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$begingroup$
We are working on a product where the entire device needs to be dissolved in liquid after the device has operated and the device is no longer usable or desired.
This is a down-hole application. The device body is either aluminum or magnesium. There is a small lithium-ion battery plus a circuit board with some electronics. There currently exists technology that can dissolve the aluminum body - a brine solution of about 5% Potassium Chloride (KCl) is circulated until the device is dissolved.
Our client would like to have the circuit board break down / dissolve as well. The board is currently FR4 glass epoxy with traces on both top and bottom layers. We will have a look to see if there is any chance that we can constrain the traces to the top-side layer only - this might allow us to use an aluminum circuit board. However, I'm not hopeful this will be possible.
I'm looking for suggestions for either suitable PCB material OR techniques that might allow the board to be dissolved.
For example, we are considering using a much more fragile PCB material (paper-epoxy) and using a small explosive charge to shatter the board into much smaller pieces. However, I'd like to learn about other techniques that might achieve our goal.
Note that is NOT a shopping question. If someone can suggest a PCB material that would directly be suitable - that's awesome. But I'm after other techniques that might achieve a similar outcome.
I'm aware that the individual components won't be dissolved by the brine solution. However, the goal is to make the pieces small enough that they can be pumped without clogging the system - the pieces can be filtered out and discarded.
pcb
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
$endgroup$
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
We are working on a product where the entire device needs to be dissolved in liquid after the device has operated and the device is no longer usable or desired.
This is a down-hole application. The device body is either aluminum or magnesium. There is a small lithium-ion battery plus a circuit board with some electronics. There currently exists technology that can dissolve the aluminum body - a brine solution of about 5% Potassium Chloride (KCl) is circulated until the device is dissolved.
Our client would like to have the circuit board break down / dissolve as well. The board is currently FR4 glass epoxy with traces on both top and bottom layers. We will have a look to see if there is any chance that we can constrain the traces to the top-side layer only - this might allow us to use an aluminum circuit board. However, I'm not hopeful this will be possible.
I'm looking for suggestions for either suitable PCB material OR techniques that might allow the board to be dissolved.
For example, we are considering using a much more fragile PCB material (paper-epoxy) and using a small explosive charge to shatter the board into much smaller pieces. However, I'd like to learn about other techniques that might achieve our goal.
Note that is NOT a shopping question. If someone can suggest a PCB material that would directly be suitable - that's awesome. But I'm after other techniques that might achieve a similar outcome.
I'm aware that the individual components won't be dissolved by the brine solution. However, the goal is to make the pieces small enough that they can be pumped without clogging the system - the pieces can be filtered out and discarded.
pcb
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Is ntiric acid out of the question?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
8
$begingroup$
This is probably the most interesting question I've seen for a while...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Funny thing is, most materials we have these days are good at not dissolving, customers get mad when that happens. Until you find the customer that want's their product to dissolve
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Is a flexible PCB out of the question? Flex PCBs are standard manufacturing processes, you can make them stiff on any substrate you want just by gluing them down. This would not dissolve, but it can bend to go through pipes.
$endgroup$
– Edgar Brown
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@EdgarBrown researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
We are working on a product where the entire device needs to be dissolved in liquid after the device has operated and the device is no longer usable or desired.
This is a down-hole application. The device body is either aluminum or magnesium. There is a small lithium-ion battery plus a circuit board with some electronics. There currently exists technology that can dissolve the aluminum body - a brine solution of about 5% Potassium Chloride (KCl) is circulated until the device is dissolved.
Our client would like to have the circuit board break down / dissolve as well. The board is currently FR4 glass epoxy with traces on both top and bottom layers. We will have a look to see if there is any chance that we can constrain the traces to the top-side layer only - this might allow us to use an aluminum circuit board. However, I'm not hopeful this will be possible.
I'm looking for suggestions for either suitable PCB material OR techniques that might allow the board to be dissolved.
For example, we are considering using a much more fragile PCB material (paper-epoxy) and using a small explosive charge to shatter the board into much smaller pieces. However, I'd like to learn about other techniques that might achieve our goal.
Note that is NOT a shopping question. If someone can suggest a PCB material that would directly be suitable - that's awesome. But I'm after other techniques that might achieve a similar outcome.
I'm aware that the individual components won't be dissolved by the brine solution. However, the goal is to make the pieces small enough that they can be pumped without clogging the system - the pieces can be filtered out and discarded.
pcb
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
$endgroup$
We are working on a product where the entire device needs to be dissolved in liquid after the device has operated and the device is no longer usable or desired.
This is a down-hole application. The device body is either aluminum or magnesium. There is a small lithium-ion battery plus a circuit board with some electronics. There currently exists technology that can dissolve the aluminum body - a brine solution of about 5% Potassium Chloride (KCl) is circulated until the device is dissolved.
Our client would like to have the circuit board break down / dissolve as well. The board is currently FR4 glass epoxy with traces on both top and bottom layers. We will have a look to see if there is any chance that we can constrain the traces to the top-side layer only - this might allow us to use an aluminum circuit board. However, I'm not hopeful this will be possible.
I'm looking for suggestions for either suitable PCB material OR techniques that might allow the board to be dissolved.
For example, we are considering using a much more fragile PCB material (paper-epoxy) and using a small explosive charge to shatter the board into much smaller pieces. However, I'd like to learn about other techniques that might achieve our goal.
Note that is NOT a shopping question. If someone can suggest a PCB material that would directly be suitable - that's awesome. But I'm after other techniques that might achieve a similar outcome.
I'm aware that the individual components won't be dissolved by the brine solution. However, the goal is to make the pieces small enough that they can be pumped without clogging the system - the pieces can be filtered out and discarded.
pcb
pcb
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
edited 6 hours ago
Dwayne Reid
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Dwayne ReidDwayne Reid
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
18.7k2 gold badges20 silver badges53 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Is ntiric acid out of the question?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
8
$begingroup$
This is probably the most interesting question I've seen for a while...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Funny thing is, most materials we have these days are good at not dissolving, customers get mad when that happens. Until you find the customer that want's their product to dissolve
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Is a flexible PCB out of the question? Flex PCBs are standard manufacturing processes, you can make them stiff on any substrate you want just by gluing them down. This would not dissolve, but it can bend to go through pipes.
$endgroup$
– Edgar Brown
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@EdgarBrown researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
$begingroup$
Is ntiric acid out of the question?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
8
$begingroup$
This is probably the most interesting question I've seen for a while...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Funny thing is, most materials we have these days are good at not dissolving, customers get mad when that happens. Until you find the customer that want's their product to dissolve
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Is a flexible PCB out of the question? Flex PCBs are standard manufacturing processes, you can make them stiff on any substrate you want just by gluing them down. This would not dissolve, but it can bend to go through pipes.
$endgroup$
– Edgar Brown
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
@EdgarBrown researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is ntiric acid out of the question?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is ntiric acid out of the question?
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
8
8
$begingroup$
This is probably the most interesting question I've seen for a while...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is probably the most interesting question I've seen for a while...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Funny thing is, most materials we have these days are good at not dissolving, customers get mad when that happens. Until you find the customer that want's their product to dissolve
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Funny thing is, most materials we have these days are good at not dissolving, customers get mad when that happens. Until you find the customer that want's their product to dissolve
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Is a flexible PCB out of the question? Flex PCBs are standard manufacturing processes, you can make them stiff on any substrate you want just by gluing them down. This would not dissolve, but it can bend to go through pipes.
$endgroup$
– Edgar Brown
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Is a flexible PCB out of the question? Flex PCBs are standard manufacturing processes, you can make them stiff on any substrate you want just by gluing them down. This would not dissolve, but it can bend to go through pipes.
$endgroup$
– Edgar Brown
7 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@EdgarBrown researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
@EdgarBrown researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Researchers from the National Physical Laboratory (NPL), in London, in
cooperation with partners In2Teck Ltd and Gwent Electronic Materials
Ltd, have developed a 3D printable circuit board that separates into
individual components when immersed in hot water. The goal of the
ReUSE project was to increase the recyclability of electronic
assemblies in order to reduce the ever-increasing amount of electronic
waste.
Source: http://environmentaltestanddesign.com/dissolvable-printed-circuit-board-recycled-with-hot-water/
If that doesn't work, nitric acid will work on just about everything.
Oh, if you wanted to 'roll your own' manufacturing process, you could find a dissolveable material (maybe a some kind of cellulose?) and print on it with on of these PCB conductive ink printers: https://www.voltera.io/
As per Edgar Browns suggestion, also this idea for dissolving polyimide for flat flex:
Try a mixture of Methanol:THF=1:1 , but it will take 1-2 days; The
easiest way to dissolve Kapton - is to use 0.1-0.3M NaOH in water. By
using alkaline solutions you can completely decompose the Kapton -
down to initial monomers.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
NaOH is lye, I don't know in what concentration you would have to have to get kapton to dissolve but that seems like it would be easy to experiment with.
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
NaOH is sodium hydroxide (lye). "Bleach" typically refers to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), which is a very different chemical.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your right, for some reason I always think bleach is watered down lye, it is not. Thanks for the correction
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Oh, and "0.1-0.3M" is a description of the concentration required. It's pretty weak.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Seems like something I should try in the lab...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If this is down hole application it is already really hot so heat only solution is bad idea, typically polyimide PCB is already used for high temp down hole application so you may be able to adapt the flex solution for polyimide pcb. You still have to disolve the components
$endgroup$
– crasic
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
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1 Answer
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active
oldest
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1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Researchers from the National Physical Laboratory (NPL), in London, in
cooperation with partners In2Teck Ltd and Gwent Electronic Materials
Ltd, have developed a 3D printable circuit board that separates into
individual components when immersed in hot water. The goal of the
ReUSE project was to increase the recyclability of electronic
assemblies in order to reduce the ever-increasing amount of electronic
waste.
Source: http://environmentaltestanddesign.com/dissolvable-printed-circuit-board-recycled-with-hot-water/
If that doesn't work, nitric acid will work on just about everything.
Oh, if you wanted to 'roll your own' manufacturing process, you could find a dissolveable material (maybe a some kind of cellulose?) and print on it with on of these PCB conductive ink printers: https://www.voltera.io/
As per Edgar Browns suggestion, also this idea for dissolving polyimide for flat flex:
Try a mixture of Methanol:THF=1:1 , but it will take 1-2 days; The
easiest way to dissolve Kapton - is to use 0.1-0.3M NaOH in water. By
using alkaline solutions you can completely decompose the Kapton -
down to initial monomers.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
NaOH is lye, I don't know in what concentration you would have to have to get kapton to dissolve but that seems like it would be easy to experiment with.
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
NaOH is sodium hydroxide (lye). "Bleach" typically refers to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), which is a very different chemical.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your right, for some reason I always think bleach is watered down lye, it is not. Thanks for the correction
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Oh, and "0.1-0.3M" is a description of the concentration required. It's pretty weak.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Seems like something I should try in the lab...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If this is down hole application it is already really hot so heat only solution is bad idea, typically polyimide PCB is already used for high temp down hole application so you may be able to adapt the flex solution for polyimide pcb. You still have to disolve the components
$endgroup$
– crasic
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Researchers from the National Physical Laboratory (NPL), in London, in
cooperation with partners In2Teck Ltd and Gwent Electronic Materials
Ltd, have developed a 3D printable circuit board that separates into
individual components when immersed in hot water. The goal of the
ReUSE project was to increase the recyclability of electronic
assemblies in order to reduce the ever-increasing amount of electronic
waste.
Source: http://environmentaltestanddesign.com/dissolvable-printed-circuit-board-recycled-with-hot-water/
If that doesn't work, nitric acid will work on just about everything.
Oh, if you wanted to 'roll your own' manufacturing process, you could find a dissolveable material (maybe a some kind of cellulose?) and print on it with on of these PCB conductive ink printers: https://www.voltera.io/
As per Edgar Browns suggestion, also this idea for dissolving polyimide for flat flex:
Try a mixture of Methanol:THF=1:1 , but it will take 1-2 days; The
easiest way to dissolve Kapton - is to use 0.1-0.3M NaOH in water. By
using alkaline solutions you can completely decompose the Kapton -
down to initial monomers.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
NaOH is lye, I don't know in what concentration you would have to have to get kapton to dissolve but that seems like it would be easy to experiment with.
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
NaOH is sodium hydroxide (lye). "Bleach" typically refers to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), which is a very different chemical.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your right, for some reason I always think bleach is watered down lye, it is not. Thanks for the correction
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Oh, and "0.1-0.3M" is a description of the concentration required. It's pretty weak.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Seems like something I should try in the lab...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If this is down hole application it is already really hot so heat only solution is bad idea, typically polyimide PCB is already used for high temp down hole application so you may be able to adapt the flex solution for polyimide pcb. You still have to disolve the components
$endgroup$
– crasic
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
Researchers from the National Physical Laboratory (NPL), in London, in
cooperation with partners In2Teck Ltd and Gwent Electronic Materials
Ltd, have developed a 3D printable circuit board that separates into
individual components when immersed in hot water. The goal of the
ReUSE project was to increase the recyclability of electronic
assemblies in order to reduce the ever-increasing amount of electronic
waste.
Source: http://environmentaltestanddesign.com/dissolvable-printed-circuit-board-recycled-with-hot-water/
If that doesn't work, nitric acid will work on just about everything.
Oh, if you wanted to 'roll your own' manufacturing process, you could find a dissolveable material (maybe a some kind of cellulose?) and print on it with on of these PCB conductive ink printers: https://www.voltera.io/
As per Edgar Browns suggestion, also this idea for dissolving polyimide for flat flex:
Try a mixture of Methanol:THF=1:1 , but it will take 1-2 days; The
easiest way to dissolve Kapton - is to use 0.1-0.3M NaOH in water. By
using alkaline solutions you can completely decompose the Kapton -
down to initial monomers.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
NaOH is lye, I don't know in what concentration you would have to have to get kapton to dissolve but that seems like it would be easy to experiment with.
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
$endgroup$
Researchers from the National Physical Laboratory (NPL), in London, in
cooperation with partners In2Teck Ltd and Gwent Electronic Materials
Ltd, have developed a 3D printable circuit board that separates into
individual components when immersed in hot water. The goal of the
ReUSE project was to increase the recyclability of electronic
assemblies in order to reduce the ever-increasing amount of electronic
waste.
Source: http://environmentaltestanddesign.com/dissolvable-printed-circuit-board-recycled-with-hot-water/
If that doesn't work, nitric acid will work on just about everything.
Oh, if you wanted to 'roll your own' manufacturing process, you could find a dissolveable material (maybe a some kind of cellulose?) and print on it with on of these PCB conductive ink printers: https://www.voltera.io/
As per Edgar Browns suggestion, also this idea for dissolving polyimide for flat flex:
Try a mixture of Methanol:THF=1:1 , but it will take 1-2 days; The
easiest way to dissolve Kapton - is to use 0.1-0.3M NaOH in water. By
using alkaline solutions you can completely decompose the Kapton -
down to initial monomers.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
NaOH is lye, I don't know in what concentration you would have to have to get kapton to dissolve but that seems like it would be easy to experiment with.
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
edited 7 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Voltage SpikeVoltage Spike
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
39k12 gold badges43 silver badges114 bronze badges
$begingroup$
NaOH is sodium hydroxide (lye). "Bleach" typically refers to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), which is a very different chemical.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your right, for some reason I always think bleach is watered down lye, it is not. Thanks for the correction
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Oh, and "0.1-0.3M" is a description of the concentration required. It's pretty weak.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Seems like something I should try in the lab...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If this is down hole application it is already really hot so heat only solution is bad idea, typically polyimide PCB is already used for high temp down hole application so you may be able to adapt the flex solution for polyimide pcb. You still have to disolve the components
$endgroup$
– crasic
6 hours ago
add a comment
|
$begingroup$
NaOH is sodium hydroxide (lye). "Bleach" typically refers to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), which is a very different chemical.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Your right, for some reason I always think bleach is watered down lye, it is not. Thanks for the correction
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Oh, and "0.1-0.3M" is a description of the concentration required. It's pretty weak.
$endgroup$
– duskwuff
7 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Seems like something I should try in the lab...
$endgroup$
– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
If this is down hole application it is already really hot so heat only solution is bad idea, typically polyimide PCB is already used for high temp down hole application so you may be able to adapt the flex solution for polyimide pcb. You still have to disolve the components
$endgroup$
– crasic
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
NaOH is sodium hydroxide (lye). "Bleach" typically refers to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), which is a very different chemical.
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– duskwuff
7 hours ago
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NaOH is sodium hydroxide (lye). "Bleach" typically refers to sodium hypochlorite (NaOCl), which is a very different chemical.
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– duskwuff
7 hours ago
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Your right, for some reason I always think bleach is watered down lye, it is not. Thanks for the correction
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– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
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Your right, for some reason I always think bleach is watered down lye, it is not. Thanks for the correction
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– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
1
1
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Oh, and "0.1-0.3M" is a description of the concentration required. It's pretty weak.
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– duskwuff
7 hours ago
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Oh, and "0.1-0.3M" is a description of the concentration required. It's pretty weak.
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– duskwuff
7 hours ago
1
1
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Seems like something I should try in the lab...
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– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
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Seems like something I should try in the lab...
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– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago
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If this is down hole application it is already really hot so heat only solution is bad idea, typically polyimide PCB is already used for high temp down hole application so you may be able to adapt the flex solution for polyimide pcb. You still have to disolve the components
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– crasic
6 hours ago
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If this is down hole application it is already really hot so heat only solution is bad idea, typically polyimide PCB is already used for high temp down hole application so you may be able to adapt the flex solution for polyimide pcb. You still have to disolve the components
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– crasic
6 hours ago
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$begingroup$
Is ntiric acid out of the question?
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– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
8
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This is probably the most interesting question I've seen for a while...
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– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
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Funny thing is, most materials we have these days are good at not dissolving, customers get mad when that happens. Until you find the customer that want's their product to dissolve
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– Voltage Spike
8 hours ago
1
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Is a flexible PCB out of the question? Flex PCBs are standard manufacturing processes, you can make them stiff on any substrate you want just by gluing them down. This would not dissolve, but it can bend to go through pipes.
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– Edgar Brown
7 hours ago
1
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@EdgarBrown researchgate.net/post/can_polyimide_filmskapton_dissolved
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– Voltage Spike
7 hours ago