Why did Robert pick unworthy men for the White Cloaks?What happened to Ice, Eddard Stark's Valyrian steel...
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Why did Robert pick unworthy men for the White Cloaks?
What happened to Ice, Eddard Stark's Valyrian steel sword?Who are the 3 men who would have a chance against Jaime Lannister in a sword fight?Why did Stannis join the rebellion?Have the requirements for knighthood changed over time?How did Renly expect Robert to set aside Cersei and take Margaery as queen instead?Why did Stannis keep the title of Prince of Dragonstone after Joffrey was born?Who destroyed the Sept in Lordsport, Iron Islands?Did Arthur Dayne give Dawn to the Smiling Knight?Was Jon Arryn capable as the Hand? What were his achievements?Why are members of the Kingsguard allowed to fight in battles and tourneys?
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When we look at past examples, Kingsguards' history for most part has been illustrious and a shining example of chivalry and honour. There have been rare exceptions every two or three decades or so but that doesn't match up to what happened in Robert's reign.
Robert's Seven could perhaps be called the worst seven ever assembled in the history. Even staunch Baratheon loyalists like Eddard Stark agreed on that much. When we look at the 7:
- Ser Barristan Selmy - Although famous in the seven Kingdoms for his honour, Selmy had indeed dishonoured himself by taking Robert's pardon rather than dying for Targaryens like his sworn brothers did. As his Lord Commander and comrades said, "Our knees don't bend easy [....] Kingsguards do not flee [...] We swore an oath". Yet Selmy didn't follow them in their example even though he was arguably made of the same stuff; True Steel.
- Ser Jaime Lannister - The worst Kingsguard ever on face-value. He slew his King and took Robert's pardon, just like Selmy.
- Ser Arys Oakheart - Although well-meaning and not without some honour, he was weak-willed and we often see him dishonouring himself, although at least he shows some resistance to evil. And then we see how he sold Princess Myrcella to Dornish serpants for some sweet nothings whispered in his ear in a fashion that would have enraged old Ser Gerold Hightower or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.
- Ser Boros Blount - A well known coward with little to no martial skills who was dishonourable beside. Even Ser Arys didn't shame himself as much as Boros did in his yielding of Prince Tommen.
- Ser Mandon Moore - Although a most puissant knight, he was known to be a bit psychotic, robotic and dishonourable as we see him in the affair of Joff ordering KG to beat Sansa up. Ser Arys at least objected before hitting her, Mandon Moore needed no pressure at all.
- Ser Meryn Trant - A cruel, dishonourable man who was a stain on the White Cloak he wore.
- Ser Preston Greenfield - Seems to be somewhat gifted with the sword but characterwise he was not much different from other paragons such as Blount, Moore and Trant.
Among the seven, the only real steel were the two surviving member of Aerys II's seven. The five that Robert himself chose were singularly unsuited for the job. How did Robert have such a knack for picking the worst possible aspiring white cloaks? Is there any background information or author's comments available on those appointment?
a-song-of-ice-and-fire
add a comment |
When we look at past examples, Kingsguards' history for most part has been illustrious and a shining example of chivalry and honour. There have been rare exceptions every two or three decades or so but that doesn't match up to what happened in Robert's reign.
Robert's Seven could perhaps be called the worst seven ever assembled in the history. Even staunch Baratheon loyalists like Eddard Stark agreed on that much. When we look at the 7:
- Ser Barristan Selmy - Although famous in the seven Kingdoms for his honour, Selmy had indeed dishonoured himself by taking Robert's pardon rather than dying for Targaryens like his sworn brothers did. As his Lord Commander and comrades said, "Our knees don't bend easy [....] Kingsguards do not flee [...] We swore an oath". Yet Selmy didn't follow them in their example even though he was arguably made of the same stuff; True Steel.
- Ser Jaime Lannister - The worst Kingsguard ever on face-value. He slew his King and took Robert's pardon, just like Selmy.
- Ser Arys Oakheart - Although well-meaning and not without some honour, he was weak-willed and we often see him dishonouring himself, although at least he shows some resistance to evil. And then we see how he sold Princess Myrcella to Dornish serpants for some sweet nothings whispered in his ear in a fashion that would have enraged old Ser Gerold Hightower or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.
- Ser Boros Blount - A well known coward with little to no martial skills who was dishonourable beside. Even Ser Arys didn't shame himself as much as Boros did in his yielding of Prince Tommen.
- Ser Mandon Moore - Although a most puissant knight, he was known to be a bit psychotic, robotic and dishonourable as we see him in the affair of Joff ordering KG to beat Sansa up. Ser Arys at least objected before hitting her, Mandon Moore needed no pressure at all.
- Ser Meryn Trant - A cruel, dishonourable man who was a stain on the White Cloak he wore.
- Ser Preston Greenfield - Seems to be somewhat gifted with the sword but characterwise he was not much different from other paragons such as Blount, Moore and Trant.
Among the seven, the only real steel were the two surviving member of Aerys II's seven. The five that Robert himself chose were singularly unsuited for the job. How did Robert have such a knack for picking the worst possible aspiring white cloaks? Is there any background information or author's comments available on those appointment?
a-song-of-ice-and-fire
3
I don't have enough for an answer at the moment, but I wonder if it is less related to the character of the current Kingsguard and more related to us not seeing the flaws in prior Kingsguards. Basically the "good old days" weren't actually as good as they seem. This would be consistent with GRRM's style of gray characters vs black and white characters. For example, Aerys' Kingsguard watched him burn people alive. Who knows what atrocities they accomplished in his name.
– kuhl
8 hours ago
Also, for #1, can't really blame Selmy on that front. He fought until he was in critical condition, Robert sent his own healer to save him, and then offered him the pardon after the Targaryens were dead. It's not like Selmy chose not to die fighting for his King, he just didn't really have a choice to make until after his King was dead and Robert was the new King.
– DariM
4 hours ago
add a comment |
When we look at past examples, Kingsguards' history for most part has been illustrious and a shining example of chivalry and honour. There have been rare exceptions every two or three decades or so but that doesn't match up to what happened in Robert's reign.
Robert's Seven could perhaps be called the worst seven ever assembled in the history. Even staunch Baratheon loyalists like Eddard Stark agreed on that much. When we look at the 7:
- Ser Barristan Selmy - Although famous in the seven Kingdoms for his honour, Selmy had indeed dishonoured himself by taking Robert's pardon rather than dying for Targaryens like his sworn brothers did. As his Lord Commander and comrades said, "Our knees don't bend easy [....] Kingsguards do not flee [...] We swore an oath". Yet Selmy didn't follow them in their example even though he was arguably made of the same stuff; True Steel.
- Ser Jaime Lannister - The worst Kingsguard ever on face-value. He slew his King and took Robert's pardon, just like Selmy.
- Ser Arys Oakheart - Although well-meaning and not without some honour, he was weak-willed and we often see him dishonouring himself, although at least he shows some resistance to evil. And then we see how he sold Princess Myrcella to Dornish serpants for some sweet nothings whispered in his ear in a fashion that would have enraged old Ser Gerold Hightower or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.
- Ser Boros Blount - A well known coward with little to no martial skills who was dishonourable beside. Even Ser Arys didn't shame himself as much as Boros did in his yielding of Prince Tommen.
- Ser Mandon Moore - Although a most puissant knight, he was known to be a bit psychotic, robotic and dishonourable as we see him in the affair of Joff ordering KG to beat Sansa up. Ser Arys at least objected before hitting her, Mandon Moore needed no pressure at all.
- Ser Meryn Trant - A cruel, dishonourable man who was a stain on the White Cloak he wore.
- Ser Preston Greenfield - Seems to be somewhat gifted with the sword but characterwise he was not much different from other paragons such as Blount, Moore and Trant.
Among the seven, the only real steel were the two surviving member of Aerys II's seven. The five that Robert himself chose were singularly unsuited for the job. How did Robert have such a knack for picking the worst possible aspiring white cloaks? Is there any background information or author's comments available on those appointment?
a-song-of-ice-and-fire
When we look at past examples, Kingsguards' history for most part has been illustrious and a shining example of chivalry and honour. There have been rare exceptions every two or three decades or so but that doesn't match up to what happened in Robert's reign.
Robert's Seven could perhaps be called the worst seven ever assembled in the history. Even staunch Baratheon loyalists like Eddard Stark agreed on that much. When we look at the 7:
- Ser Barristan Selmy - Although famous in the seven Kingdoms for his honour, Selmy had indeed dishonoured himself by taking Robert's pardon rather than dying for Targaryens like his sworn brothers did. As his Lord Commander and comrades said, "Our knees don't bend easy [....] Kingsguards do not flee [...] We swore an oath". Yet Selmy didn't follow them in their example even though he was arguably made of the same stuff; True Steel.
- Ser Jaime Lannister - The worst Kingsguard ever on face-value. He slew his King and took Robert's pardon, just like Selmy.
- Ser Arys Oakheart - Although well-meaning and not without some honour, he was weak-willed and we often see him dishonouring himself, although at least he shows some resistance to evil. And then we see how he sold Princess Myrcella to Dornish serpants for some sweet nothings whispered in his ear in a fashion that would have enraged old Ser Gerold Hightower or Prince Aemon the Dragonknight.
- Ser Boros Blount - A well known coward with little to no martial skills who was dishonourable beside. Even Ser Arys didn't shame himself as much as Boros did in his yielding of Prince Tommen.
- Ser Mandon Moore - Although a most puissant knight, he was known to be a bit psychotic, robotic and dishonourable as we see him in the affair of Joff ordering KG to beat Sansa up. Ser Arys at least objected before hitting her, Mandon Moore needed no pressure at all.
- Ser Meryn Trant - A cruel, dishonourable man who was a stain on the White Cloak he wore.
- Ser Preston Greenfield - Seems to be somewhat gifted with the sword but characterwise he was not much different from other paragons such as Blount, Moore and Trant.
Among the seven, the only real steel were the two surviving member of Aerys II's seven. The five that Robert himself chose were singularly unsuited for the job. How did Robert have such a knack for picking the worst possible aspiring white cloaks? Is there any background information or author's comments available on those appointment?
a-song-of-ice-and-fire
a-song-of-ice-and-fire
asked 9 hours ago
AegonAegon
42.3k15244282
42.3k15244282
3
I don't have enough for an answer at the moment, but I wonder if it is less related to the character of the current Kingsguard and more related to us not seeing the flaws in prior Kingsguards. Basically the "good old days" weren't actually as good as they seem. This would be consistent with GRRM's style of gray characters vs black and white characters. For example, Aerys' Kingsguard watched him burn people alive. Who knows what atrocities they accomplished in his name.
– kuhl
8 hours ago
Also, for #1, can't really blame Selmy on that front. He fought until he was in critical condition, Robert sent his own healer to save him, and then offered him the pardon after the Targaryens were dead. It's not like Selmy chose not to die fighting for his King, he just didn't really have a choice to make until after his King was dead and Robert was the new King.
– DariM
4 hours ago
add a comment |
3
I don't have enough for an answer at the moment, but I wonder if it is less related to the character of the current Kingsguard and more related to us not seeing the flaws in prior Kingsguards. Basically the "good old days" weren't actually as good as they seem. This would be consistent with GRRM's style of gray characters vs black and white characters. For example, Aerys' Kingsguard watched him burn people alive. Who knows what atrocities they accomplished in his name.
– kuhl
8 hours ago
Also, for #1, can't really blame Selmy on that front. He fought until he was in critical condition, Robert sent his own healer to save him, and then offered him the pardon after the Targaryens were dead. It's not like Selmy chose not to die fighting for his King, he just didn't really have a choice to make until after his King was dead and Robert was the new King.
– DariM
4 hours ago
3
3
I don't have enough for an answer at the moment, but I wonder if it is less related to the character of the current Kingsguard and more related to us not seeing the flaws in prior Kingsguards. Basically the "good old days" weren't actually as good as they seem. This would be consistent with GRRM's style of gray characters vs black and white characters. For example, Aerys' Kingsguard watched him burn people alive. Who knows what atrocities they accomplished in his name.
– kuhl
8 hours ago
I don't have enough for an answer at the moment, but I wonder if it is less related to the character of the current Kingsguard and more related to us not seeing the flaws in prior Kingsguards. Basically the "good old days" weren't actually as good as they seem. This would be consistent with GRRM's style of gray characters vs black and white characters. For example, Aerys' Kingsguard watched him burn people alive. Who knows what atrocities they accomplished in his name.
– kuhl
8 hours ago
Also, for #1, can't really blame Selmy on that front. He fought until he was in critical condition, Robert sent his own healer to save him, and then offered him the pardon after the Targaryens were dead. It's not like Selmy chose not to die fighting for his King, he just didn't really have a choice to make until after his King was dead and Robert was the new King.
– DariM
4 hours ago
Also, for #1, can't really blame Selmy on that front. He fought until he was in critical condition, Robert sent his own healer to save him, and then offered him the pardon after the Targaryens were dead. It's not like Selmy chose not to die fighting for his King, he just didn't really have a choice to make until after his King was dead and Robert was the new King.
– DariM
4 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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Because Robert Baratheon was not a good king.
Many characters repeatedly emphasize that Robert Baratheon, while a mighty warrior and a worthy knight in his prime, did not have the judgment, skill or temperament to make a good king.
Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.
A Clash of Kings, ch. 6
He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat.
A Dance with Dragons, ch. 11
Even Robert himself did not feel that he was qualified for the task, and he spent much of his time getting drunk, sleeping around, and reminiscing about his glory days.
I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
Because Robert was so unhappy doing the work of the king he allowed his advisors and his wife to influence many of his decisions, leading to several appointments to the Kingsguard that were for their loyalty to third parties rather than their worth. Varys explicitly notes as much to Eddard Stark.
Ser Boros and Ser Meryn are the queen’s creatures to the bone, and I have deep suspicions of the others. No, my lord, when the swords come out in earnest, you will be the only true friend Robert Baratheon will have.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
add a comment |
From the Citadel, GRRM replied to a similar question in this way:
5) Why were men like Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Preston Greenfield and Arys Oakheart ever accepted as White Swords? Nobody thinks much of
their skill.
GRRM: Sometimes the best knights are not eager to take such stringent vows, and you have to settle for who you can get. Other
factors also enter into the choices -- politics, favoritism, horse
trading, rewards for past service, etc. It's a plum appointment for a
younger son, or a knight from a minor house. Less so for the Great
Houses. Also, Robert had five vacancies to fill all at once, an
unusual situation -- imagine the nominations we might get if six of
the nine members of the Supreme Court all died within a few months.
Institutions like the Kingsguard change over time. The original
Knights of the Garter were warriors all, the strongest, bravest,
deadliest men of their time, with an average age under thirty. The
present Knights of the Garter are octagenarians, and their parades are
processions of wheelchairs and walkers.
So Spake Martin - The
Kingsguard
He similarly absolve Jaime and Barristan on claiming pardon on technicalities.
4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve whoever is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan choose to continue their service as Robert was crowned?
GRRM: The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.
ibid
So it seems that political motivations paved the way for more controversial appointments when we look at the members. The criteria over the years for picking Kingsguards seems to be, judging by the common traits, the following:
- The candidate must be good with sword, lance or spear.
- The candidate must not come from a too influential family although exceptions like Jaime Lannister, Prince Aemon, Gerold Hightower, Raymont Baratheon etc exist.
- The candidate must be honourable.
We also have precedent where KG cloaks are used as an incentive to get political support of different houses e.g. Loras Tyrell or Young Griff holding out white cloaks. So politics definitely plays a role.
- Preston Greenfield is likely a kin to Lord Greenfield who is a vassal to Lord Tywin Lannister, Robert's father-in-law. He seems to be appointed to appease Westerlands and Lord Tywin. The family has no significant political power.
- Ser Arys Oakheart comes from a Targaryen loyalist family from the Reach. This seems to be a conciliatory gesture towards the former loyalists just like Aegon III's seven included members from both Black and Green families. The family is a major one but not one of the Great Houses.
- Boros Blount comes from a minor house from Crownlands. Seems to be the same case as Oakheart. The family has no significant political power.
- Mandon Moore comes from the Vale and since he came to KL with Lord Jon Arryn, it seems Robert appointed Moore on Lord Arryn's request as a reward for Vale's support for Robert in the war. The family has no significant political power.
- Meryn Trant comes from a minor family in Stormlands, Robert's own ancestral holdings. This seems to be a case favouritism or reward for service of the family.
- Jaime Lannister, presumably pardoned to bind Lord Tywin to Robert's cause. The significance for making sure that most KG came from minor families should become clear from Jaime's case. The political considerations in case of powerful families are too huge to let honour be a nuisance.
- Barristan Selmy, technically not in any wrong at all according to the author. He also comes from Stormlands and is the son of the Lord of Harvest Hall, a key vassal to Baratheons.
Kuhl's comment about not seeing the flaws of prior KG is worth noting. We condemn Robert's Seven for standing by Joffrey as he lurched from one evil to another, even beating his betrothed for him. But Aerys' seven, who are considered shining paragons of chivalry, did nothing more than Joffrey's seven did as Aerys tortured his wife in a bestial manner even though they were sworn to protect the women (Jaime tried to intervene once when he stood guard outside the Queen's door but he was stopped by his comrades who said they were sworn to defend the Queen but not from the King) or burnt his "opponents" even though they were sworn to defend the helpless. Maegor's and Aegon II's seven did the same (Although there are rumours that it was the KG who killed both of them eventually).
So in conclusion:
- Robert faced the virtually unprecedented situation of filling five vacancies. The only time something of this magnitude happened before was when the order was founded and Queen Visenya picked 7 men. He was bound to make some mistakes.
- Best suited men might not have been eager to take the strict vows so Robert had to make do.
- Political considerations like rewarding his supporters, appeasing the former enemies, doing a favour to crucial allies played a role in the appointments.
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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active
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Because Robert Baratheon was not a good king.
Many characters repeatedly emphasize that Robert Baratheon, while a mighty warrior and a worthy knight in his prime, did not have the judgment, skill or temperament to make a good king.
Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.
A Clash of Kings, ch. 6
He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat.
A Dance with Dragons, ch. 11
Even Robert himself did not feel that he was qualified for the task, and he spent much of his time getting drunk, sleeping around, and reminiscing about his glory days.
I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
Because Robert was so unhappy doing the work of the king he allowed his advisors and his wife to influence many of his decisions, leading to several appointments to the Kingsguard that were for their loyalty to third parties rather than their worth. Varys explicitly notes as much to Eddard Stark.
Ser Boros and Ser Meryn are the queen’s creatures to the bone, and I have deep suspicions of the others. No, my lord, when the swords come out in earnest, you will be the only true friend Robert Baratheon will have.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
add a comment |
Because Robert Baratheon was not a good king.
Many characters repeatedly emphasize that Robert Baratheon, while a mighty warrior and a worthy knight in his prime, did not have the judgment, skill or temperament to make a good king.
Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.
A Clash of Kings, ch. 6
He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat.
A Dance with Dragons, ch. 11
Even Robert himself did not feel that he was qualified for the task, and he spent much of his time getting drunk, sleeping around, and reminiscing about his glory days.
I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
Because Robert was so unhappy doing the work of the king he allowed his advisors and his wife to influence many of his decisions, leading to several appointments to the Kingsguard that were for their loyalty to third parties rather than their worth. Varys explicitly notes as much to Eddard Stark.
Ser Boros and Ser Meryn are the queen’s creatures to the bone, and I have deep suspicions of the others. No, my lord, when the swords come out in earnest, you will be the only true friend Robert Baratheon will have.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
add a comment |
Because Robert Baratheon was not a good king.
Many characters repeatedly emphasize that Robert Baratheon, while a mighty warrior and a worthy knight in his prime, did not have the judgment, skill or temperament to make a good king.
Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.
A Clash of Kings, ch. 6
He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat.
A Dance with Dragons, ch. 11
Even Robert himself did not feel that he was qualified for the task, and he spent much of his time getting drunk, sleeping around, and reminiscing about his glory days.
I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
Because Robert was so unhappy doing the work of the king he allowed his advisors and his wife to influence many of his decisions, leading to several appointments to the Kingsguard that were for their loyalty to third parties rather than their worth. Varys explicitly notes as much to Eddard Stark.
Ser Boros and Ser Meryn are the queen’s creatures to the bone, and I have deep suspicions of the others. No, my lord, when the swords come out in earnest, you will be the only true friend Robert Baratheon will have.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
Because Robert Baratheon was not a good king.
Many characters repeatedly emphasize that Robert Baratheon, while a mighty warrior and a worthy knight in his prime, did not have the judgment, skill or temperament to make a good king.
Robert was never the same after he put on that crown. Some men are like swords, made for fighting. Hang them up and they go to rust.
A Clash of Kings, ch. 6
He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat.
A Dance with Dragons, ch. 11
Even Robert himself did not feel that he was qualified for the task, and he spent much of his time getting drunk, sleeping around, and reminiscing about his glory days.
I swear to you, I was never so alive as when I was winning this throne, or so dead as now that I've won it.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
Because Robert was so unhappy doing the work of the king he allowed his advisors and his wife to influence many of his decisions, leading to several appointments to the Kingsguard that were for their loyalty to third parties rather than their worth. Varys explicitly notes as much to Eddard Stark.
Ser Boros and Ser Meryn are the queen’s creatures to the bone, and I have deep suspicions of the others. No, my lord, when the swords come out in earnest, you will be the only true friend Robert Baratheon will have.
A Game of Thrones, ch. 30
answered 8 hours ago
Kyle DoyleKyle Doyle
6,26021840
6,26021840
add a comment |
add a comment |
From the Citadel, GRRM replied to a similar question in this way:
5) Why were men like Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Preston Greenfield and Arys Oakheart ever accepted as White Swords? Nobody thinks much of
their skill.
GRRM: Sometimes the best knights are not eager to take such stringent vows, and you have to settle for who you can get. Other
factors also enter into the choices -- politics, favoritism, horse
trading, rewards for past service, etc. It's a plum appointment for a
younger son, or a knight from a minor house. Less so for the Great
Houses. Also, Robert had five vacancies to fill all at once, an
unusual situation -- imagine the nominations we might get if six of
the nine members of the Supreme Court all died within a few months.
Institutions like the Kingsguard change over time. The original
Knights of the Garter were warriors all, the strongest, bravest,
deadliest men of their time, with an average age under thirty. The
present Knights of the Garter are octagenarians, and their parades are
processions of wheelchairs and walkers.
So Spake Martin - The
Kingsguard
He similarly absolve Jaime and Barristan on claiming pardon on technicalities.
4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve whoever is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan choose to continue their service as Robert was crowned?
GRRM: The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.
ibid
So it seems that political motivations paved the way for more controversial appointments when we look at the members. The criteria over the years for picking Kingsguards seems to be, judging by the common traits, the following:
- The candidate must be good with sword, lance or spear.
- The candidate must not come from a too influential family although exceptions like Jaime Lannister, Prince Aemon, Gerold Hightower, Raymont Baratheon etc exist.
- The candidate must be honourable.
We also have precedent where KG cloaks are used as an incentive to get political support of different houses e.g. Loras Tyrell or Young Griff holding out white cloaks. So politics definitely plays a role.
- Preston Greenfield is likely a kin to Lord Greenfield who is a vassal to Lord Tywin Lannister, Robert's father-in-law. He seems to be appointed to appease Westerlands and Lord Tywin. The family has no significant political power.
- Ser Arys Oakheart comes from a Targaryen loyalist family from the Reach. This seems to be a conciliatory gesture towards the former loyalists just like Aegon III's seven included members from both Black and Green families. The family is a major one but not one of the Great Houses.
- Boros Blount comes from a minor house from Crownlands. Seems to be the same case as Oakheart. The family has no significant political power.
- Mandon Moore comes from the Vale and since he came to KL with Lord Jon Arryn, it seems Robert appointed Moore on Lord Arryn's request as a reward for Vale's support for Robert in the war. The family has no significant political power.
- Meryn Trant comes from a minor family in Stormlands, Robert's own ancestral holdings. This seems to be a case favouritism or reward for service of the family.
- Jaime Lannister, presumably pardoned to bind Lord Tywin to Robert's cause. The significance for making sure that most KG came from minor families should become clear from Jaime's case. The political considerations in case of powerful families are too huge to let honour be a nuisance.
- Barristan Selmy, technically not in any wrong at all according to the author. He also comes from Stormlands and is the son of the Lord of Harvest Hall, a key vassal to Baratheons.
Kuhl's comment about not seeing the flaws of prior KG is worth noting. We condemn Robert's Seven for standing by Joffrey as he lurched from one evil to another, even beating his betrothed for him. But Aerys' seven, who are considered shining paragons of chivalry, did nothing more than Joffrey's seven did as Aerys tortured his wife in a bestial manner even though they were sworn to protect the women (Jaime tried to intervene once when he stood guard outside the Queen's door but he was stopped by his comrades who said they were sworn to defend the Queen but not from the King) or burnt his "opponents" even though they were sworn to defend the helpless. Maegor's and Aegon II's seven did the same (Although there are rumours that it was the KG who killed both of them eventually).
So in conclusion:
- Robert faced the virtually unprecedented situation of filling five vacancies. The only time something of this magnitude happened before was when the order was founded and Queen Visenya picked 7 men. He was bound to make some mistakes.
- Best suited men might not have been eager to take the strict vows so Robert had to make do.
- Political considerations like rewarding his supporters, appeasing the former enemies, doing a favour to crucial allies played a role in the appointments.
add a comment |
From the Citadel, GRRM replied to a similar question in this way:
5) Why were men like Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Preston Greenfield and Arys Oakheart ever accepted as White Swords? Nobody thinks much of
their skill.
GRRM: Sometimes the best knights are not eager to take such stringent vows, and you have to settle for who you can get. Other
factors also enter into the choices -- politics, favoritism, horse
trading, rewards for past service, etc. It's a plum appointment for a
younger son, or a knight from a minor house. Less so for the Great
Houses. Also, Robert had five vacancies to fill all at once, an
unusual situation -- imagine the nominations we might get if six of
the nine members of the Supreme Court all died within a few months.
Institutions like the Kingsguard change over time. The original
Knights of the Garter were warriors all, the strongest, bravest,
deadliest men of their time, with an average age under thirty. The
present Knights of the Garter are octagenarians, and their parades are
processions of wheelchairs and walkers.
So Spake Martin - The
Kingsguard
He similarly absolve Jaime and Barristan on claiming pardon on technicalities.
4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve whoever is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan choose to continue their service as Robert was crowned?
GRRM: The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.
ibid
So it seems that political motivations paved the way for more controversial appointments when we look at the members. The criteria over the years for picking Kingsguards seems to be, judging by the common traits, the following:
- The candidate must be good with sword, lance or spear.
- The candidate must not come from a too influential family although exceptions like Jaime Lannister, Prince Aemon, Gerold Hightower, Raymont Baratheon etc exist.
- The candidate must be honourable.
We also have precedent where KG cloaks are used as an incentive to get political support of different houses e.g. Loras Tyrell or Young Griff holding out white cloaks. So politics definitely plays a role.
- Preston Greenfield is likely a kin to Lord Greenfield who is a vassal to Lord Tywin Lannister, Robert's father-in-law. He seems to be appointed to appease Westerlands and Lord Tywin. The family has no significant political power.
- Ser Arys Oakheart comes from a Targaryen loyalist family from the Reach. This seems to be a conciliatory gesture towards the former loyalists just like Aegon III's seven included members from both Black and Green families. The family is a major one but not one of the Great Houses.
- Boros Blount comes from a minor house from Crownlands. Seems to be the same case as Oakheart. The family has no significant political power.
- Mandon Moore comes from the Vale and since he came to KL with Lord Jon Arryn, it seems Robert appointed Moore on Lord Arryn's request as a reward for Vale's support for Robert in the war. The family has no significant political power.
- Meryn Trant comes from a minor family in Stormlands, Robert's own ancestral holdings. This seems to be a case favouritism or reward for service of the family.
- Jaime Lannister, presumably pardoned to bind Lord Tywin to Robert's cause. The significance for making sure that most KG came from minor families should become clear from Jaime's case. The political considerations in case of powerful families are too huge to let honour be a nuisance.
- Barristan Selmy, technically not in any wrong at all according to the author. He also comes from Stormlands and is the son of the Lord of Harvest Hall, a key vassal to Baratheons.
Kuhl's comment about not seeing the flaws of prior KG is worth noting. We condemn Robert's Seven for standing by Joffrey as he lurched from one evil to another, even beating his betrothed for him. But Aerys' seven, who are considered shining paragons of chivalry, did nothing more than Joffrey's seven did as Aerys tortured his wife in a bestial manner even though they were sworn to protect the women (Jaime tried to intervene once when he stood guard outside the Queen's door but he was stopped by his comrades who said they were sworn to defend the Queen but not from the King) or burnt his "opponents" even though they were sworn to defend the helpless. Maegor's and Aegon II's seven did the same (Although there are rumours that it was the KG who killed both of them eventually).
So in conclusion:
- Robert faced the virtually unprecedented situation of filling five vacancies. The only time something of this magnitude happened before was when the order was founded and Queen Visenya picked 7 men. He was bound to make some mistakes.
- Best suited men might not have been eager to take the strict vows so Robert had to make do.
- Political considerations like rewarding his supporters, appeasing the former enemies, doing a favour to crucial allies played a role in the appointments.
add a comment |
From the Citadel, GRRM replied to a similar question in this way:
5) Why were men like Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Preston Greenfield and Arys Oakheart ever accepted as White Swords? Nobody thinks much of
their skill.
GRRM: Sometimes the best knights are not eager to take such stringent vows, and you have to settle for who you can get. Other
factors also enter into the choices -- politics, favoritism, horse
trading, rewards for past service, etc. It's a plum appointment for a
younger son, or a knight from a minor house. Less so for the Great
Houses. Also, Robert had five vacancies to fill all at once, an
unusual situation -- imagine the nominations we might get if six of
the nine members of the Supreme Court all died within a few months.
Institutions like the Kingsguard change over time. The original
Knights of the Garter were warriors all, the strongest, bravest,
deadliest men of their time, with an average age under thirty. The
present Knights of the Garter are octagenarians, and their parades are
processions of wheelchairs and walkers.
So Spake Martin - The
Kingsguard
He similarly absolve Jaime and Barristan on claiming pardon on technicalities.
4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve whoever is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan choose to continue their service as Robert was crowned?
GRRM: The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.
ibid
So it seems that political motivations paved the way for more controversial appointments when we look at the members. The criteria over the years for picking Kingsguards seems to be, judging by the common traits, the following:
- The candidate must be good with sword, lance or spear.
- The candidate must not come from a too influential family although exceptions like Jaime Lannister, Prince Aemon, Gerold Hightower, Raymont Baratheon etc exist.
- The candidate must be honourable.
We also have precedent where KG cloaks are used as an incentive to get political support of different houses e.g. Loras Tyrell or Young Griff holding out white cloaks. So politics definitely plays a role.
- Preston Greenfield is likely a kin to Lord Greenfield who is a vassal to Lord Tywin Lannister, Robert's father-in-law. He seems to be appointed to appease Westerlands and Lord Tywin. The family has no significant political power.
- Ser Arys Oakheart comes from a Targaryen loyalist family from the Reach. This seems to be a conciliatory gesture towards the former loyalists just like Aegon III's seven included members from both Black and Green families. The family is a major one but not one of the Great Houses.
- Boros Blount comes from a minor house from Crownlands. Seems to be the same case as Oakheart. The family has no significant political power.
- Mandon Moore comes from the Vale and since he came to KL with Lord Jon Arryn, it seems Robert appointed Moore on Lord Arryn's request as a reward for Vale's support for Robert in the war. The family has no significant political power.
- Meryn Trant comes from a minor family in Stormlands, Robert's own ancestral holdings. This seems to be a case favouritism or reward for service of the family.
- Jaime Lannister, presumably pardoned to bind Lord Tywin to Robert's cause. The significance for making sure that most KG came from minor families should become clear from Jaime's case. The political considerations in case of powerful families are too huge to let honour be a nuisance.
- Barristan Selmy, technically not in any wrong at all according to the author. He also comes from Stormlands and is the son of the Lord of Harvest Hall, a key vassal to Baratheons.
Kuhl's comment about not seeing the flaws of prior KG is worth noting. We condemn Robert's Seven for standing by Joffrey as he lurched from one evil to another, even beating his betrothed for him. But Aerys' seven, who are considered shining paragons of chivalry, did nothing more than Joffrey's seven did as Aerys tortured his wife in a bestial manner even though they were sworn to protect the women (Jaime tried to intervene once when he stood guard outside the Queen's door but he was stopped by his comrades who said they were sworn to defend the Queen but not from the King) or burnt his "opponents" even though they were sworn to defend the helpless. Maegor's and Aegon II's seven did the same (Although there are rumours that it was the KG who killed both of them eventually).
So in conclusion:
- Robert faced the virtually unprecedented situation of filling five vacancies. The only time something of this magnitude happened before was when the order was founded and Queen Visenya picked 7 men. He was bound to make some mistakes.
- Best suited men might not have been eager to take the strict vows so Robert had to make do.
- Political considerations like rewarding his supporters, appeasing the former enemies, doing a favour to crucial allies played a role in the appointments.
From the Citadel, GRRM replied to a similar question in this way:
5) Why were men like Meryn Trant, Boros Blount, Preston Greenfield and Arys Oakheart ever accepted as White Swords? Nobody thinks much of
their skill.
GRRM: Sometimes the best knights are not eager to take such stringent vows, and you have to settle for who you can get. Other
factors also enter into the choices -- politics, favoritism, horse
trading, rewards for past service, etc. It's a plum appointment for a
younger son, or a knight from a minor house. Less so for the Great
Houses. Also, Robert had five vacancies to fill all at once, an
unusual situation -- imagine the nominations we might get if six of
the nine members of the Supreme Court all died within a few months.
Institutions like the Kingsguard change over time. The original
Knights of the Garter were warriors all, the strongest, bravest,
deadliest men of their time, with an average age under thirty. The
present Knights of the Garter are octagenarians, and their parades are
processions of wheelchairs and walkers.
So Spake Martin - The
Kingsguard
He similarly absolve Jaime and Barristan on claiming pardon on technicalities.
4) Does the oath of a Kingsguard include to serve whoever is the king, even if the new king rebelled against the old one, or did Jaime and Barristan choose to continue their service as Robert was crowned?
GRRM: The oaths did not envision rebellion, actually. Robert pardoned Barristan and Jaime, and they accepted the pardon and continued to serve.
ibid
So it seems that political motivations paved the way for more controversial appointments when we look at the members. The criteria over the years for picking Kingsguards seems to be, judging by the common traits, the following:
- The candidate must be good with sword, lance or spear.
- The candidate must not come from a too influential family although exceptions like Jaime Lannister, Prince Aemon, Gerold Hightower, Raymont Baratheon etc exist.
- The candidate must be honourable.
We also have precedent where KG cloaks are used as an incentive to get political support of different houses e.g. Loras Tyrell or Young Griff holding out white cloaks. So politics definitely plays a role.
- Preston Greenfield is likely a kin to Lord Greenfield who is a vassal to Lord Tywin Lannister, Robert's father-in-law. He seems to be appointed to appease Westerlands and Lord Tywin. The family has no significant political power.
- Ser Arys Oakheart comes from a Targaryen loyalist family from the Reach. This seems to be a conciliatory gesture towards the former loyalists just like Aegon III's seven included members from both Black and Green families. The family is a major one but not one of the Great Houses.
- Boros Blount comes from a minor house from Crownlands. Seems to be the same case as Oakheart. The family has no significant political power.
- Mandon Moore comes from the Vale and since he came to KL with Lord Jon Arryn, it seems Robert appointed Moore on Lord Arryn's request as a reward for Vale's support for Robert in the war. The family has no significant political power.
- Meryn Trant comes from a minor family in Stormlands, Robert's own ancestral holdings. This seems to be a case favouritism or reward for service of the family.
- Jaime Lannister, presumably pardoned to bind Lord Tywin to Robert's cause. The significance for making sure that most KG came from minor families should become clear from Jaime's case. The political considerations in case of powerful families are too huge to let honour be a nuisance.
- Barristan Selmy, technically not in any wrong at all according to the author. He also comes from Stormlands and is the son of the Lord of Harvest Hall, a key vassal to Baratheons.
Kuhl's comment about not seeing the flaws of prior KG is worth noting. We condemn Robert's Seven for standing by Joffrey as he lurched from one evil to another, even beating his betrothed for him. But Aerys' seven, who are considered shining paragons of chivalry, did nothing more than Joffrey's seven did as Aerys tortured his wife in a bestial manner even though they were sworn to protect the women (Jaime tried to intervene once when he stood guard outside the Queen's door but he was stopped by his comrades who said they were sworn to defend the Queen but not from the King) or burnt his "opponents" even though they were sworn to defend the helpless. Maegor's and Aegon II's seven did the same (Although there are rumours that it was the KG who killed both of them eventually).
So in conclusion:
- Robert faced the virtually unprecedented situation of filling five vacancies. The only time something of this magnitude happened before was when the order was founded and Queen Visenya picked 7 men. He was bound to make some mistakes.
- Best suited men might not have been eager to take the strict vows so Robert had to make do.
- Political considerations like rewarding his supporters, appeasing the former enemies, doing a favour to crucial allies played a role in the appointments.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
AegonAegon
42.3k15244282
42.3k15244282
add a comment |
add a comment |
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3
I don't have enough for an answer at the moment, but I wonder if it is less related to the character of the current Kingsguard and more related to us not seeing the flaws in prior Kingsguards. Basically the "good old days" weren't actually as good as they seem. This would be consistent with GRRM's style of gray characters vs black and white characters. For example, Aerys' Kingsguard watched him burn people alive. Who knows what atrocities they accomplished in his name.
– kuhl
8 hours ago
Also, for #1, can't really blame Selmy on that front. He fought until he was in critical condition, Robert sent his own healer to save him, and then offered him the pardon after the Targaryens were dead. It's not like Selmy chose not to die fighting for his King, he just didn't really have a choice to make until after his King was dead and Robert was the new King.
– DariM
4 hours ago