Which skill should be used for secret doors or traps: Perception or Investigation?How to roll perception...
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Which skill should be used for secret doors or traps: Perception or Investigation?
How to roll perception checks for characters who aren't actively looking without arousing suspicion?Passive checks or active checks when looking for monsters or hidden objects?When is each skill used when searching for hidden objects like traps?5E Trap/Ambush/Stealth Mechanics VS Passive Perception ConfusionCan any spellcaster use Mage Hand to perform a Sleight of Hand check?How to deal with players that wants their characters to do automatic perception, stealth and searching for traps/secret doors?Can passive and active Perception DCs be different?Why is finding traps so easy at high levels?How can I handle this character's overpowered Perception?Does hidden just mean unseen and unheard?
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}
$begingroup$
Which skill should be used for finding secret doors or traps: Perception or Investigation?
If I only look at the SRD, it seams pretty cut and dry; all the examples for Wisdom (Perception) are creatures and all the examples for Intelligence (Investigation) are objects, but if I look at the Player's Handbook, page 178, the green box example is using Perception for secret doors or traps.
Specifically, under Investigation:
deduce the location of a hidden object,
And the green box:
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Which is correct?
dnd-5e skills
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Which skill should be used for finding secret doors or traps: Perception or Investigation?
If I only look at the SRD, it seams pretty cut and dry; all the examples for Wisdom (Perception) are creatures and all the examples for Intelligence (Investigation) are objects, but if I look at the Player's Handbook, page 178, the green box example is using Perception for secret doors or traps.
Specifically, under Investigation:
deduce the location of a hidden object,
And the green box:
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Which is correct?
dnd-5e skills
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Do you have the 5e DMG?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast Yes
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Are you asking as a DM or as a player? How many RPG.SE questions and answers on this topic did you review before asking this question?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
2
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast If it's been asked before, please reference the duplicate and recommend closing.
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Which skill should be used for finding secret doors or traps: Perception or Investigation?
If I only look at the SRD, it seams pretty cut and dry; all the examples for Wisdom (Perception) are creatures and all the examples for Intelligence (Investigation) are objects, but if I look at the Player's Handbook, page 178, the green box example is using Perception for secret doors or traps.
Specifically, under Investigation:
deduce the location of a hidden object,
And the green box:
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Which is correct?
dnd-5e skills
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
$endgroup$
Which skill should be used for finding secret doors or traps: Perception or Investigation?
If I only look at the SRD, it seams pretty cut and dry; all the examples for Wisdom (Perception) are creatures and all the examples for Intelligence (Investigation) are objects, but if I look at the Player's Handbook, page 178, the green box example is using Perception for secret doors or traps.
Specifically, under Investigation:
deduce the location of a hidden object,
And the green box:
When your character searches for a hidden object such as a secret door or a trap, the DM typically asks you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Which is correct?
dnd-5e skills
dnd-5e skills
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
28.1k5101171
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
asked 2 hours ago
WyrmwoodWyrmwood
5,59011643
5,59011643
$begingroup$
Do you have the 5e DMG?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast Yes
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Are you asking as a DM or as a player? How many RPG.SE questions and answers on this topic did you review before asking this question?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
2
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast If it's been asked before, please reference the duplicate and recommend closing.
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Do you have the 5e DMG?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast Yes
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Are you asking as a DM or as a player? How many RPG.SE questions and answers on this topic did you review before asking this question?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
2
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast If it's been asked before, please reference the duplicate and recommend closing.
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Do you have the 5e DMG?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Do you have the 5e DMG?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast Yes
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast Yes
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Are you asking as a DM or as a player? How many RPG.SE questions and answers on this topic did you review before asking this question?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Are you asking as a DM or as a player? How many RPG.SE questions and answers on this topic did you review before asking this question?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
2
2
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast If it's been asked before, please reference the duplicate and recommend closing.
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast If it's been asked before, please reference the duplicate and recommend closing.
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Seeing and Finding are different
The rules on these two skills are blurry and have a significant amount of overlap. That means the exact correct answer is "up to the DM". You make the check the DM decides is more appropriate. I will detail the way I choose between them, this method is also used by every DM I have played with. It also seems to be the method used by Matt Mercer, though I haven't asked him to be sure.
Perception is for seeing
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. - PHB
Perception checks are based on your senses. Can you see, hear or feel something that might give away the location. An example of how this can be used to find hidden doors:
You are standing in the centre of the room, you glance around to notice traps, triggers and anything else of interest. You feel a faint breeze blowing from the bookshelf in the corner.
This is a Perception check. It is a measure of your ability to notice things by sight or sense.
Investigation is for searching
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. - PHB
Investigation checks are about using logic and reasoning to figure out where the trap or secret door may be. This is a narrative difference rather than a mechanical one. An example description a DM may give:
You hunt around the room, methodically checking every shelf, cupboard and wall sconce for a hidden switch. You find scratch marks on a certain section of floor and deduce that the bookshelf must swing out.
This is an Investigation check. It is a measure of your ability to think logically and methodically locate something. You are using the clues to figure out where the secret door lies.
Finding a Hidden Object Green Text
I believe most of the confusion is coming for the block of green text under the Perception section of ability checks. In that section it has the text below in relation to Perception checks (emphasis mine):
... looking at the walls and furniture for clues, [...] you were opening drawers or searching the bureau... - PHB
This text seems to contradict the non-green-text descriptions for these two skills. I can't speak to why WotC choose to include this but I can try to explain the difference in spite of it.
Investigation is your ability to think and reason based on evidence. Perception is your ability to find that evidence with your senses. A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check.
This method is how I have always handled it at the table, as does my DM. The players and DM always seems to have a good idea of which situations require which check and it has never caused an issue.
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The "scratch marks" example makes me question all of this. Would you give a player a Perception check to just notice that the scratch marks are there? (If so, why do they not have to make that check before attempting the Investigation check? And if not, do you just tell them about the scratch marks for free?)
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@MarkWells "A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check."
$endgroup$
– linksassin
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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$begingroup$
Seeing and Finding are different
The rules on these two skills are blurry and have a significant amount of overlap. That means the exact correct answer is "up to the DM". You make the check the DM decides is more appropriate. I will detail the way I choose between them, this method is also used by every DM I have played with. It also seems to be the method used by Matt Mercer, though I haven't asked him to be sure.
Perception is for seeing
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. - PHB
Perception checks are based on your senses. Can you see, hear or feel something that might give away the location. An example of how this can be used to find hidden doors:
You are standing in the centre of the room, you glance around to notice traps, triggers and anything else of interest. You feel a faint breeze blowing from the bookshelf in the corner.
This is a Perception check. It is a measure of your ability to notice things by sight or sense.
Investigation is for searching
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. - PHB
Investigation checks are about using logic and reasoning to figure out where the trap or secret door may be. This is a narrative difference rather than a mechanical one. An example description a DM may give:
You hunt around the room, methodically checking every shelf, cupboard and wall sconce for a hidden switch. You find scratch marks on a certain section of floor and deduce that the bookshelf must swing out.
This is an Investigation check. It is a measure of your ability to think logically and methodically locate something. You are using the clues to figure out where the secret door lies.
Finding a Hidden Object Green Text
I believe most of the confusion is coming for the block of green text under the Perception section of ability checks. In that section it has the text below in relation to Perception checks (emphasis mine):
... looking at the walls and furniture for clues, [...] you were opening drawers or searching the bureau... - PHB
This text seems to contradict the non-green-text descriptions for these two skills. I can't speak to why WotC choose to include this but I can try to explain the difference in spite of it.
Investigation is your ability to think and reason based on evidence. Perception is your ability to find that evidence with your senses. A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check.
This method is how I have always handled it at the table, as does my DM. The players and DM always seems to have a good idea of which situations require which check and it has never caused an issue.
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The "scratch marks" example makes me question all of this. Would you give a player a Perception check to just notice that the scratch marks are there? (If so, why do they not have to make that check before attempting the Investigation check? And if not, do you just tell them about the scratch marks for free?)
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@MarkWells "A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check."
$endgroup$
– linksassin
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Seeing and Finding are different
The rules on these two skills are blurry and have a significant amount of overlap. That means the exact correct answer is "up to the DM". You make the check the DM decides is more appropriate. I will detail the way I choose between them, this method is also used by every DM I have played with. It also seems to be the method used by Matt Mercer, though I haven't asked him to be sure.
Perception is for seeing
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. - PHB
Perception checks are based on your senses. Can you see, hear or feel something that might give away the location. An example of how this can be used to find hidden doors:
You are standing in the centre of the room, you glance around to notice traps, triggers and anything else of interest. You feel a faint breeze blowing from the bookshelf in the corner.
This is a Perception check. It is a measure of your ability to notice things by sight or sense.
Investigation is for searching
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. - PHB
Investigation checks are about using logic and reasoning to figure out where the trap or secret door may be. This is a narrative difference rather than a mechanical one. An example description a DM may give:
You hunt around the room, methodically checking every shelf, cupboard and wall sconce for a hidden switch. You find scratch marks on a certain section of floor and deduce that the bookshelf must swing out.
This is an Investigation check. It is a measure of your ability to think logically and methodically locate something. You are using the clues to figure out where the secret door lies.
Finding a Hidden Object Green Text
I believe most of the confusion is coming for the block of green text under the Perception section of ability checks. In that section it has the text below in relation to Perception checks (emphasis mine):
... looking at the walls and furniture for clues, [...] you were opening drawers or searching the bureau... - PHB
This text seems to contradict the non-green-text descriptions for these two skills. I can't speak to why WotC choose to include this but I can try to explain the difference in spite of it.
Investigation is your ability to think and reason based on evidence. Perception is your ability to find that evidence with your senses. A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check.
This method is how I have always handled it at the table, as does my DM. The players and DM always seems to have a good idea of which situations require which check and it has never caused an issue.
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The "scratch marks" example makes me question all of this. Would you give a player a Perception check to just notice that the scratch marks are there? (If so, why do they not have to make that check before attempting the Investigation check? And if not, do you just tell them about the scratch marks for free?)
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@MarkWells "A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check."
$endgroup$
– linksassin
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Seeing and Finding are different
The rules on these two skills are blurry and have a significant amount of overlap. That means the exact correct answer is "up to the DM". You make the check the DM decides is more appropriate. I will detail the way I choose between them, this method is also used by every DM I have played with. It also seems to be the method used by Matt Mercer, though I haven't asked him to be sure.
Perception is for seeing
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. - PHB
Perception checks are based on your senses. Can you see, hear or feel something that might give away the location. An example of how this can be used to find hidden doors:
You are standing in the centre of the room, you glance around to notice traps, triggers and anything else of interest. You feel a faint breeze blowing from the bookshelf in the corner.
This is a Perception check. It is a measure of your ability to notice things by sight or sense.
Investigation is for searching
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. - PHB
Investigation checks are about using logic and reasoning to figure out where the trap or secret door may be. This is a narrative difference rather than a mechanical one. An example description a DM may give:
You hunt around the room, methodically checking every shelf, cupboard and wall sconce for a hidden switch. You find scratch marks on a certain section of floor and deduce that the bookshelf must swing out.
This is an Investigation check. It is a measure of your ability to think logically and methodically locate something. You are using the clues to figure out where the secret door lies.
Finding a Hidden Object Green Text
I believe most of the confusion is coming for the block of green text under the Perception section of ability checks. In that section it has the text below in relation to Perception checks (emphasis mine):
... looking at the walls and furniture for clues, [...] you were opening drawers or searching the bureau... - PHB
This text seems to contradict the non-green-text descriptions for these two skills. I can't speak to why WotC choose to include this but I can try to explain the difference in spite of it.
Investigation is your ability to think and reason based on evidence. Perception is your ability to find that evidence with your senses. A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check.
This method is how I have always handled it at the table, as does my DM. The players and DM always seems to have a good idea of which situations require which check and it has never caused an issue.
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
$endgroup$
Seeing and Finding are different
The rules on these two skills are blurry and have a significant amount of overlap. That means the exact correct answer is "up to the DM". You make the check the DM decides is more appropriate. I will detail the way I choose between them, this method is also used by every DM I have played with. It also seems to be the method used by Matt Mercer, though I haven't asked him to be sure.
Perception is for seeing
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. - PHB
Perception checks are based on your senses. Can you see, hear or feel something that might give away the location. An example of how this can be used to find hidden doors:
You are standing in the centre of the room, you glance around to notice traps, triggers and anything else of interest. You feel a faint breeze blowing from the bookshelf in the corner.
This is a Perception check. It is a measure of your ability to notice things by sight or sense.
Investigation is for searching
When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check. - PHB
Investigation checks are about using logic and reasoning to figure out where the trap or secret door may be. This is a narrative difference rather than a mechanical one. An example description a DM may give:
You hunt around the room, methodically checking every shelf, cupboard and wall sconce for a hidden switch. You find scratch marks on a certain section of floor and deduce that the bookshelf must swing out.
This is an Investigation check. It is a measure of your ability to think logically and methodically locate something. You are using the clues to figure out where the secret door lies.
Finding a Hidden Object Green Text
I believe most of the confusion is coming for the block of green text under the Perception section of ability checks. In that section it has the text below in relation to Perception checks (emphasis mine):
... looking at the walls and furniture for clues, [...] you were opening drawers or searching the bureau... - PHB
This text seems to contradict the non-green-text descriptions for these two skills. I can't speak to why WotC choose to include this but I can try to explain the difference in spite of it.
Investigation is your ability to think and reason based on evidence. Perception is your ability to find that evidence with your senses. A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check.
This method is how I have always handled it at the table, as does my DM. The players and DM always seems to have a good idea of which situations require which check and it has never caused an issue.
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
edited 1 hour ago
V2Blast
28.1k5101171
28.1k5101171
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
answered 2 hours ago
linksassinlinksassin
10.9k13677
10.9k13677
$begingroup$
The "scratch marks" example makes me question all of this. Would you give a player a Perception check to just notice that the scratch marks are there? (If so, why do they not have to make that check before attempting the Investigation check? And if not, do you just tell them about the scratch marks for free?)
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@MarkWells "A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check."
$endgroup$
– linksassin
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The "scratch marks" example makes me question all of this. Would you give a player a Perception check to just notice that the scratch marks are there? (If so, why do they not have to make that check before attempting the Investigation check? And if not, do you just tell them about the scratch marks for free?)
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
@MarkWells "A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check."
$endgroup$
– linksassin
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
The "scratch marks" example makes me question all of this. Would you give a player a Perception check to just notice that the scratch marks are there? (If so, why do they not have to make that check before attempting the Investigation check? And if not, do you just tell them about the scratch marks for free?)
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
The "scratch marks" example makes me question all of this. Would you give a player a Perception check to just notice that the scratch marks are there? (If so, why do they not have to make that check before attempting the Investigation check? And if not, do you just tell them about the scratch marks for free?)
$endgroup$
– Mark Wells
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@MarkWells "A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check."
$endgroup$
– linksassin
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@MarkWells "A DM could possibly call for both checks for a particularly difficult situation. More likely is you decide which is more difficult, finding the evidence or understanding it. Then call for the appropriate check."
$endgroup$
– linksassin
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Do you have the 5e DMG?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast Yes
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Are you asking as a DM or as a player? How many RPG.SE questions and answers on this topic did you review before asking this question?
$endgroup$
– KorvinStarmast
1 hour ago
2
$begingroup$
@KorvinStarmast If it's been asked before, please reference the duplicate and recommend closing.
$endgroup$
– Wyrmwood
1 hour ago