Doesn't the Schrödinger's cat inside the box cause the probability wave function to collapse long before a...
What's the largest an Earth-like planet can be and support Earth's biosphere?
Why should fork() have been designed to return a file descriptor?
Parser for STL stereolithography data files
Found old paper shares of Motorola Inc that has since been broken up
Why don't humans perceive sound waves as twice the frequency they are?
Improving an O(N^2) function (all entities iterating over all other entities)
Why aren't there any women super Grandmasters (GMs)?
What could make large expeditions ineffective for exploring territory full of dangers and valuable resources?
How electronics on board of JWST can survive the low operating temperature while it's difficult to survive lunar night?
When a ball on a rope swings in a circle, is there both centripetal force and tension force?
Are there any satellites in geosynchronous but not geostationary orbits?
Do Indians need sepearte Hong Kong visa if we already have Chinese visa
Why are there few or no black super GMs?
Authorship dispute on a paper that came out of a final report of a course?
Does unblocking power bar outlets through short extension cords increase fire risk?
Three Subway Escalators
When we are talking about black hole evaporation - what exactly happens?
What makes MOVEQ quicker than a normal MOVE in 68000 assembly?
Dative single noun Bankautomaten?
Get Chord Name From a Given Set of Notes
How to not confuse readers with simultaneous events?
Masyu-making game
"Je suis petite, moi?", purpose of the "moi"?
Applying for jobs with an obvious scar
Doesn't the Schrödinger's cat inside the box cause the probability wave function to collapse long before a human opens the box?
Schrödinger's cat and the difficulty of macroscopic superposition stateGeiger counter in the Schrodinger's cat experimentAre particles really in a superposition before you observe the particleWhat is the deal with the Schrodinger's cat? Why is it considered a paradox?Schrodinger's cat paradox problemsWhat would happen if we put Schrödinger inside the box and the cat opened the box door?What if Schrödinger's cat's meowed?Is reality really epistemological in its complete sense?Will there be two cats in the box (superposition) if I use virtual particles (magnetic field) to open the box in Schrodinger's experiment?
.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty{ margin-bottom:0;
}
$begingroup$
My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?
quantum-mechanics quantum-entanglement superposition wavefunction-collapse schroedingers-cat
New contributor
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?
quantum-mechanics quantum-entanglement superposition wavefunction-collapse schroedingers-cat
New contributor
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
9 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?
quantum-mechanics quantum-entanglement superposition wavefunction-collapse schroedingers-cat
New contributor
$endgroup$
My point is that there is no superposition of dead and alive. The cat will cause the probability function to collapse long before we open the box. What am I missing here? Isn't the cat capable of collapsing the probability function? If not, why?
quantum-mechanics quantum-entanglement superposition wavefunction-collapse schroedingers-cat
quantum-mechanics quantum-entanglement superposition wavefunction-collapse schroedingers-cat
New contributor
New contributor
edited 9 hours ago
Qmechanic♦
111k12 gold badges214 silver badges1313 bronze badges
111k12 gold badges214 silver badges1313 bronze badges
New contributor
asked 9 hours ago
Eddie BravoEddie Bravo
191 bronze badge
191 bronze badge
New contributor
New contributor
1
$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
9 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
9 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
9 hours ago
6
6
$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.
So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).
On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.
That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.
In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.
Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "151"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Eddie Bravo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f492737%2fdoesnt-the-schr%25c3%25b6dingers-cat-inside-the-box-cause-the-probability-wave-function%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.
$endgroup$
According to the Many Worlds view, no cat, nor even a human scientist inside the box, will "collapse the wavefunction". The scientist, the cat, and the radioactive particle are all components of the universal wavefunction, which simply branches when the radioactive particle both decays and does not decay. To an observer outside who can't see inside the box or interact in any way with what is in the box, the scientist both dies with the cat and survives with the cat, until the observer peeks inside the box. At that point, the outside observer's wavefunction branches because it has become correlated with the wavefunction of all that's inside the box. The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning. The scientist who subjects himself to the cat's fate is conscious (aware) in one branch that he survived; in the other branch he might briefly be conscious/aware that he is dying.
answered 9 hours ago
S. McGrewS. McGrew
11k2 gold badges13 silver badges43 bronze badges
11k2 gold badges13 silver badges43 bronze badges
$begingroup$
The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
The idea that "consciousness" causes wavefunction collapse has no meaning I agree with that. I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. Is there a proof that, like you said, no entity collapses the wave function?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EddieBravo I'm just not sure whether the Many Worlds view has enough evidence to be taken as the explanation for this. There currently isn't any way to distinguish between many of the interpretations of QM. If your issue comes down to that then it won't be resolved, at least not currently.
$endgroup$
– Aaron Stevens
8 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.
So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.
So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.
So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.
$endgroup$
A theorem of von Neumann says that it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you model the cat (or anything else along the causal chain between closing the box and opening it to observe the cat) as capable of collapsing the wave function. You'll make exactly the same testable predictions no matter where along the way you place the collapse.
So feel free to posit that the cat collapses the wave function. Or to posit that only a human has that power. And if you prefer one story while your neighbor prefers another, let a thousand flowers bloom.
answered 8 hours ago
WillOWillO
7,6752 gold badges23 silver badges35 bronze badges
7,6752 gold badges23 silver badges35 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).
On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.
That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.
In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.
Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).
On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.
That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.
In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.
Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).
On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.
That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.
In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.
Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)
$endgroup$
This is why I generally prefer a "mostly subjective" viewpoint of quantum mechanics at it is really, despite looking at all the alternatives, the only one that fits the closest to the mathematics of the theory as given with no other adulterations (other ideas like MWI, Bohm, etc. really are "different theories" in that they play with the maths and seem to have a fixation on eliminating and explaining away the collapse concept, and thus really are "empirically equivalent theories" [except when they're not!]. My thinking has been that we need to take it blunt, at face value, and see where that leads.).
On subjective account, the wave function belongs to you, the one outside of the box. It models, your information or knowledge about the state of affairs in the box. The transition from "live cat" to "live or dead cat" to "dead cat" starting from the initial state is just showing how your best knowledge, without looking into the box, changes. The "superposition" just means you don't know.
That said, the theory does force us to admit that there really is something "odd" going on "in reality", otherwise it would just be doable with classical mechanics. But that "oddity" is more that the Universe seems to have an information limit that prevents the answers to all questions about a system from existing with perfect information at all times. Problems identified with subjectivity of wave function in literature seem to be hung up on the idea that if you take it as subjective you are taking it as subjective with some further assumptions on what the "real" reality should look like that often amount to sneaking classical mechanics in the back door, instead of letting the maths guide you as to what you can/can't say thereabout (which is that, if we make no such further assumptions, except perhaps relativistic causality, then you have to say that however it exists, physical parameters have "limited resolution" - limited, even fractions of a bit of, information.). Moreover, this frustrates us from being able to know - except perhaps at some moments - what information is really there with truly faithful-to-"reality" detail, but we should not confuse that with "no detail". We just need to qualify things, and not get caught up in black-and-white, all-or-nothing, either/XOR thinking.
In this case, though, as @WillO says, a lot of scenarios may be consistent with the reality of the situation. The question, moreover, bears witness to a misconception in that it is assuming a "magical" property of "observation" due to the collapse postulate, and that the wave function does objectively belong to the system. Yes, you can try that, and yes, then you get this idea (or you could say this evidences a problem with the idea), but you don't need to, and if you stick wholly to that the wave function belongs to each subject involved, then there is no need to posit this. As a subject, the cat may be assigned a wave function talking about the information it has regarding the contraption that is going to kill it. Of course, soon after that one "collapses" then there won't be any more wave function anymore because this subject, the information-bearer, has been terminated.
Hence, from that point of view, it makes no sense to ask this question because the wave function models your knowledge. The cat can't do anything to that. Well, maybe it can - it lets out one final scream as it dies, you hear that through the box and update your knowledge accordingly :)
answered 1 hour ago
The_SympathizerThe_Sympathizer
6,16512 silver badges30 bronze badges
6,16512 silver badges30 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
Eddie Bravo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Eddie Bravo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Eddie Bravo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Eddie Bravo is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Physics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f492737%2fdoesnt-the-schr%25c3%25b6dingers-cat-inside-the-box-cause-the-probability-wave-function%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
Can you explain the down vote, please?
$endgroup$
– Eddie Bravo
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
I think that was exactly Schrödinger's point when he proposed this thought experiment. The question he was interested in was: What makes the superposition collapse? Why do cats collapse the superposition and not electrons?
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@PeterShor Have you a reference showing that was his intent ?
$endgroup$
– StephenG
9 hours ago
2
$begingroup$
If a cat could collapse the wavefunction, then the contents of a perfectly isolated box containing a cat would not evolve according to the Schrödinger equation. So, the rules of physics would have to be such that if some configurations of atoms happens to form a cat (or some other animal), then the rules for time evolution would be different. But you can't really have different fundamental evolution rules for different states, especially given that in QM you can expand a state in terms of other states, so some generic state could have a component containing a cat.
$endgroup$
– Count Iblis
9 hours ago
6
$begingroup$
@StephenG: From Wikipedia: "Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; on the contrary, he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics." You can also read a translation of the relevant part of Schrödinger's original article.
$endgroup$
– Peter Shor
9 hours ago