                  Mphiwe NtuliMphiwe Ntuli

                  692




                  692












                  • $begingroup$
                    Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
                    $endgroup$
                    – ivanivan
                    2 hours ago


















                  • $begingroup$
                    Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
                    $endgroup$
                    – ivanivan
                    2 hours ago
















                  $begingroup$
                  Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
                  $endgroup$
                  – ivanivan
                  2 hours ago




                  $begingroup$
                  Ah, but entropy can be useful, and is heavily studied, theorized about, experimented with, and tested in a scientific manner - and today, we call that progress. Unless you have a thing against strong encryption algorithms, the possibility of quantum computing, etc. Same can be said of researching dark matter/anti matter, etc. Under the questioner's premise, holding someone back or obstructing research in these areas would be "bad".
                  $endgroup$
                  – ivanivan
                  2 hours ago











                  0












                  $begingroup$

                  In my view, you cannot.



                  Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.



                  To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.



                  It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.



                  Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.



                  Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$


















                    0












                    $begingroup$

                    In my view, you cannot.



                    Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.



                    To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.



                    It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.



                    Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.



                    Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$
















                      0












                      0








                      0





                      $begingroup$

                      In my view, you cannot.



                      Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.



                      To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.



                      It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.



                      Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.



                      Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      In my view, you cannot.



                      Religion is (next to other things) first and foremost a value system.



                      To have values, you have to call some things bad and some things good.



                      It doesn't matter if you call them "helpful" instead of good, what matters that they are better than the other thing.



                      Claiming one thing is better (or more ethical) than another is claiming moral authority.



                      Every teaching is claiming to know something that another beeing does not know (yet). If the teaching is on an ethical subject, it has to claim moral superiority to justify teaching it to the other beeing.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 14 hours ago









                      openendopenend

                      2,34211744




                      2,34211744























                          0












                          $begingroup$

                          A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.






                          share|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$


















                            0












                            $begingroup$

                            A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.






                            share|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$
















                              0












                              0








                              0





                              $begingroup$

                              A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.






                              share|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$



                              A religion that doesn’t teach divine-command morality can still promote any other definition of right or wrong from moral philosophy. For example, they could be Utilitarians, who hold that their metaphysical beliefs are true, and that “good” means “good for people.” They could follow the teachings of a revered sage they consider to have been the wisest person in history and the most worthy of emulation, but not divinely inspired per se. They might believe their moral precepts can be deduced from “natural religion” and observing how the universe works, and does not come from revelation. They might not necessarily claim to have all the answers on what morality is, beyond the things that everyone who counts can agree on.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered 8 hours ago









                              DavislorDavislor

                              2,936714




                              2,936714























                                  0












                                  $begingroup$

                                  Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.






                                  share|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$


















                                    0












                                    $begingroup$

                                    Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.






                                    share|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$
















                                      0












                                      0








                                      0





                                      $begingroup$

                                      Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.






                                      share|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      Simple Hedonism - striving for maximization of pleasure - could be a guideline for that kind of religion. This doesn't contradict progress, empirically proven by how much technology is harnessed for hedonist means these days; neither will it necessarily promote violent or oppressive behaviour since defensive reactions incurred would contradict a hedonist ideal without any need of moral judgement.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered 8 hours ago









                                      rackandbonemanrackandboneman

                                      28114




                                      28114






























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