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Can the ground attached to neutral fool a receptacle tester?
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I'm using a basic outlet tester like the one from picture below. Let's say someone wired the ground to the neutral in some outlet, to provide a fake ground. What would the tester report? Would it be "CORRECT" or would it be something else?
In case it reports "CORRECT" (wrongly, of course), is there some easy way to test that the ground is fake? By easy I mean not having to open the outlet...
electrical receptacle grounding neutral grounding-and-bonding
add a comment |
I'm using a basic outlet tester like the one from picture below. Let's say someone wired the ground to the neutral in some outlet, to provide a fake ground. What would the tester report? Would it be "CORRECT" or would it be something else?
In case it reports "CORRECT" (wrongly, of course), is there some easy way to test that the ground is fake? By easy I mean not having to open the outlet...
electrical receptacle grounding neutral grounding-and-bonding
1
put a heavy load on the power outlet ... measure the voltage between neutral and ground ... zero voltage indicates that the two are shorted at the plug
– jsotola
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I'm using a basic outlet tester like the one from picture below. Let's say someone wired the ground to the neutral in some outlet, to provide a fake ground. What would the tester report? Would it be "CORRECT" or would it be something else?
In case it reports "CORRECT" (wrongly, of course), is there some easy way to test that the ground is fake? By easy I mean not having to open the outlet...
electrical receptacle grounding neutral grounding-and-bonding
I'm using a basic outlet tester like the one from picture below. Let's say someone wired the ground to the neutral in some outlet, to provide a fake ground. What would the tester report? Would it be "CORRECT" or would it be something else?
In case it reports "CORRECT" (wrongly, of course), is there some easy way to test that the ground is fake? By easy I mean not having to open the outlet...
electrical receptacle grounding neutral grounding-and-bonding
electrical receptacle grounding neutral grounding-and-bonding
asked 10 hours ago
fernacolofernacolo
1591 silver badge5 bronze badges
1591 silver badge5 bronze badges
1
put a heavy load on the power outlet ... measure the voltage between neutral and ground ... zero voltage indicates that the two are shorted at the plug
– jsotola
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
put a heavy load on the power outlet ... measure the voltage between neutral and ground ... zero voltage indicates that the two are shorted at the plug
– jsotola
5 hours ago
1
1
put a heavy load on the power outlet ... measure the voltage between neutral and ground ... zero voltage indicates that the two are shorted at the plug
– jsotola
5 hours ago
put a heavy load on the power outlet ... measure the voltage between neutral and ground ... zero voltage indicates that the two are shorted at the plug
– jsotola
5 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
The tester will show "correct". Opening the outlet is the only way to check it that I know of.
add a comment |
The tester can't tell the difference. One way to look at is that electrically, since neutral and ground are already bonded at one location (normally the main panel), the electrons don't know the difference. But the other way to think about it is to look at what the tester is actually doing.
What do the Lights Indicate?
These testers are actually 3 simple lights connected as follows (left to right on your particular tester, others may vary):
- Hot to Ground
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Ground is functional.
Note that Ground being functional in this context does not mean "connected to a water pipe or rebar or a ground rod", though that alone might be enough. It means "ground connected to neutral in the main panel".
That also means that if Ground is connected directly to neutral in this receptacle box, the tester does not see that as a problem.
- Hot to Neutral
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Neutral is functional.
- Neutral to Ground
Since Neutral and Ground are bonded in the main panel, this light is normally off. Connecting them inside the receptacle box won't make any difference. Where this does light up is if something else is really messed up so that current flows between neutral and ground. The most likely scenarios are Hot swapped with either Neutral or Ground, so the tester "identifies" those conditions but those are really not guarantees as there are other possible situations.
What do the Light Combinations Mean?
There are 8 possible combinations. But "all on" would be really strange (but possible if someone wires a 120V receptacle to a 240V breaker) so that is not included. The other combination not included is Off, Off, On. That would mean current flowing only between Ground and Neutral (the exact opposite of this question), and no current flowing between Hot & Neutral or between Hot & Ground, which would be pretty hard to do (Open Hot + Hot/Neutral swapped?)
Just remember, the titles assigned are based on the most common scenarios but are not the only possible problems.
Off, On, Off = Open Ground - Hot to Neutral but no Hot to Ground
On, Off, Off = Open Neutral - Hot to Ground but no Hot to Neutral
Off, Off, Off = Open Hot - But really means "nothing at all" - e.g., could be "Open Ground + Open Neutral but Hot OK" - so don't assume this means there is no hot wire present - that could be a deadly mistake!
On, Off, On = Hot/Ground Reverse - Hot to Ground OK, but not Hot to Neutral, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Ground wires are reversed but it could be something else.
Off, On, On = Hot/Neutral Reverse - Hot to Neutral OK, but not Hot to Ground, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Neutral wires are reversed but it could be something else.
On, On, Off = Correct - Except, it really only tells you that Hot is in the right place and that all Ground & Neutral are, collectively, correct. It does not tell you, for example, if Ground & Neutral are reversed or, as originally asked, if Ground & Neutral are combined.
add a comment |
Yes, it will misread. Because magic-8-ball testers are built for one thing: a quick pass/fail test for brand new wiring you just installed.
Obviously, in new wiring, you don't have a bunch of the kinds of problems you have in old wiring, like people bootlegging ground off neutral. The device is simply not made to solve those problems.
So if you misuse the tool to test old wiring, the reports (what it says on the label) will often be misleading, and will send you on wild goose chases. That's why I call it a magic 8-ball tester! An actual magic-8-ball would be about as reliable. It is useful in two ways:
- The lights themselves can give you hints (provided you know how they are connected, see manassehkatz's discussion)
- The "GFCI test" button can be helpful when testing downline receptacles fed off a GFCI elsewhere.
With old wiring there's no substitute for opening it up and having a look.
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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The tester will show "correct". Opening the outlet is the only way to check it that I know of.
add a comment |
The tester will show "correct". Opening the outlet is the only way to check it that I know of.
add a comment |
The tester will show "correct". Opening the outlet is the only way to check it that I know of.
The tester will show "correct". Opening the outlet is the only way to check it that I know of.
answered 9 hours ago
JACKJACK
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1,44110 bronze badges
add a comment |
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The tester can't tell the difference. One way to look at is that electrically, since neutral and ground are already bonded at one location (normally the main panel), the electrons don't know the difference. But the other way to think about it is to look at what the tester is actually doing.
What do the Lights Indicate?
These testers are actually 3 simple lights connected as follows (left to right on your particular tester, others may vary):
- Hot to Ground
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Ground is functional.
Note that Ground being functional in this context does not mean "connected to a water pipe or rebar or a ground rod", though that alone might be enough. It means "ground connected to neutral in the main panel".
That also means that if Ground is connected directly to neutral in this receptacle box, the tester does not see that as a problem.
- Hot to Neutral
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Neutral is functional.
- Neutral to Ground
Since Neutral and Ground are bonded in the main panel, this light is normally off. Connecting them inside the receptacle box won't make any difference. Where this does light up is if something else is really messed up so that current flows between neutral and ground. The most likely scenarios are Hot swapped with either Neutral or Ground, so the tester "identifies" those conditions but those are really not guarantees as there are other possible situations.
What do the Light Combinations Mean?
There are 8 possible combinations. But "all on" would be really strange (but possible if someone wires a 120V receptacle to a 240V breaker) so that is not included. The other combination not included is Off, Off, On. That would mean current flowing only between Ground and Neutral (the exact opposite of this question), and no current flowing between Hot & Neutral or between Hot & Ground, which would be pretty hard to do (Open Hot + Hot/Neutral swapped?)
Just remember, the titles assigned are based on the most common scenarios but are not the only possible problems.
Off, On, Off = Open Ground - Hot to Neutral but no Hot to Ground
On, Off, Off = Open Neutral - Hot to Ground but no Hot to Neutral
Off, Off, Off = Open Hot - But really means "nothing at all" - e.g., could be "Open Ground + Open Neutral but Hot OK" - so don't assume this means there is no hot wire present - that could be a deadly mistake!
On, Off, On = Hot/Ground Reverse - Hot to Ground OK, but not Hot to Neutral, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Ground wires are reversed but it could be something else.
Off, On, On = Hot/Neutral Reverse - Hot to Neutral OK, but not Hot to Ground, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Neutral wires are reversed but it could be something else.
On, On, Off = Correct - Except, it really only tells you that Hot is in the right place and that all Ground & Neutral are, collectively, correct. It does not tell you, for example, if Ground & Neutral are reversed or, as originally asked, if Ground & Neutral are combined.
add a comment |
The tester can't tell the difference. One way to look at is that electrically, since neutral and ground are already bonded at one location (normally the main panel), the electrons don't know the difference. But the other way to think about it is to look at what the tester is actually doing.
What do the Lights Indicate?
These testers are actually 3 simple lights connected as follows (left to right on your particular tester, others may vary):
- Hot to Ground
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Ground is functional.
Note that Ground being functional in this context does not mean "connected to a water pipe or rebar or a ground rod", though that alone might be enough. It means "ground connected to neutral in the main panel".
That also means that if Ground is connected directly to neutral in this receptacle box, the tester does not see that as a problem.
- Hot to Neutral
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Neutral is functional.
- Neutral to Ground
Since Neutral and Ground are bonded in the main panel, this light is normally off. Connecting them inside the receptacle box won't make any difference. Where this does light up is if something else is really messed up so that current flows between neutral and ground. The most likely scenarios are Hot swapped with either Neutral or Ground, so the tester "identifies" those conditions but those are really not guarantees as there are other possible situations.
What do the Light Combinations Mean?
There are 8 possible combinations. But "all on" would be really strange (but possible if someone wires a 120V receptacle to a 240V breaker) so that is not included. The other combination not included is Off, Off, On. That would mean current flowing only between Ground and Neutral (the exact opposite of this question), and no current flowing between Hot & Neutral or between Hot & Ground, which would be pretty hard to do (Open Hot + Hot/Neutral swapped?)
Just remember, the titles assigned are based on the most common scenarios but are not the only possible problems.
Off, On, Off = Open Ground - Hot to Neutral but no Hot to Ground
On, Off, Off = Open Neutral - Hot to Ground but no Hot to Neutral
Off, Off, Off = Open Hot - But really means "nothing at all" - e.g., could be "Open Ground + Open Neutral but Hot OK" - so don't assume this means there is no hot wire present - that could be a deadly mistake!
On, Off, On = Hot/Ground Reverse - Hot to Ground OK, but not Hot to Neutral, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Ground wires are reversed but it could be something else.
Off, On, On = Hot/Neutral Reverse - Hot to Neutral OK, but not Hot to Ground, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Neutral wires are reversed but it could be something else.
On, On, Off = Correct - Except, it really only tells you that Hot is in the right place and that all Ground & Neutral are, collectively, correct. It does not tell you, for example, if Ground & Neutral are reversed or, as originally asked, if Ground & Neutral are combined.
add a comment |
The tester can't tell the difference. One way to look at is that electrically, since neutral and ground are already bonded at one location (normally the main panel), the electrons don't know the difference. But the other way to think about it is to look at what the tester is actually doing.
What do the Lights Indicate?
These testers are actually 3 simple lights connected as follows (left to right on your particular tester, others may vary):
- Hot to Ground
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Ground is functional.
Note that Ground being functional in this context does not mean "connected to a water pipe or rebar or a ground rod", though that alone might be enough. It means "ground connected to neutral in the main panel".
That also means that if Ground is connected directly to neutral in this receptacle box, the tester does not see that as a problem.
- Hot to Neutral
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Neutral is functional.
- Neutral to Ground
Since Neutral and Ground are bonded in the main panel, this light is normally off. Connecting them inside the receptacle box won't make any difference. Where this does light up is if something else is really messed up so that current flows between neutral and ground. The most likely scenarios are Hot swapped with either Neutral or Ground, so the tester "identifies" those conditions but those are really not guarantees as there are other possible situations.
What do the Light Combinations Mean?
There are 8 possible combinations. But "all on" would be really strange (but possible if someone wires a 120V receptacle to a 240V breaker) so that is not included. The other combination not included is Off, Off, On. That would mean current flowing only between Ground and Neutral (the exact opposite of this question), and no current flowing between Hot & Neutral or between Hot & Ground, which would be pretty hard to do (Open Hot + Hot/Neutral swapped?)
Just remember, the titles assigned are based on the most common scenarios but are not the only possible problems.
Off, On, Off = Open Ground - Hot to Neutral but no Hot to Ground
On, Off, Off = Open Neutral - Hot to Ground but no Hot to Neutral
Off, Off, Off = Open Hot - But really means "nothing at all" - e.g., could be "Open Ground + Open Neutral but Hot OK" - so don't assume this means there is no hot wire present - that could be a deadly mistake!
On, Off, On = Hot/Ground Reverse - Hot to Ground OK, but not Hot to Neutral, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Ground wires are reversed but it could be something else.
Off, On, On = Hot/Neutral Reverse - Hot to Neutral OK, but not Hot to Ground, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Neutral wires are reversed but it could be something else.
On, On, Off = Correct - Except, it really only tells you that Hot is in the right place and that all Ground & Neutral are, collectively, correct. It does not tell you, for example, if Ground & Neutral are reversed or, as originally asked, if Ground & Neutral are combined.
The tester can't tell the difference. One way to look at is that electrically, since neutral and ground are already bonded at one location (normally the main panel), the electrons don't know the difference. But the other way to think about it is to look at what the tester is actually doing.
What do the Lights Indicate?
These testers are actually 3 simple lights connected as follows (left to right on your particular tester, others may vary):
- Hot to Ground
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Ground is functional.
Note that Ground being functional in this context does not mean "connected to a water pipe or rebar or a ground rod", though that alone might be enough. It means "ground connected to neutral in the main panel".
That also means that if Ground is connected directly to neutral in this receptacle box, the tester does not see that as a problem.
- Hot to Neutral
This will light up provided that Hot is indeed Hot (and not Neutral) and Neutral is functional.
- Neutral to Ground
Since Neutral and Ground are bonded in the main panel, this light is normally off. Connecting them inside the receptacle box won't make any difference. Where this does light up is if something else is really messed up so that current flows between neutral and ground. The most likely scenarios are Hot swapped with either Neutral or Ground, so the tester "identifies" those conditions but those are really not guarantees as there are other possible situations.
What do the Light Combinations Mean?
There are 8 possible combinations. But "all on" would be really strange (but possible if someone wires a 120V receptacle to a 240V breaker) so that is not included. The other combination not included is Off, Off, On. That would mean current flowing only between Ground and Neutral (the exact opposite of this question), and no current flowing between Hot & Neutral or between Hot & Ground, which would be pretty hard to do (Open Hot + Hot/Neutral swapped?)
Just remember, the titles assigned are based on the most common scenarios but are not the only possible problems.
Off, On, Off = Open Ground - Hot to Neutral but no Hot to Ground
On, Off, Off = Open Neutral - Hot to Ground but no Hot to Neutral
Off, Off, Off = Open Hot - But really means "nothing at all" - e.g., could be "Open Ground + Open Neutral but Hot OK" - so don't assume this means there is no hot wire present - that could be a deadly mistake!
On, Off, On = Hot/Ground Reverse - Hot to Ground OK, but not Hot to Neutral, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Ground wires are reversed but it could be something else.
Off, On, On = Hot/Neutral Reverse - Hot to Neutral OK, but not Hot to Ground, so the likely situation is that the Hot & Neutral wires are reversed but it could be something else.
On, On, Off = Correct - Except, it really only tells you that Hot is in the right place and that all Ground & Neutral are, collectively, correct. It does not tell you, for example, if Ground & Neutral are reversed or, as originally asked, if Ground & Neutral are combined.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
manassehkatzmanassehkatz
16.1k1 gold badge23 silver badges50 bronze badges
16.1k1 gold badge23 silver badges50 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
Yes, it will misread. Because magic-8-ball testers are built for one thing: a quick pass/fail test for brand new wiring you just installed.
Obviously, in new wiring, you don't have a bunch of the kinds of problems you have in old wiring, like people bootlegging ground off neutral. The device is simply not made to solve those problems.
So if you misuse the tool to test old wiring, the reports (what it says on the label) will often be misleading, and will send you on wild goose chases. That's why I call it a magic 8-ball tester! An actual magic-8-ball would be about as reliable. It is useful in two ways:
- The lights themselves can give you hints (provided you know how they are connected, see manassehkatz's discussion)
- The "GFCI test" button can be helpful when testing downline receptacles fed off a GFCI elsewhere.
With old wiring there's no substitute for opening it up and having a look.
add a comment |
Yes, it will misread. Because magic-8-ball testers are built for one thing: a quick pass/fail test for brand new wiring you just installed.
Obviously, in new wiring, you don't have a bunch of the kinds of problems you have in old wiring, like people bootlegging ground off neutral. The device is simply not made to solve those problems.
So if you misuse the tool to test old wiring, the reports (what it says on the label) will often be misleading, and will send you on wild goose chases. That's why I call it a magic 8-ball tester! An actual magic-8-ball would be about as reliable. It is useful in two ways:
- The lights themselves can give you hints (provided you know how they are connected, see manassehkatz's discussion)
- The "GFCI test" button can be helpful when testing downline receptacles fed off a GFCI elsewhere.
With old wiring there's no substitute for opening it up and having a look.
add a comment |
Yes, it will misread. Because magic-8-ball testers are built for one thing: a quick pass/fail test for brand new wiring you just installed.
Obviously, in new wiring, you don't have a bunch of the kinds of problems you have in old wiring, like people bootlegging ground off neutral. The device is simply not made to solve those problems.
So if you misuse the tool to test old wiring, the reports (what it says on the label) will often be misleading, and will send you on wild goose chases. That's why I call it a magic 8-ball tester! An actual magic-8-ball would be about as reliable. It is useful in two ways:
- The lights themselves can give you hints (provided you know how they are connected, see manassehkatz's discussion)
- The "GFCI test" button can be helpful when testing downline receptacles fed off a GFCI elsewhere.
With old wiring there's no substitute for opening it up and having a look.
Yes, it will misread. Because magic-8-ball testers are built for one thing: a quick pass/fail test for brand new wiring you just installed.
Obviously, in new wiring, you don't have a bunch of the kinds of problems you have in old wiring, like people bootlegging ground off neutral. The device is simply not made to solve those problems.
So if you misuse the tool to test old wiring, the reports (what it says on the label) will often be misleading, and will send you on wild goose chases. That's why I call it a magic 8-ball tester! An actual magic-8-ball would be about as reliable. It is useful in two ways:
- The lights themselves can give you hints (provided you know how they are connected, see manassehkatz's discussion)
- The "GFCI test" button can be helpful when testing downline receptacles fed off a GFCI elsewhere.
With old wiring there's no substitute for opening it up and having a look.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
HarperHarper
91.2k6 gold badges66 silver badges188 bronze badges
91.2k6 gold badges66 silver badges188 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
put a heavy load on the power outlet ... measure the voltage between neutral and ground ... zero voltage indicates that the two are shorted at the plug
– jsotola
5 hours ago