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Is charge point-like or a smear?


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$begingroup$


Coulomb gave the law for the force between two static charges while considering them to be points in space. But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.



Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.



So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/24001/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/41676/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/119732/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/277565/2451 and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    9 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Qmechanic, you edited the tags on the assumption that OP wants an answer from the POV of particle physics. I think it's more likely they want an answer about electromagnetics (i.e. how is the differential form of Gauss' Law justified if electrons are point particles).
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton: To me the question reads as obviously being a question about particle physics, especially given the second paragraph.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell, the 2nd paragraph is probably asking about section 8-6 in Feynman Vol 2, available online here. This is part of a discussion of electrostatics, not particle physics.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed the reference in my question pertains to the same section in Feynman Vol 2
    $endgroup$
    – Gariman Singh
    1 hour ago


















2












$begingroup$


Coulomb gave the law for the force between two static charges while considering them to be points in space. But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.



Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.



So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    Related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/24001/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/41676/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/119732/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/277565/2451 and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    9 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Qmechanic, you edited the tags on the assumption that OP wants an answer from the POV of particle physics. I think it's more likely they want an answer about electromagnetics (i.e. how is the differential form of Gauss' Law justified if electrons are point particles).
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton: To me the question reads as obviously being a question about particle physics, especially given the second paragraph.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell, the 2nd paragraph is probably asking about section 8-6 in Feynman Vol 2, available online here. This is part of a discussion of electrostatics, not particle physics.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed the reference in my question pertains to the same section in Feynman Vol 2
    $endgroup$
    – Gariman Singh
    1 hour ago














2












2








2


3



$begingroup$


Coulomb gave the law for the force between two static charges while considering them to be points in space. But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.



Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.



So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Coulomb gave the law for the force between two static charges while considering them to be points in space. But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.



Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.



So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?







electrostatics particle-physics charge point-particles






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 2 hours ago









The Photon

11.1k1 gold badge20 silver badges36 bronze badges




11.1k1 gold badge20 silver badges36 bronze badges










asked 9 hours ago









Gariman SinghGariman Singh

6510 bronze badges




6510 bronze badges















  • $begingroup$
    Related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/24001/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/41676/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/119732/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/277565/2451 and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    9 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Qmechanic, you edited the tags on the assumption that OP wants an answer from the POV of particle physics. I think it's more likely they want an answer about electromagnetics (i.e. how is the differential form of Gauss' Law justified if electrons are point particles).
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton: To me the question reads as obviously being a question about particle physics, especially given the second paragraph.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell, the 2nd paragraph is probably asking about section 8-6 in Feynman Vol 2, available online here. This is part of a discussion of electrostatics, not particle physics.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed the reference in my question pertains to the same section in Feynman Vol 2
    $endgroup$
    – Gariman Singh
    1 hour ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/24001/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/41676/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/119732/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/277565/2451 and links therein.
    $endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    9 hours ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @Qmechanic, you edited the tags on the assumption that OP wants an answer from the POV of particle physics. I think it's more likely they want an answer about electromagnetics (i.e. how is the differential form of Gauss' Law justified if electrons are point particles).
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    7 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @ThePhoton: To me the question reads as obviously being a question about particle physics, especially given the second paragraph.
    $endgroup$
    – Ben Crowell
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @BenCrowell, the 2nd paragraph is probably asking about section 8-6 in Feynman Vol 2, available online here. This is part of a discussion of electrostatics, not particle physics.
    $endgroup$
    – The Photon
    6 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    Indeed the reference in my question pertains to the same section in Feynman Vol 2
    $endgroup$
    – Gariman Singh
    1 hour ago
















$begingroup$
Related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/24001/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/41676/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/119732/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/277565/2451 and links therein.
$endgroup$
– Qmechanic
9 hours ago






$begingroup$
Related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/24001/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/41676/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/119732/2451 , physics.stackexchange.com/q/277565/2451 and links therein.
$endgroup$
– Qmechanic
9 hours ago






1




1




$begingroup$
@Qmechanic, you edited the tags on the assumption that OP wants an answer from the POV of particle physics. I think it's more likely they want an answer about electromagnetics (i.e. how is the differential form of Gauss' Law justified if electrons are point particles).
$endgroup$
– The Photon
7 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Qmechanic, you edited the tags on the assumption that OP wants an answer from the POV of particle physics. I think it's more likely they want an answer about electromagnetics (i.e. how is the differential form of Gauss' Law justified if electrons are point particles).
$endgroup$
– The Photon
7 hours ago












$begingroup$
@ThePhoton: To me the question reads as obviously being a question about particle physics, especially given the second paragraph.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
@ThePhoton: To me the question reads as obviously being a question about particle physics, especially given the second paragraph.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
6 hours ago












$begingroup$
@BenCrowell, the 2nd paragraph is probably asking about section 8-6 in Feynman Vol 2, available online here. This is part of a discussion of electrostatics, not particle physics.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
@BenCrowell, the 2nd paragraph is probably asking about section 8-6 in Feynman Vol 2, available online here. This is part of a discussion of electrostatics, not particle physics.
$endgroup$
– The Photon
6 hours ago












$begingroup$
Indeed the reference in my question pertains to the same section in Feynman Vol 2
$endgroup$
– Gariman Singh
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Indeed the reference in my question pertains to the same section in Feynman Vol 2
$endgroup$
– Gariman Singh
1 hour ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

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4












$begingroup$

It's not a trivial matter to define this question in such a way that it has a definite answer, and you certainly can't get a good answer within classical physics.




Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




Yes, this is a nice way approaching the issue. Now consider that classical electromagnetism is inherently a relativistic theory, so $E=mc^2$ applies. For a particle with mass $m$, charge $q$, and radius $r$, we would expect that the inertia $m$ of the particle can't be greater than $sim E/c^2$, where $E$ is the energy in the electric field. This results in $rgtrsim r_0=ke^2/mc^2$, where $r_0$ is called the classical electron radius, although it doesn't just apply to electrons.



For an electron, $r_0$ is on the order of $10^{-15}$ meters. Particle physics experiments became good enough decades ago to search for internal structure in the electron at this scale, and it doesn't exist, in the sense that the electron cannot be a composite particle such as a proton at this scale. This would suggest that an electron is a point particle. However, classical electromagnetism becomes an inconsistent theory if you consider point particles with $rlesssim r_0$.



You can try to get around this by modeling an electron as a rigid sphere or something, with some charge density, say a constant one. This was explored extensively ca. 1900, and it didn't work. When Einstein published the theory of special relativity, he clarified why this idea had been failing. It was failing because relativity doesn't allow rigid objects. (In such an object, the speed of sound would be infinite, but relativity doesn't allow signaling faster than $c$.)



What this proves is that if we want to describe the charge and electric field of an electron at scales below $r_0$, we need some other theory of nature than classical E&M. That theory is quantum mechanics. In nonrigorous language, quantum mechanics describes the scene at this scale in terms of rapid, random quantum fluctuations, with particle-antiparticle pairs springing into existence and then reannihilating.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$























    1












    $begingroup$

    It depends on scale.



    Electrons can usually be viewed as point-like when viewed on a scale much larger than an individual atom.



    But semiconductors often have on the order of $10^{12}- 10^{23}$ free electrons per ${rm cm^{3}}$, depending on temperature and doping. Copper, as an example of a metal, has about $10^{23}$ free electrons per $rm cm^3$.



    In these materials, if the volume you're considering is even a few $rm mu m^3$, the error produced by assuming the charge is smeared out instead of localized in thousands or trillions of points is very small.



    If you're studying some system with only a few charge carriers present, then you might need to consider the charge to be localized to make accurate predictions about it.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$















    • $begingroup$
      But what is charge in reality?
      $endgroup$
      – Gariman Singh
      9 hours ago






    • 1




      $begingroup$
      @GarimanSingh, charge is a property of certain subatomic particles that causes them to attract and repel each other, and to produce electromagnetic waves. It doesn't exist on its own without those particles.
      $endgroup$
      – The Photon
      9 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      For an EE answer, see What is a Charge?. For a more physics-y answer, search "what is charge" on this site.
      $endgroup$
      – The Photon
      9 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      Nevertheless, electrons are considered point particles hence point charges.
      $endgroup$
      – my2cts
      8 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      This answer seems a little off to me. It treats the question as if it were a question about condensed matter physics, whereas it seems clear to me that an appropriate answer is one involving the relevant particle physics. The OP is asking about properties of the electron itself, not anything specific to some form of matter such as semiconductors or copper.
      $endgroup$
      – Ben Crowell
      7 hours ago



















    1












    $begingroup$


    But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.




    Actually differential Gauss' law is valid even for point charges. For point charge $q$ at point $mathbf x_0$, instead of charge density, we use charge distribution $rho(mathbf x) = qdelta(mathbf x-mathbf x_0)$.




    Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




    That problem is a separate question. There are consistent theories both for point and extended charges with finite energy in both cases. Neither kind of theory can supply us with hint on whether real particles are points or extended bodies. This must be investigated by experiments.




    So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?




    For electrons, we don't know; all experiments are consistent with point particle, but it can be extended body of small enough size. The current decades old limit on electron size is somewhere near 1e-18 m.



    For protons, based on scattering experiments and their understanding in terms of quantum theory of scattering, these are believed to have non-zero size (of charge distribution) around 1e-15 m.






    share|cite|improve this answer









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      0












      $begingroup$

      Just like particle-wave dual nature, due to which one may perceive particles as waves thus not centered at a point but rather dispersed through space (and vice versa for waves being particle like), the charges may be perceived either like they are centered at some particular points, or smeared through space.



      Hence, when talking about the Electrostatic Potential energy, one may think of it as associated with particles, or associated with the field, thus smoothly distributed through space (we mostly consider the latter in Capacitors). Either one is correct.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$























        -1












        $begingroup$

        Electrons are considered point charges. Protons have a radius somewhat smaller than a femtometer. There is a controversy over the precise value of the proton radius, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_radius_puzzle. So a proton can be considered a smear, albeit a very tiny one.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$











        • 1




          $begingroup$
          Viewed on the scale of an individual atom, or in an electron gas, they're not well modeled as point particles.
          $endgroup$
          – The Photon
          6 hours ago














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        5 Answers
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        5 Answers
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        active

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        active

        oldest

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        4












        $begingroup$

        It's not a trivial matter to define this question in such a way that it has a definite answer, and you certainly can't get a good answer within classical physics.




        Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




        Yes, this is a nice way approaching the issue. Now consider that classical electromagnetism is inherently a relativistic theory, so $E=mc^2$ applies. For a particle with mass $m$, charge $q$, and radius $r$, we would expect that the inertia $m$ of the particle can't be greater than $sim E/c^2$, where $E$ is the energy in the electric field. This results in $rgtrsim r_0=ke^2/mc^2$, where $r_0$ is called the classical electron radius, although it doesn't just apply to electrons.



        For an electron, $r_0$ is on the order of $10^{-15}$ meters. Particle physics experiments became good enough decades ago to search for internal structure in the electron at this scale, and it doesn't exist, in the sense that the electron cannot be a composite particle such as a proton at this scale. This would suggest that an electron is a point particle. However, classical electromagnetism becomes an inconsistent theory if you consider point particles with $rlesssim r_0$.



        You can try to get around this by modeling an electron as a rigid sphere or something, with some charge density, say a constant one. This was explored extensively ca. 1900, and it didn't work. When Einstein published the theory of special relativity, he clarified why this idea had been failing. It was failing because relativity doesn't allow rigid objects. (In such an object, the speed of sound would be infinite, but relativity doesn't allow signaling faster than $c$.)



        What this proves is that if we want to describe the charge and electric field of an electron at scales below $r_0$, we need some other theory of nature than classical E&M. That theory is quantum mechanics. In nonrigorous language, quantum mechanics describes the scene at this scale in terms of rapid, random quantum fluctuations, with particle-antiparticle pairs springing into existence and then reannihilating.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$




















          4












          $begingroup$

          It's not a trivial matter to define this question in such a way that it has a definite answer, and you certainly can't get a good answer within classical physics.




          Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




          Yes, this is a nice way approaching the issue. Now consider that classical electromagnetism is inherently a relativistic theory, so $E=mc^2$ applies. For a particle with mass $m$, charge $q$, and radius $r$, we would expect that the inertia $m$ of the particle can't be greater than $sim E/c^2$, where $E$ is the energy in the electric field. This results in $rgtrsim r_0=ke^2/mc^2$, where $r_0$ is called the classical electron radius, although it doesn't just apply to electrons.



          For an electron, $r_0$ is on the order of $10^{-15}$ meters. Particle physics experiments became good enough decades ago to search for internal structure in the electron at this scale, and it doesn't exist, in the sense that the electron cannot be a composite particle such as a proton at this scale. This would suggest that an electron is a point particle. However, classical electromagnetism becomes an inconsistent theory if you consider point particles with $rlesssim r_0$.



          You can try to get around this by modeling an electron as a rigid sphere or something, with some charge density, say a constant one. This was explored extensively ca. 1900, and it didn't work. When Einstein published the theory of special relativity, he clarified why this idea had been failing. It was failing because relativity doesn't allow rigid objects. (In such an object, the speed of sound would be infinite, but relativity doesn't allow signaling faster than $c$.)



          What this proves is that if we want to describe the charge and electric field of an electron at scales below $r_0$, we need some other theory of nature than classical E&M. That theory is quantum mechanics. In nonrigorous language, quantum mechanics describes the scene at this scale in terms of rapid, random quantum fluctuations, with particle-antiparticle pairs springing into existence and then reannihilating.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$


















            4












            4








            4





            $begingroup$

            It's not a trivial matter to define this question in such a way that it has a definite answer, and you certainly can't get a good answer within classical physics.




            Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




            Yes, this is a nice way approaching the issue. Now consider that classical electromagnetism is inherently a relativistic theory, so $E=mc^2$ applies. For a particle with mass $m$, charge $q$, and radius $r$, we would expect that the inertia $m$ of the particle can't be greater than $sim E/c^2$, where $E$ is the energy in the electric field. This results in $rgtrsim r_0=ke^2/mc^2$, where $r_0$ is called the classical electron radius, although it doesn't just apply to electrons.



            For an electron, $r_0$ is on the order of $10^{-15}$ meters. Particle physics experiments became good enough decades ago to search for internal structure in the electron at this scale, and it doesn't exist, in the sense that the electron cannot be a composite particle such as a proton at this scale. This would suggest that an electron is a point particle. However, classical electromagnetism becomes an inconsistent theory if you consider point particles with $rlesssim r_0$.



            You can try to get around this by modeling an electron as a rigid sphere or something, with some charge density, say a constant one. This was explored extensively ca. 1900, and it didn't work. When Einstein published the theory of special relativity, he clarified why this idea had been failing. It was failing because relativity doesn't allow rigid objects. (In such an object, the speed of sound would be infinite, but relativity doesn't allow signaling faster than $c$.)



            What this proves is that if we want to describe the charge and electric field of an electron at scales below $r_0$, we need some other theory of nature than classical E&M. That theory is quantum mechanics. In nonrigorous language, quantum mechanics describes the scene at this scale in terms of rapid, random quantum fluctuations, with particle-antiparticle pairs springing into existence and then reannihilating.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$



            It's not a trivial matter to define this question in such a way that it has a definite answer, and you certainly can't get a good answer within classical physics.




            Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




            Yes, this is a nice way approaching the issue. Now consider that classical electromagnetism is inherently a relativistic theory, so $E=mc^2$ applies. For a particle with mass $m$, charge $q$, and radius $r$, we would expect that the inertia $m$ of the particle can't be greater than $sim E/c^2$, where $E$ is the energy in the electric field. This results in $rgtrsim r_0=ke^2/mc^2$, where $r_0$ is called the classical electron radius, although it doesn't just apply to electrons.



            For an electron, $r_0$ is on the order of $10^{-15}$ meters. Particle physics experiments became good enough decades ago to search for internal structure in the electron at this scale, and it doesn't exist, in the sense that the electron cannot be a composite particle such as a proton at this scale. This would suggest that an electron is a point particle. However, classical electromagnetism becomes an inconsistent theory if you consider point particles with $rlesssim r_0$.



            You can try to get around this by modeling an electron as a rigid sphere or something, with some charge density, say a constant one. This was explored extensively ca. 1900, and it didn't work. When Einstein published the theory of special relativity, he clarified why this idea had been failing. It was failing because relativity doesn't allow rigid objects. (In such an object, the speed of sound would be infinite, but relativity doesn't allow signaling faster than $c$.)



            What this proves is that if we want to describe the charge and electric field of an electron at scales below $r_0$, we need some other theory of nature than classical E&M. That theory is quantum mechanics. In nonrigorous language, quantum mechanics describes the scene at this scale in terms of rapid, random quantum fluctuations, with particle-antiparticle pairs springing into existence and then reannihilating.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered 7 hours ago









            Ben CrowellBen Crowell

            58.7k6 gold badges174 silver badges335 bronze badges




            58.7k6 gold badges174 silver badges335 bronze badges




























                1












                $begingroup$

                It depends on scale.



                Electrons can usually be viewed as point-like when viewed on a scale much larger than an individual atom.



                But semiconductors often have on the order of $10^{12}- 10^{23}$ free electrons per ${rm cm^{3}}$, depending on temperature and doping. Copper, as an example of a metal, has about $10^{23}$ free electrons per $rm cm^3$.



                In these materials, if the volume you're considering is even a few $rm mu m^3$, the error produced by assuming the charge is smeared out instead of localized in thousands or trillions of points is very small.



                If you're studying some system with only a few charge carriers present, then you might need to consider the charge to be localized to make accurate predictions about it.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                • $begingroup$
                  But what is charge in reality?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Gariman Singh
                  9 hours ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @GarimanSingh, charge is a property of certain subatomic particles that causes them to attract and repel each other, and to produce electromagnetic waves. It doesn't exist on its own without those particles.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  For an EE answer, see What is a Charge?. For a more physics-y answer, search "what is charge" on this site.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  Nevertheless, electrons are considered point particles hence point charges.
                  $endgroup$
                  – my2cts
                  8 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  This answer seems a little off to me. It treats the question as if it were a question about condensed matter physics, whereas it seems clear to me that an appropriate answer is one involving the relevant particle physics. The OP is asking about properties of the electron itself, not anything specific to some form of matter such as semiconductors or copper.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Ben Crowell
                  7 hours ago
















                1












                $begingroup$

                It depends on scale.



                Electrons can usually be viewed as point-like when viewed on a scale much larger than an individual atom.



                But semiconductors often have on the order of $10^{12}- 10^{23}$ free electrons per ${rm cm^{3}}$, depending on temperature and doping. Copper, as an example of a metal, has about $10^{23}$ free electrons per $rm cm^3$.



                In these materials, if the volume you're considering is even a few $rm mu m^3$, the error produced by assuming the charge is smeared out instead of localized in thousands or trillions of points is very small.



                If you're studying some system with only a few charge carriers present, then you might need to consider the charge to be localized to make accurate predictions about it.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$















                • $begingroup$
                  But what is charge in reality?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Gariman Singh
                  9 hours ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @GarimanSingh, charge is a property of certain subatomic particles that causes them to attract and repel each other, and to produce electromagnetic waves. It doesn't exist on its own without those particles.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  For an EE answer, see What is a Charge?. For a more physics-y answer, search "what is charge" on this site.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  Nevertheless, electrons are considered point particles hence point charges.
                  $endgroup$
                  – my2cts
                  8 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  This answer seems a little off to me. It treats the question as if it were a question about condensed matter physics, whereas it seems clear to me that an appropriate answer is one involving the relevant particle physics. The OP is asking about properties of the electron itself, not anything specific to some form of matter such as semiconductors or copper.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Ben Crowell
                  7 hours ago














                1












                1








                1





                $begingroup$

                It depends on scale.



                Electrons can usually be viewed as point-like when viewed on a scale much larger than an individual atom.



                But semiconductors often have on the order of $10^{12}- 10^{23}$ free electrons per ${rm cm^{3}}$, depending on temperature and doping. Copper, as an example of a metal, has about $10^{23}$ free electrons per $rm cm^3$.



                In these materials, if the volume you're considering is even a few $rm mu m^3$, the error produced by assuming the charge is smeared out instead of localized in thousands or trillions of points is very small.



                If you're studying some system with only a few charge carriers present, then you might need to consider the charge to be localized to make accurate predictions about it.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$



                It depends on scale.



                Electrons can usually be viewed as point-like when viewed on a scale much larger than an individual atom.



                But semiconductors often have on the order of $10^{12}- 10^{23}$ free electrons per ${rm cm^{3}}$, depending on temperature and doping. Copper, as an example of a metal, has about $10^{23}$ free electrons per $rm cm^3$.



                In these materials, if the volume you're considering is even a few $rm mu m^3$, the error produced by assuming the charge is smeared out instead of localized in thousands or trillions of points is very small.



                If you're studying some system with only a few charge carriers present, then you might need to consider the charge to be localized to make accurate predictions about it.







                share|cite|improve this answer














                share|cite|improve this answer



                share|cite|improve this answer








                edited 9 hours ago

























                answered 9 hours ago









                The PhotonThe Photon

                11.1k1 gold badge20 silver badges36 bronze badges




                11.1k1 gold badge20 silver badges36 bronze badges















                • $begingroup$
                  But what is charge in reality?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Gariman Singh
                  9 hours ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @GarimanSingh, charge is a property of certain subatomic particles that causes them to attract and repel each other, and to produce electromagnetic waves. It doesn't exist on its own without those particles.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  For an EE answer, see What is a Charge?. For a more physics-y answer, search "what is charge" on this site.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  Nevertheless, electrons are considered point particles hence point charges.
                  $endgroup$
                  – my2cts
                  8 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  This answer seems a little off to me. It treats the question as if it were a question about condensed matter physics, whereas it seems clear to me that an appropriate answer is one involving the relevant particle physics. The OP is asking about properties of the electron itself, not anything specific to some form of matter such as semiconductors or copper.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Ben Crowell
                  7 hours ago


















                • $begingroup$
                  But what is charge in reality?
                  $endgroup$
                  – Gariman Singh
                  9 hours ago






                • 1




                  $begingroup$
                  @GarimanSingh, charge is a property of certain subatomic particles that causes them to attract and repel each other, and to produce electromagnetic waves. It doesn't exist on its own without those particles.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  For an EE answer, see What is a Charge?. For a more physics-y answer, search "what is charge" on this site.
                  $endgroup$
                  – The Photon
                  9 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  Nevertheless, electrons are considered point particles hence point charges.
                  $endgroup$
                  – my2cts
                  8 hours ago










                • $begingroup$
                  This answer seems a little off to me. It treats the question as if it were a question about condensed matter physics, whereas it seems clear to me that an appropriate answer is one involving the relevant particle physics. The OP is asking about properties of the electron itself, not anything specific to some form of matter such as semiconductors or copper.
                  $endgroup$
                  – Ben Crowell
                  7 hours ago
















                $begingroup$
                But what is charge in reality?
                $endgroup$
                – Gariman Singh
                9 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                But what is charge in reality?
                $endgroup$
                – Gariman Singh
                9 hours ago




                1




                1




                $begingroup$
                @GarimanSingh, charge is a property of certain subatomic particles that causes them to attract and repel each other, and to produce electromagnetic waves. It doesn't exist on its own without those particles.
                $endgroup$
                – The Photon
                9 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                @GarimanSingh, charge is a property of certain subatomic particles that causes them to attract and repel each other, and to produce electromagnetic waves. It doesn't exist on its own without those particles.
                $endgroup$
                – The Photon
                9 hours ago












                $begingroup$
                For an EE answer, see What is a Charge?. For a more physics-y answer, search "what is charge" on this site.
                $endgroup$
                – The Photon
                9 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                For an EE answer, see What is a Charge?. For a more physics-y answer, search "what is charge" on this site.
                $endgroup$
                – The Photon
                9 hours ago












                $begingroup$
                Nevertheless, electrons are considered point particles hence point charges.
                $endgroup$
                – my2cts
                8 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                Nevertheless, electrons are considered point particles hence point charges.
                $endgroup$
                – my2cts
                8 hours ago












                $begingroup$
                This answer seems a little off to me. It treats the question as if it were a question about condensed matter physics, whereas it seems clear to me that an appropriate answer is one involving the relevant particle physics. The OP is asking about properties of the electron itself, not anything specific to some form of matter such as semiconductors or copper.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Crowell
                7 hours ago




                $begingroup$
                This answer seems a little off to me. It treats the question as if it were a question about condensed matter physics, whereas it seems clear to me that an appropriate answer is one involving the relevant particle physics. The OP is asking about properties of the electron itself, not anything specific to some form of matter such as semiconductors or copper.
                $endgroup$
                – Ben Crowell
                7 hours ago











                1












                $begingroup$


                But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.




                Actually differential Gauss' law is valid even for point charges. For point charge $q$ at point $mathbf x_0$, instead of charge density, we use charge distribution $rho(mathbf x) = qdelta(mathbf x-mathbf x_0)$.




                Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




                That problem is a separate question. There are consistent theories both for point and extended charges with finite energy in both cases. Neither kind of theory can supply us with hint on whether real particles are points or extended bodies. This must be investigated by experiments.




                So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?




                For electrons, we don't know; all experiments are consistent with point particle, but it can be extended body of small enough size. The current decades old limit on electron size is somewhere near 1e-18 m.



                For protons, based on scattering experiments and their understanding in terms of quantum theory of scattering, these are believed to have non-zero size (of charge distribution) around 1e-15 m.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$




















                  1












                  $begingroup$


                  But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.




                  Actually differential Gauss' law is valid even for point charges. For point charge $q$ at point $mathbf x_0$, instead of charge density, we use charge distribution $rho(mathbf x) = qdelta(mathbf x-mathbf x_0)$.




                  Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




                  That problem is a separate question. There are consistent theories both for point and extended charges with finite energy in both cases. Neither kind of theory can supply us with hint on whether real particles are points or extended bodies. This must be investigated by experiments.




                  So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?




                  For electrons, we don't know; all experiments are consistent with point particle, but it can be extended body of small enough size. The current decades old limit on electron size is somewhere near 1e-18 m.



                  For protons, based on scattering experiments and their understanding in terms of quantum theory of scattering, these are believed to have non-zero size (of charge distribution) around 1e-15 m.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$


















                    1












                    1








                    1





                    $begingroup$


                    But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.




                    Actually differential Gauss' law is valid even for point charges. For point charge $q$ at point $mathbf x_0$, instead of charge density, we use charge distribution $rho(mathbf x) = qdelta(mathbf x-mathbf x_0)$.




                    Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




                    That problem is a separate question. There are consistent theories both for point and extended charges with finite energy in both cases. Neither kind of theory can supply us with hint on whether real particles are points or extended bodies. This must be investigated by experiments.




                    So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?




                    For electrons, we don't know; all experiments are consistent with point particle, but it can be extended body of small enough size. The current decades old limit on electron size is somewhere near 1e-18 m.



                    For protons, based on scattering experiments and their understanding in terms of quantum theory of scattering, these are believed to have non-zero size (of charge distribution) around 1e-15 m.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$




                    But the differential form of Gauss' Law talks about charge densities, a thing possible only if charges are smeared out in space.




                    Actually differential Gauss' law is valid even for point charges. For point charge $q$ at point $mathbf x_0$, instead of charge density, we use charge distribution $rho(mathbf x) = qdelta(mathbf x-mathbf x_0)$.




                    Even Feynman addresses to the problem in his lectures when he says that on solving for the electrostatic energy in the field of a point charge we get infinity as the limit.




                    That problem is a separate question. There are consistent theories both for point and extended charges with finite energy in both cases. Neither kind of theory can supply us with hint on whether real particles are points or extended bodies. This must be investigated by experiments.




                    So do we know now that whether charges are point-like or smeared out?




                    For electrons, we don't know; all experiments are consistent with point particle, but it can be extended body of small enough size. The current decades old limit on electron size is somewhere near 1e-18 m.



                    For protons, based on scattering experiments and their understanding in terms of quantum theory of scattering, these are believed to have non-zero size (of charge distribution) around 1e-15 m.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered 5 hours ago









                    Ján LalinskýJán Lalinský

                    18.2k15 silver badges44 bronze badges




                    18.2k15 silver badges44 bronze badges


























                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        Just like particle-wave dual nature, due to which one may perceive particles as waves thus not centered at a point but rather dispersed through space (and vice versa for waves being particle like), the charges may be perceived either like they are centered at some particular points, or smeared through space.



                        Hence, when talking about the Electrostatic Potential energy, one may think of it as associated with particles, or associated with the field, thus smoothly distributed through space (we mostly consider the latter in Capacitors). Either one is correct.






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$




















                          0












                          $begingroup$

                          Just like particle-wave dual nature, due to which one may perceive particles as waves thus not centered at a point but rather dispersed through space (and vice versa for waves being particle like), the charges may be perceived either like they are centered at some particular points, or smeared through space.



                          Hence, when talking about the Electrostatic Potential energy, one may think of it as associated with particles, or associated with the field, thus smoothly distributed through space (we mostly consider the latter in Capacitors). Either one is correct.






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$


















                            0












                            0








                            0





                            $begingroup$

                            Just like particle-wave dual nature, due to which one may perceive particles as waves thus not centered at a point but rather dispersed through space (and vice versa for waves being particle like), the charges may be perceived either like they are centered at some particular points, or smeared through space.



                            Hence, when talking about the Electrostatic Potential energy, one may think of it as associated with particles, or associated with the field, thus smoothly distributed through space (we mostly consider the latter in Capacitors). Either one is correct.






                            share|cite|improve this answer









                            $endgroup$



                            Just like particle-wave dual nature, due to which one may perceive particles as waves thus not centered at a point but rather dispersed through space (and vice versa for waves being particle like), the charges may be perceived either like they are centered at some particular points, or smeared through space.



                            Hence, when talking about the Electrostatic Potential energy, one may think of it as associated with particles, or associated with the field, thus smoothly distributed through space (we mostly consider the latter in Capacitors). Either one is correct.







                            share|cite|improve this answer












                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer










                            answered 9 hours ago









                            Hack MasterHack Master

                            866 bronze badges




                            866 bronze badges


























                                -1












                                $begingroup$

                                Electrons are considered point charges. Protons have a radius somewhat smaller than a femtometer. There is a controversy over the precise value of the proton radius, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_radius_puzzle. So a proton can be considered a smear, albeit a very tiny one.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$











                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  Viewed on the scale of an individual atom, or in an electron gas, they're not well modeled as point particles.
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – The Photon
                                  6 hours ago
















                                -1












                                $begingroup$

                                Electrons are considered point charges. Protons have a radius somewhat smaller than a femtometer. There is a controversy over the precise value of the proton radius, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_radius_puzzle. So a proton can be considered a smear, albeit a very tiny one.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$











                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  Viewed on the scale of an individual atom, or in an electron gas, they're not well modeled as point particles.
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – The Photon
                                  6 hours ago














                                -1












                                -1








                                -1





                                $begingroup$

                                Electrons are considered point charges. Protons have a radius somewhat smaller than a femtometer. There is a controversy over the precise value of the proton radius, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_radius_puzzle. So a proton can be considered a smear, albeit a very tiny one.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$



                                Electrons are considered point charges. Protons have a radius somewhat smaller than a femtometer. There is a controversy over the precise value of the proton radius, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_radius_puzzle. So a proton can be considered a smear, albeit a very tiny one.







                                share|cite|improve this answer












                                share|cite|improve this answer



                                share|cite|improve this answer










                                answered 8 hours ago









                                my2ctsmy2cts

                                7,6382 gold badges7 silver badges23 bronze badges




                                7,6382 gold badges7 silver badges23 bronze badges











                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  Viewed on the scale of an individual atom, or in an electron gas, they're not well modeled as point particles.
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – The Photon
                                  6 hours ago














                                • 1




                                  $begingroup$
                                  Viewed on the scale of an individual atom, or in an electron gas, they're not well modeled as point particles.
                                  $endgroup$
                                  – The Photon
                                  6 hours ago








                                1




                                1




                                $begingroup$
                                Viewed on the scale of an individual atom, or in an electron gas, they're not well modeled as point particles.
                                $endgroup$
                                – The Photon
                                6 hours ago




                                $begingroup$
                                Viewed on the scale of an individual atom, or in an electron gas, they're not well modeled as point particles.
                                $endgroup$
                                – The Photon
                                6 hours ago


















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