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Why do proponents of guns oppose gun competency tests?
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Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.
But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?
One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.
So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?
Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?
guns
New contributor
add a comment |
Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.
But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?
One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.
So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?
Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?
guns
New contributor
1
Because the folks who are "proponents of guns", rather than responsible gun owners, lack competency with their firearms.
– R..
4 hours ago
2
It would help if you can cite (link to) some of these arguments so that we can evaluate whether safety truly is the primary factor in those arguments, as opposed to a secondary argument.
– Curt J. Sampson
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.
But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?
One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.
So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?
Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?
guns
New contributor
Many people on the right who are in favor of the right to own guns do so based on reasons such as safety. For example, in the wake of pretty much any mass shooting, you will have people come out and say that the solution is to equip even more people with guns so that they can intervene and take out the shooter in such situations. Other examples include simple home security against robbers and what not.
But these same people also tend to oppose gun control policies such as competency tests and strict licensing prior to the acquiral of a gun. How is the co-existence of these two sentiments justified?
One would think that if the usage of guns is purely a matter of safety, then competency in using those guns would be a high priority. After all, if we want to equip people with guns to protect us from robbers or deranged shooters, we would want to ensure that they are as competent in using those guns as possible. And if a person can't pass a competency or licensing requirement, then perhaps they shouldn't own one.
So, what arguments are offered by these people to justify opposing gun competency tests?
Note that I am well aware that many people oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern. Rather, they just really like guns, and competency tests is a possible barrier that could prevent them from getting more of them, so they oppose it. My question is not about these people, I am speaking solely of people that concede that safety is their primary concern yet they still oppose competency tests. What arguments do they use to justify such a position?
guns
guns
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asked 13 hours ago
abudlabudl
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1
Because the folks who are "proponents of guns", rather than responsible gun owners, lack competency with their firearms.
– R..
4 hours ago
2
It would help if you can cite (link to) some of these arguments so that we can evaluate whether safety truly is the primary factor in those arguments, as opposed to a secondary argument.
– Curt J. Sampson
2 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Because the folks who are "proponents of guns", rather than responsible gun owners, lack competency with their firearms.
– R..
4 hours ago
2
It would help if you can cite (link to) some of these arguments so that we can evaluate whether safety truly is the primary factor in those arguments, as opposed to a secondary argument.
– Curt J. Sampson
2 hours ago
1
1
Because the folks who are "proponents of guns", rather than responsible gun owners, lack competency with their firearms.
– R..
4 hours ago
Because the folks who are "proponents of guns", rather than responsible gun owners, lack competency with their firearms.
– R..
4 hours ago
2
2
It would help if you can cite (link to) some of these arguments so that we can evaluate whether safety truly is the primary factor in those arguments, as opposed to a secondary argument.
– Curt J. Sampson
2 hours ago
It would help if you can cite (link to) some of these arguments so that we can evaluate whether safety truly is the primary factor in those arguments, as opposed to a secondary argument.
– Curt J. Sampson
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.
Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters
An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.
Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.
Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.
Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.
3
Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
5
The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?
– DariM
7 hours ago
4
The belief that any form of tests and licensing violates the Constitution is based on serious cherry-picking. The exact wording of the 2nd Amendment is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". One can certainly argue that the words "well-regulated" imply that competency tests do not infringe on the rights.
– IMil
4 hours ago
2
While I entirely disagree with the "slippery-slope" logic of the argument, I do think this answer accurately reflects the reasoning such people use.
– V2Blast
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?
(And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)
1
@o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
1
What is a qualified adult? Does that involve a test or outside judgement? And what about a gun safe? Who determines what a gun safe is? The government? It seems that any control will somehow involve the government because they have the power to make and enforce laws.
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@o.m. I don't think you'd want that, my state is a lot stricter. ;) From Steemit "If you want to apply for a gun, you need to have a perfectly clean track record. Any history of felonies, mental illness or addictions will get your submission turned down. Once you do have your license, your name and status will be submitted into the law enforcement agency, so the government keeps track of all who own guns, and annual checks by police to see if you are still allowed to own firearms may apply."
– JJJ
9 hours ago
7
You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.
– Obie 2.0
8 hours ago
1
@Obie2.0 That is true just so long as it is true. Since we dont currently have competency tests for gun ownership we cant know if they would be administered fairly or not. Who says voting tests couldnt be fair just because they werent in the past?
– Matt
2 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
It's one of three situations, from most to least likely:
- Despite safety ostensibly being the primary concern, it's not.
- They're not well justified arguments.
- They're arguments based on particular forms of manditory competency training or certification that are ineffective.
For the first, even when not explicitly stated, many arguments about using particular techniques to help improve firearm safety implicitly rest on constraints from other assumptions about the regulation of ownership. In the U.S., most freqently this is that owning firearms is a right that cannot be greatly restricted. (Whether you believe this is a greater good or merely a situation that cannot easily be changed is irrelevant to this particular argument.) Thus any gun control policies (involving training requirements or otherwise) that would be seen to overly restrict this right cannot be implemented. Note the proponents of such argument may be very much in favour of training, and object only to it being mandatory for gun ownership.
It would help if you could provide examples of the arguments you're talking about, so we could indeed verify that these arguments don't "oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern."
For the second, while it would seem clear that better trained and more competent firearm owners would increase safety, there has been resistance to studying this in the U.S.. This could be used to argue that we don't have good data about the effectiveness of training (or many other things), and thus shouldn't make it a requirement until we do. This doesn't appear to me to be justified given the studies that have been done, inside and outside the U.S., however.
Third, there are plenty of what even firearms advocates agree are very poor mandatory training courses for concealed carry. There's an argument to be made that these are really no more useful than no training at all and thus are not worth the burden they place on the applicant.
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
3
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In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.
Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters
An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.
Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.
Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.
Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.
3
Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
5
The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?
– DariM
7 hours ago
4
The belief that any form of tests and licensing violates the Constitution is based on serious cherry-picking. The exact wording of the 2nd Amendment is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". One can certainly argue that the words "well-regulated" imply that competency tests do not infringe on the rights.
– IMil
4 hours ago
2
While I entirely disagree with the "slippery-slope" logic of the argument, I do think this answer accurately reflects the reasoning such people use.
– V2Blast
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.
Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters
An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.
Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.
Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.
Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.
3
Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
5
The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?
– DariM
7 hours ago
4
The belief that any form of tests and licensing violates the Constitution is based on serious cherry-picking. The exact wording of the 2nd Amendment is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". One can certainly argue that the words "well-regulated" imply that competency tests do not infringe on the rights.
– IMil
4 hours ago
2
While I entirely disagree with the "slippery-slope" logic of the argument, I do think this answer accurately reflects the reasoning such people use.
– V2Blast
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.
Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters
An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.
Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.
Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.
Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.
In America gun ownership is a right set out in the constitution. Now pause for a moment and consider how you might feel if something you consider to be a right was going to have competency requirements e.g. the vote or water.
Going beyond the mindset and considering more practical matters
An amount of competency required to ensure the a person could use a gun safely to protect themselves or others (and not put others in more danger) would be hard for most people to achieve. This would require discipline and skill. Thus, tests would likely be hard for most to pass meaning them losing the right.
Competency requirement require someone to set out rules determining who is 'competent' and someone to assess people against those rules. In other words someone to assess if you are fit to be entitled to something that is supposed to be a right. These people have control over who can and can't own/bear arms. There has been a history of such assessors using questionable criteria to exclude particular people.
Tests require administration from the state/government. The right to bear arms is partly to protect personal liberty from the government/state.
Given the above it is highly possible that such requirements would pave the way for strict gun controls and even the banning of bearing/owning arms. Compulsory licencing would make this much easier to implement. The UK went down a similar path of licencing arms then removing a large amount of them.
answered 10 hours ago
Steve SmithSteve Smith
2,4253 silver badges18 bronze badges
2,4253 silver badges18 bronze badges
3
Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
5
The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?
– DariM
7 hours ago
4
The belief that any form of tests and licensing violates the Constitution is based on serious cherry-picking. The exact wording of the 2nd Amendment is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". One can certainly argue that the words "well-regulated" imply that competency tests do not infringe on the rights.
– IMil
4 hours ago
2
While I entirely disagree with the "slippery-slope" logic of the argument, I do think this answer accurately reflects the reasoning such people use.
– V2Blast
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
3
Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
5
The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?
– DariM
7 hours ago
4
The belief that any form of tests and licensing violates the Constitution is based on serious cherry-picking. The exact wording of the 2nd Amendment is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". One can certainly argue that the words "well-regulated" imply that competency tests do not infringe on the rights.
– IMil
4 hours ago
2
While I entirely disagree with the "slippery-slope" logic of the argument, I do think this answer accurately reflects the reasoning such people use.
– V2Blast
1 hour ago
3
3
Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?
– JJJ
10 hours ago
Doesn't gun ownership already have many strings attached, at least in some states?
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
1
@jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
@jjj it does however, these are restricted by the constitution and thus can't be as tight as some feel they should be.
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
5
5
The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?
– DariM
7 hours ago
The other thing to consider of course is that many rights DO have restrictions, and are considered constitutional in that regard. Abortion is an easy one that comes to mind - especially given that there is some surface overlap between the demographic that believes in gun rights, and also believes abortion should be restricted. Whether a test would be "hard" or "require discipline and skill" isn't the same as it being unconstitutional, or if we extrapolate from PP vs Casey applied to gun control, would it be considered an "undue burden" for guns, given what states have implemented for abortion?
– DariM
7 hours ago
4
4
The belief that any form of tests and licensing violates the Constitution is based on serious cherry-picking. The exact wording of the 2nd Amendment is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". One can certainly argue that the words "well-regulated" imply that competency tests do not infringe on the rights.
– IMil
4 hours ago
The belief that any form of tests and licensing violates the Constitution is based on serious cherry-picking. The exact wording of the 2nd Amendment is: "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed". One can certainly argue that the words "well-regulated" imply that competency tests do not infringe on the rights.
– IMil
4 hours ago
2
2
While I entirely disagree with the "slippery-slope" logic of the argument, I do think this answer accurately reflects the reasoning such people use.
– V2Blast
1 hour ago
While I entirely disagree with the "slippery-slope" logic of the argument, I do think this answer accurately reflects the reasoning such people use.
– V2Blast
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?
(And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)
1
@o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
1
What is a qualified adult? Does that involve a test or outside judgement? And what about a gun safe? Who determines what a gun safe is? The government? It seems that any control will somehow involve the government because they have the power to make and enforce laws.
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@o.m. I don't think you'd want that, my state is a lot stricter. ;) From Steemit "If you want to apply for a gun, you need to have a perfectly clean track record. Any history of felonies, mental illness or addictions will get your submission turned down. Once you do have your license, your name and status will be submitted into the law enforcement agency, so the government keeps track of all who own guns, and annual checks by police to see if you are still allowed to own firearms may apply."
– JJJ
9 hours ago
7
You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.
– Obie 2.0
8 hours ago
1
@Obie2.0 That is true just so long as it is true. Since we dont currently have competency tests for gun ownership we cant know if they would be administered fairly or not. Who says voting tests couldnt be fair just because they werent in the past?
– Matt
2 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?
(And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)
1
@o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
1
What is a qualified adult? Does that involve a test or outside judgement? And what about a gun safe? Who determines what a gun safe is? The government? It seems that any control will somehow involve the government because they have the power to make and enforce laws.
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@o.m. I don't think you'd want that, my state is a lot stricter. ;) From Steemit "If you want to apply for a gun, you need to have a perfectly clean track record. Any history of felonies, mental illness or addictions will get your submission turned down. Once you do have your license, your name and status will be submitted into the law enforcement agency, so the government keeps track of all who own guns, and annual checks by police to see if you are still allowed to own firearms may apply."
– JJJ
9 hours ago
7
You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.
– Obie 2.0
8 hours ago
1
@Obie2.0 That is true just so long as it is true. Since we dont currently have competency tests for gun ownership we cant know if they would be administered fairly or not. Who says voting tests couldnt be fair just because they werent in the past?
– Matt
2 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?
(And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)
Whenever there is a test, there is someone who will administer the test. And there is a long history of abuse of such tests, e.g. literacy tests to restrict the franchise. How do you stop Jim Crow from saying "you failed" because he doesn't like your skin color?
(And if you ask me, the first step shouldn't be a test, it should be the requirement to own and use a gun safe unless the weapon is under the physical control of a qualified adult.)
answered 11 hours ago
o.m.o.m.
18.1k3 gold badges43 silver badges64 bronze badges
18.1k3 gold badges43 silver badges64 bronze badges
1
@o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
1
What is a qualified adult? Does that involve a test or outside judgement? And what about a gun safe? Who determines what a gun safe is? The government? It seems that any control will somehow involve the government because they have the power to make and enforce laws.
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@o.m. I don't think you'd want that, my state is a lot stricter. ;) From Steemit "If you want to apply for a gun, you need to have a perfectly clean track record. Any history of felonies, mental illness or addictions will get your submission turned down. Once you do have your license, your name and status will be submitted into the law enforcement agency, so the government keeps track of all who own guns, and annual checks by police to see if you are still allowed to own firearms may apply."
– JJJ
9 hours ago
7
You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.
– Obie 2.0
8 hours ago
1
@Obie2.0 That is true just so long as it is true. Since we dont currently have competency tests for gun ownership we cant know if they would be administered fairly or not. Who says voting tests couldnt be fair just because they werent in the past?
– Matt
2 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
1
@o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
1
What is a qualified adult? Does that involve a test or outside judgement? And what about a gun safe? Who determines what a gun safe is? The government? It seems that any control will somehow involve the government because they have the power to make and enforce laws.
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
@o.m. I don't think you'd want that, my state is a lot stricter. ;) From Steemit "If you want to apply for a gun, you need to have a perfectly clean track record. Any history of felonies, mental illness or addictions will get your submission turned down. Once you do have your license, your name and status will be submitted into the law enforcement agency, so the government keeps track of all who own guns, and annual checks by police to see if you are still allowed to own firearms may apply."
– JJJ
9 hours ago
7
You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.
– Obie 2.0
8 hours ago
1
@Obie2.0 That is true just so long as it is true. Since we dont currently have competency tests for gun ownership we cant know if they would be administered fairly or not. Who says voting tests couldnt be fair just because they werent in the past?
– Matt
2 hours ago
1
1
@o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
@o.m. the UK has done this rather successfully with most guns and i don't think there are many people claiming it is a police state. There are some exceptions but most guns are banned and the rest require a licence
– Steve Smith
10 hours ago
1
1
What is a qualified adult? Does that involve a test or outside judgement? And what about a gun safe? Who determines what a gun safe is? The government? It seems that any control will somehow involve the government because they have the power to make and enforce laws.
– JJJ
10 hours ago
What is a qualified adult? Does that involve a test or outside judgement? And what about a gun safe? Who determines what a gun safe is? The government? It seems that any control will somehow involve the government because they have the power to make and enforce laws.
– JJJ
10 hours ago
1
1
@o.m. I don't think you'd want that, my state is a lot stricter. ;) From Steemit "If you want to apply for a gun, you need to have a perfectly clean track record. Any history of felonies, mental illness or addictions will get your submission turned down. Once you do have your license, your name and status will be submitted into the law enforcement agency, so the government keeps track of all who own guns, and annual checks by police to see if you are still allowed to own firearms may apply."
– JJJ
9 hours ago
@o.m. I don't think you'd want that, my state is a lot stricter. ;) From Steemit "If you want to apply for a gun, you need to have a perfectly clean track record. Any history of felonies, mental illness or addictions will get your submission turned down. Once you do have your license, your name and status will be submitted into the law enforcement agency, so the government keeps track of all who own guns, and annual checks by police to see if you are still allowed to own firearms may apply."
– JJJ
9 hours ago
7
7
You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.
– Obie 2.0
8 hours ago
You could say the same about driver's tests. Clearly some tests of competency are capable of being administered relatively fairly. Insofar as they are both concrete tests of the ability involved in operating dangerous machinery, driver's tests and gun licensing tests have more in common with each other than with voting tests designed to exclude voters of color.
– Obie 2.0
8 hours ago
1
1
@Obie2.0 That is true just so long as it is true. Since we dont currently have competency tests for gun ownership we cant know if they would be administered fairly or not. Who says voting tests couldnt be fair just because they werent in the past?
– Matt
2 hours ago
@Obie2.0 That is true just so long as it is true. Since we dont currently have competency tests for gun ownership we cant know if they would be administered fairly or not. Who says voting tests couldnt be fair just because they werent in the past?
– Matt
2 hours ago
|
show 9 more comments
It's one of three situations, from most to least likely:
- Despite safety ostensibly being the primary concern, it's not.
- They're not well justified arguments.
- They're arguments based on particular forms of manditory competency training or certification that are ineffective.
For the first, even when not explicitly stated, many arguments about using particular techniques to help improve firearm safety implicitly rest on constraints from other assumptions about the regulation of ownership. In the U.S., most freqently this is that owning firearms is a right that cannot be greatly restricted. (Whether you believe this is a greater good or merely a situation that cannot easily be changed is irrelevant to this particular argument.) Thus any gun control policies (involving training requirements or otherwise) that would be seen to overly restrict this right cannot be implemented. Note the proponents of such argument may be very much in favour of training, and object only to it being mandatory for gun ownership.
It would help if you could provide examples of the arguments you're talking about, so we could indeed verify that these arguments don't "oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern."
For the second, while it would seem clear that better trained and more competent firearm owners would increase safety, there has been resistance to studying this in the U.S.. This could be used to argue that we don't have good data about the effectiveness of training (or many other things), and thus shouldn't make it a requirement until we do. This doesn't appear to me to be justified given the studies that have been done, inside and outside the U.S., however.
Third, there are plenty of what even firearms advocates agree are very poor mandatory training courses for concealed carry. There's an argument to be made that these are really no more useful than no training at all and thus are not worth the burden they place on the applicant.
New contributor
add a comment |
It's one of three situations, from most to least likely:
- Despite safety ostensibly being the primary concern, it's not.
- They're not well justified arguments.
- They're arguments based on particular forms of manditory competency training or certification that are ineffective.
For the first, even when not explicitly stated, many arguments about using particular techniques to help improve firearm safety implicitly rest on constraints from other assumptions about the regulation of ownership. In the U.S., most freqently this is that owning firearms is a right that cannot be greatly restricted. (Whether you believe this is a greater good or merely a situation that cannot easily be changed is irrelevant to this particular argument.) Thus any gun control policies (involving training requirements or otherwise) that would be seen to overly restrict this right cannot be implemented. Note the proponents of such argument may be very much in favour of training, and object only to it being mandatory for gun ownership.
It would help if you could provide examples of the arguments you're talking about, so we could indeed verify that these arguments don't "oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern."
For the second, while it would seem clear that better trained and more competent firearm owners would increase safety, there has been resistance to studying this in the U.S.. This could be used to argue that we don't have good data about the effectiveness of training (or many other things), and thus shouldn't make it a requirement until we do. This doesn't appear to me to be justified given the studies that have been done, inside and outside the U.S., however.
Third, there are plenty of what even firearms advocates agree are very poor mandatory training courses for concealed carry. There's an argument to be made that these are really no more useful than no training at all and thus are not worth the burden they place on the applicant.
New contributor
add a comment |
It's one of three situations, from most to least likely:
- Despite safety ostensibly being the primary concern, it's not.
- They're not well justified arguments.
- They're arguments based on particular forms of manditory competency training or certification that are ineffective.
For the first, even when not explicitly stated, many arguments about using particular techniques to help improve firearm safety implicitly rest on constraints from other assumptions about the regulation of ownership. In the U.S., most freqently this is that owning firearms is a right that cannot be greatly restricted. (Whether you believe this is a greater good or merely a situation that cannot easily be changed is irrelevant to this particular argument.) Thus any gun control policies (involving training requirements or otherwise) that would be seen to overly restrict this right cannot be implemented. Note the proponents of such argument may be very much in favour of training, and object only to it being mandatory for gun ownership.
It would help if you could provide examples of the arguments you're talking about, so we could indeed verify that these arguments don't "oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern."
For the second, while it would seem clear that better trained and more competent firearm owners would increase safety, there has been resistance to studying this in the U.S.. This could be used to argue that we don't have good data about the effectiveness of training (or many other things), and thus shouldn't make it a requirement until we do. This doesn't appear to me to be justified given the studies that have been done, inside and outside the U.S., however.
Third, there are plenty of what even firearms advocates agree are very poor mandatory training courses for concealed carry. There's an argument to be made that these are really no more useful than no training at all and thus are not worth the burden they place on the applicant.
New contributor
It's one of three situations, from most to least likely:
- Despite safety ostensibly being the primary concern, it's not.
- They're not well justified arguments.
- They're arguments based on particular forms of manditory competency training or certification that are ineffective.
For the first, even when not explicitly stated, many arguments about using particular techniques to help improve firearm safety implicitly rest on constraints from other assumptions about the regulation of ownership. In the U.S., most freqently this is that owning firearms is a right that cannot be greatly restricted. (Whether you believe this is a greater good or merely a situation that cannot easily be changed is irrelevant to this particular argument.) Thus any gun control policies (involving training requirements or otherwise) that would be seen to overly restrict this right cannot be implemented. Note the proponents of such argument may be very much in favour of training, and object only to it being mandatory for gun ownership.
It would help if you could provide examples of the arguments you're talking about, so we could indeed verify that these arguments don't "oppose competency tests because safety is not their primary concern."
For the second, while it would seem clear that better trained and more competent firearm owners would increase safety, there has been resistance to studying this in the U.S.. This could be used to argue that we don't have good data about the effectiveness of training (or many other things), and thus shouldn't make it a requirement until we do. This doesn't appear to me to be justified given the studies that have been done, inside and outside the U.S., however.
Third, there are plenty of what even firearms advocates agree are very poor mandatory training courses for concealed carry. There's an argument to be made that these are really no more useful than no training at all and thus are not worth the burden they place on the applicant.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 1 hour ago
Curt J. SampsonCurt J. Sampson
1313 bronze badges
1313 bronze badges
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
Because the folks who are "proponents of guns", rather than responsible gun owners, lack competency with their firearms.
– R..
4 hours ago
2
It would help if you can cite (link to) some of these arguments so that we can evaluate whether safety truly is the primary factor in those arguments, as opposed to a secondary argument.
– Curt J. Sampson
2 hours ago