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1

The Gemara in Avoda Zara 2b says:

וכי מאחר דחזו לקמאי דלא מהני ולא מידי מ"ט עיילי סברי הנך אישתעבדו בהו
בישראל ואנן לא שעבדנו בישראל מאי שנא הני דחשיבי ומאי שנא הני דלא חשיבי
להו משום דהנך משכי במלכותייהו עד דאתי משיחא

The Gemara asks: But once
the other nations see that every-thing said by the first ones, Rome
and Persia, is completely ineffective, what is the reason that they
come forward? The Gemara answers that they think: Those Empires
subjugated the Jewish people, but we did not subjugate the Jewish
people. The Gemara further asks: What is different about these, Rome
and Persia, which were singled out explicitly, and what is different
about those other empires that come afterward, which were not singled
out and mentioned by name? It is because with regard to these, Rome
and Persia, their kingship extends until the coming of the Messiah.

I suppose we could say that Persia today is basically Iran, but can we really say that Rome still exists today? Is the Gemara saying something other than that Rome will exist until the time of Moshiach?

messiah malchut-royalty masecheth-avodah-zarah

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edited 7 hours ago

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• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Rome = Christians, Persia = Muslims.
  
  – ezra
  46 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

1

The Gemara in Avoda Zara 2b says:

וכי מאחר דחזו לקמאי דלא מהני ולא מידי מ"ט עיילי סברי הנך אישתעבדו בהו
בישראל ואנן לא שעבדנו בישראל מאי שנא הני דחשיבי ומאי שנא הני דלא חשיבי
להו משום דהנך משכי במלכותייהו עד דאתי משיחא

The Gemara asks: But once
the other nations see that every-thing said by the first ones, Rome
and Persia, is completely ineffective, what is the reason that they
come forward? The Gemara answers that they think: Those Empires
subjugated the Jewish people, but we did not subjugate the Jewish
people. The Gemara further asks: What is different about these, Rome
and Persia, which were singled out explicitly, and what is different
about those other empires that come afterward, which were not singled
out and mentioned by name? It is because with regard to these, Rome
and Persia, their kingship extends until the coming of the Messiah.

I suppose we could say that Persia today is basically Iran, but can we really say that Rome still exists today? Is the Gemara saying something other than that Rome will exist until the time of Moshiach?

messiah malchut-royalty masecheth-avodah-zarah

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

b a

19.4k22 gold badges4343 silver badges8787 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Akiva___Akiva___

11955 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  Rome = Christians, Persia = Muslims.
  
  – ezra
  46 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

The Gemara in Avoda Zara 2b says:

וכי מאחר דחזו לקמאי דלא מהני ולא מידי מ"ט עיילי סברי הנך אישתעבדו בהו
בישראל ואנן לא שעבדנו בישראל מאי שנא הני דחשיבי ומאי שנא הני דלא חשיבי
להו משום דהנך משכי במלכותייהו עד דאתי משיחא

The Gemara asks: But once
the other nations see that every-thing said by the first ones, Rome
and Persia, is completely ineffective, what is the reason that they
come forward? The Gemara answers that they think: Those Empires
subjugated the Jewish people, but we did not subjugate the Jewish
people. The Gemara further asks: What is different about these, Rome
and Persia, which were singled out explicitly, and what is different
about those other empires that come afterward, which were not singled
out and mentioned by name? It is because with regard to these, Rome
and Persia, their kingship extends until the coming of the Messiah.

I suppose we could say that Persia today is basically Iran, but can we really say that Rome still exists today? Is the Gemara saying something other than that Rome will exist until the time of Moshiach?

messiah malchut-royalty masecheth-avodah-zarah

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

b a

19.4k22 gold badges4343 silver badges8787 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Akiva___Akiva___

11955 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

b a

19.4k22 gold badges4343 silver badges8787 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Akiva___Akiva___

11955 bronze badges

share|improve this question

edited 7 hours ago

b a

19.4k22 gold badges4343 silver badges8787 bronze badges

asked 8 hours ago

Akiva___Akiva___

11955 bronze badges

edited 7 hours ago

b a

19.4k22 gold badges4343 silver badges8787 bronze badges

edited 7 hours ago

b a

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asked 8 hours ago

Akiva___Akiva___

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asked 8 hours ago

Akiva___Akiva___

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1 Answer
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3

Many meforshim understand that when the Gemara refers to Rome it is referring to the Christian nations. See here for example in the Ramban in Sefer HaGeulah - start from last word on the sixth line. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41398&st=&pgnum=51&hilite=

(The discussion of the four kingdoms is from the beginning of the perek which starts 3 pages earlier.)

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answered 5 hours ago

Alter BochurAlter Bochur

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• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  +1 This exhile (as opposed to the brief Babylonian exhile between the two temples) is referred to as the "Roman Exhile" and Western Civilization is referred to as "Rome" in many, many sources. In fact, the Edom/Esav = Rome = Western Civilization trope is so common I'm not sure where to begin looking for sources to cite
  
  – Josh K
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

3

Many meforshim understand that when the Gemara refers to Rome it is referring to the Christian nations. See here for example in the Ramban in Sefer HaGeulah - start from last word on the sixth line. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41398&st=&pgnum=51&hilite=

(The discussion of the four kingdoms is from the beginning of the perek which starts 3 pages earlier.)

share|improve this answer

answered 5 hours ago

Alter BochurAlter Bochur

1,10477 silver badges1212 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  +1 This exhile (as opposed to the brief Babylonian exhile between the two temples) is referred to as the "Roman Exhile" and Western Civilization is referred to as "Rome" in many, many sources. In fact, the Edom/Esav = Rome = Western Civilization trope is so common I'm not sure where to begin looking for sources to cite
  
  – Josh K
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

3

Many meforshim understand that when the Gemara refers to Rome it is referring to the Christian nations. See here for example in the Ramban in Sefer HaGeulah - start from last word on the sixth line. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41398&st=&pgnum=51&hilite=

(The discussion of the four kingdoms is from the beginning of the perek which starts 3 pages earlier.)

share|improve this answer

answered 5 hours ago

Alter BochurAlter Bochur

1,10477 silver badges1212 bronze badges

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  +1 This exhile (as opposed to the brief Babylonian exhile between the two temples) is referred to as the "Roman Exhile" and Western Civilization is referred to as "Rome" in many, many sources. In fact, the Edom/Esav = Rome = Western Civilization trope is so common I'm not sure where to begin looking for sources to cite
  
  – Josh K
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

Many meforshim understand that when the Gemara refers to Rome it is referring to the Christian nations. See here for example in the Ramban in Sefer HaGeulah - start from last word on the sixth line. http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41398&st=&pgnum=51&hilite=

(The discussion of the four kingdoms is from the beginning of the perek which starts 3 pages earlier.)

share|improve this answer

answered 5 hours ago

Alter BochurAlter Bochur

1,10477 silver badges1212 bronze badges

share|improve this answer

answered 5 hours ago

Alter BochurAlter Bochur

1,10477 silver badges1212 bronze badges

answered 5 hours ago

Alter BochurAlter Bochur

1,10477 silver badges1212 bronze badges

answered 5 hours ago

Alter BochurAlter Bochur

1,10477 silver badges1212 bronze badges