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8

$begingroup$

In the question Is the location of an aircraft spoiler really that vital? the accepted answer states "Surfaces behind the CoG act as stabilisers, keeping the nose pointing forward. An aeroplane has vertical and horizontal tail surfaces at the back just for this purpose."

I agree that this seems straightforward, to a layman (me). So why then were so many of the first aircraft built 'backwards'. Taking a look at the Wright Flyer

Image (C) Bay Images

as an example. There are many other examples from the earliest days of aviation. Why did many put the elevators up front, thereby destabilizing the whole thing?

aircraft-design

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

CGCampbellCGCampbell

5,7981010 gold badges5151 silver badges102102 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Could you provide some of the many other examples?
  $endgroup$
  – zymhan
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @zymhan: 14bis by Santos-Dumont, Voisin - between 1903 and 1907 all successful motorised aircraft had the horizontal "tail" up front.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  That's a huge horizontal stabiliser!
  $endgroup$
  – Koyovis
  6 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

8

$begingroup$

In the question Is the location of an aircraft spoiler really that vital? the accepted answer states "Surfaces behind the CoG act as stabilisers, keeping the nose pointing forward. An aeroplane has vertical and horizontal tail surfaces at the back just for this purpose."

I agree that this seems straightforward, to a layman (me). So why then were so many of the first aircraft built 'backwards'. Taking a look at the Wright Flyer

Image (C) Bay Images

as an example. There are many other examples from the earliest days of aviation. Why did many put the elevators up front, thereby destabilizing the whole thing?

aircraft-design

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

CGCampbellCGCampbell

5,7981010 gold badges5151 silver badges102102 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Could you provide some of the many other examples?
  $endgroup$
  – zymhan
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  1
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  @zymhan: 14bis by Santos-Dumont, Voisin - between 1903 and 1907 all successful motorised aircraft had the horizontal "tail" up front.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  That's a huge horizontal stabiliser!
  $endgroup$
  – Koyovis
  6 mins ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

In the question Is the location of an aircraft spoiler really that vital? the accepted answer states "Surfaces behind the CoG act as stabilisers, keeping the nose pointing forward. An aeroplane has vertical and horizontal tail surfaces at the back just for this purpose."

I agree that this seems straightforward, to a layman (me). So why then were so many of the first aircraft built 'backwards'. Taking a look at the Wright Flyer

Image (C) Bay Images

as an example. There are many other examples from the earliest days of aviation. Why did many put the elevators up front, thereby destabilizing the whole thing?

aircraft-design

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

CGCampbellCGCampbell

5,7981010 gold badges5151 silver badges102102 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

CGCampbellCGCampbell

5,7981010 gold badges5151 silver badges102102 bronze badges

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

CGCampbellCGCampbell

5,7981010 gold badges5151 silver badges102102 bronze badges

asked 9 hours ago

CGCampbellCGCampbell

5,7981010 gold badges5151 silver badges102102 bronze badges

asked 9 hours ago

CGCampbellCGCampbell

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3 Answers
3

active

oldest

votes

6

$begingroup$

I am not sure you are correct that most early planes placed the elevator at the front. For example, Otto Lilienthal's gliders had the tail at the rear.

The Wright brothers were strongly influenced by Lilienthal's work, but were also very anxious to avoid his fate, and believed they would obtain control he lacked by placing the elevator at the front (amongst other things).

It turned out that their Flyer was in fact very unstable, and difficult to control well - but controllable enough.

They also apparently felt that a tail at the rear would be more susceptible to landing damage.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

Daniele ProcidaDaniele Procida

7,7113434 silver badges6868 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Alphonse Penaud and Lilienthal had the tail in the back, correct. But Santos-Dumont in 1906 and Gabriel Voisin also put the horizontal tail in the front (the Voisin designs had two, one forward and one rear, to be doubly sure they can be stabilized). So in the short period from 1903 to 1907 all aircraft had the tail in front.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

$begingroup$

"Backwards" is relative, there are modern aircraft that have forward placed elevator i.e. canard designs that fly quite successfully

(source)

As for why its not more popular you can read up more on that here and here as well as in the answers to lots of questions on this site.

As for why the rights did it this way, NASA offers an explanation

The placement of the elevators at the front of aircraft is rather
unique for the Wright flyer. Modern aircraft typically have the
elevator at the rear, attached to the horizontal stabilizer. The
Wright's placed their elevator at the front to provide protection to
the pilot in the event of a crash. (The pilot of this aircraft lies
next to the engine on the lower wing.) But there is also a static
performance advantage when the elevator is placed forward. Lifting
wings have a natural tendency to flip tail over nose because of the
way the pressure is distributed.

So they were not necessarily backwards so much as different considerations were taken under advisement during the design.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

DaveDave

72.4k44 gold badges143143 silver badges259259 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Unique? And what about the 14bis by Alberto Santos-Dumont? In 1906, 100% of flying machines were canards - hardly unique if you ask me!
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Lilienthal had a special "Prellbügel" (bumper bar) fixed to his gliders to absorb potential crash loads. That saved him several times. Unfortunately, on that fateful day in August 1896 he left it off …
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

1

$begingroup$

It's not destabilizing to put the elevator or horizontal "tail" in front, as long as you place the CG sufficiently forward that a large portion of the wing itself is well behind the CG and effectively acting as a tail. The fact that the forward elevator or canard is trimmed to generate positive lift, is what allows you to place the CG well forward in this manner.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

quiet flyerquiet flyer

2,47544 silver badges3131 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Now, another related question-- why did the Wrights place vertical "curtains" in front of the CG (forward of the pilot) on some of their aircraft? It never made much sense to me.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also, the answer could note that the Wrights configuration tended to avoid a bad nose-drop in a stall.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also this answer could reference the Wrights' concerns over Lilienthal's experience as has been nicely pointed out in another answer.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  "as long as you place the CG sufficiently forward" – yes, but the Wrights forgot about this part.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

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6

$begingroup$

I am not sure you are correct that most early planes placed the elevator at the front. For example, Otto Lilienthal's gliders had the tail at the rear.

The Wright brothers were strongly influenced by Lilienthal's work, but were also very anxious to avoid his fate, and believed they would obtain control he lacked by placing the elevator at the front (amongst other things).

It turned out that their Flyer was in fact very unstable, and difficult to control well - but controllable enough.

They also apparently felt that a tail at the rear would be more susceptible to landing damage.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

Daniele ProcidaDaniele Procida

7,7113434 silver badges6868 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Alphonse Penaud and Lilienthal had the tail in the back, correct. But Santos-Dumont in 1906 and Gabriel Voisin also put the horizontal tail in the front (the Voisin designs had two, one forward and one rear, to be doubly sure they can be stabilized). So in the short period from 1903 to 1907 all aircraft had the tail in front.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

6

$begingroup$

I am not sure you are correct that most early planes placed the elevator at the front. For example, Otto Lilienthal's gliders had the tail at the rear.

The Wright brothers were strongly influenced by Lilienthal's work, but were also very anxious to avoid his fate, and believed they would obtain control he lacked by placing the elevator at the front (amongst other things).

It turned out that their Flyer was in fact very unstable, and difficult to control well - but controllable enough.

They also apparently felt that a tail at the rear would be more susceptible to landing damage.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

Daniele ProcidaDaniele Procida

7,7113434 silver badges6868 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  2
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Alphonse Penaud and Lilienthal had the tail in the back, correct. But Santos-Dumont in 1906 and Gabriel Voisin also put the horizontal tail in the front (the Voisin designs had two, one forward and one rear, to be doubly sure they can be stabilized). So in the short period from 1903 to 1907 all aircraft had the tail in front.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

I am not sure you are correct that most early planes placed the elevator at the front. For example, Otto Lilienthal's gliders had the tail at the rear.

The Wright brothers were strongly influenced by Lilienthal's work, but were also very anxious to avoid his fate, and believed they would obtain control he lacked by placing the elevator at the front (amongst other things).

It turned out that their Flyer was in fact very unstable, and difficult to control well - but controllable enough.

They also apparently felt that a tail at the rear would be more susceptible to landing damage.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

Daniele ProcidaDaniele Procida

7,7113434 silver badges6868 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

Daniele ProcidaDaniele Procida

7,7113434 silver badges6868 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

Daniele ProcidaDaniele Procida

7,7113434 silver badges6868 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

Daniele ProcidaDaniele Procida

7,7113434 silver badges6868 bronze badges

2

$begingroup$

"Backwards" is relative, there are modern aircraft that have forward placed elevator i.e. canard designs that fly quite successfully

(source)

As for why its not more popular you can read up more on that here and here as well as in the answers to lots of questions on this site.

As for why the rights did it this way, NASA offers an explanation

The placement of the elevators at the front of aircraft is rather
unique for the Wright flyer. Modern aircraft typically have the
elevator at the rear, attached to the horizontal stabilizer. The
Wright's placed their elevator at the front to provide protection to
the pilot in the event of a crash. (The pilot of this aircraft lies
next to the engine on the lower wing.) But there is also a static
performance advantage when the elevator is placed forward. Lifting
wings have a natural tendency to flip tail over nose because of the
way the pressure is distributed.

So they were not necessarily backwards so much as different considerations were taken under advisement during the design.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

DaveDave

72.4k44 gold badges143143 silver badges259259 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Unique? And what about the 14bis by Alberto Santos-Dumont? In 1906, 100% of flying machines were canards - hardly unique if you ask me!
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Lilienthal had a special "Prellbügel" (bumper bar) fixed to his gliders to absorb potential crash loads. That saved him several times. Unfortunately, on that fateful day in August 1896 he left it off …
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

2

$begingroup$

"Backwards" is relative, there are modern aircraft that have forward placed elevator i.e. canard designs that fly quite successfully

(source)

As for why its not more popular you can read up more on that here and here as well as in the answers to lots of questions on this site.

As for why the rights did it this way, NASA offers an explanation

The placement of the elevators at the front of aircraft is rather
unique for the Wright flyer. Modern aircraft typically have the
elevator at the rear, attached to the horizontal stabilizer. The
Wright's placed their elevator at the front to provide protection to
the pilot in the event of a crash. (The pilot of this aircraft lies
next to the engine on the lower wing.) But there is also a static
performance advantage when the elevator is placed forward. Lifting
wings have a natural tendency to flip tail over nose because of the
way the pressure is distributed.

So they were not necessarily backwards so much as different considerations were taken under advisement during the design.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

DaveDave

72.4k44 gold badges143143 silver badges259259 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Unique? And what about the 14bis by Alberto Santos-Dumont? In 1906, 100% of flying machines were canards - hardly unique if you ask me!
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Lilienthal had a special "Prellbügel" (bumper bar) fixed to his gliders to absorb potential crash loads. That saved him several times. Unfortunately, on that fateful day in August 1896 he left it off …
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

"Backwards" is relative, there are modern aircraft that have forward placed elevator i.e. canard designs that fly quite successfully

(source)

As for why its not more popular you can read up more on that here and here as well as in the answers to lots of questions on this site.

As for why the rights did it this way, NASA offers an explanation

The placement of the elevators at the front of aircraft is rather
unique for the Wright flyer. Modern aircraft typically have the
elevator at the rear, attached to the horizontal stabilizer. The
Wright's placed their elevator at the front to provide protection to
the pilot in the event of a crash. (The pilot of this aircraft lies
next to the engine on the lower wing.) But there is also a static
performance advantage when the elevator is placed forward. Lifting
wings have a natural tendency to flip tail over nose because of the
way the pressure is distributed.

So they were not necessarily backwards so much as different considerations were taken under advisement during the design.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

DaveDave

72.4k44 gold badges143143 silver badges259259 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

DaveDave

72.4k44 gold badges143143 silver badges259259 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

DaveDave

72.4k44 gold badges143143 silver badges259259 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

DaveDave

72.4k44 gold badges143143 silver badges259259 bronze badges

1

$begingroup$

It's not destabilizing to put the elevator or horizontal "tail" in front, as long as you place the CG sufficiently forward that a large portion of the wing itself is well behind the CG and effectively acting as a tail. The fact that the forward elevator or canard is trimmed to generate positive lift, is what allows you to place the CG well forward in this manner.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

quiet flyerquiet flyer

2,47544 silver badges3131 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Now, another related question-- why did the Wrights place vertical "curtains" in front of the CG (forward of the pilot) on some of their aircraft? It never made much sense to me.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also, the answer could note that the Wrights configuration tended to avoid a bad nose-drop in a stall.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also this answer could reference the Wrights' concerns over Lilienthal's experience as has been nicely pointed out in another answer.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  "as long as you place the CG sufficiently forward" – yes, but the Wrights forgot about this part.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

1

$begingroup$

It's not destabilizing to put the elevator or horizontal "tail" in front, as long as you place the CG sufficiently forward that a large portion of the wing itself is well behind the CG and effectively acting as a tail. The fact that the forward elevator or canard is trimmed to generate positive lift, is what allows you to place the CG well forward in this manner.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

quiet flyerquiet flyer

2,47544 silver badges3131 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Now, another related question-- why did the Wrights place vertical "curtains" in front of the CG (forward of the pilot) on some of their aircraft? It never made much sense to me.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also, the answer could note that the Wrights configuration tended to avoid a bad nose-drop in a stall.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Also this answer could reference the Wrights' concerns over Lilienthal's experience as has been nicely pointed out in another answer.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  8 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  "as long as you place the CG sufficiently forward" – yes, but the Wrights forgot about this part.
  $endgroup$
  – Peter Kämpf
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment | 

$begingroup$

It's not destabilizing to put the elevator or horizontal "tail" in front, as long as you place the CG sufficiently forward that a large portion of the wing itself is well behind the CG and effectively acting as a tail. The fact that the forward elevator or canard is trimmed to generate positive lift, is what allows you to place the CG well forward in this manner.

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

quiet flyerquiet flyer

2,47544 silver badges3131 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

answered 8 hours ago

quiet flyerquiet flyer

2,47544 silver badges3131 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

quiet flyerquiet flyer

2,47544 silver badges3131 bronze badges

answered 8 hours ago

quiet flyerquiet flyer

2,47544 silver badges3131 bronze badges