If people's daily habits are reliable then why is the stock market so unpredictable?Idea for getting rich...
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If people's daily habits are reliable then why is the stock market so unpredictable?
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Why is the stock market so unpredictable? If you think about it, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. Waking up, deciding what sites to browse, etc. So if we have a good model about how people behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
stocks stock-analysis
New contributor
|
show 8 more comments
Why is the stock market so unpredictable? If you think about it, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. Waking up, deciding what sites to browse, etc. So if we have a good model about how people behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
stocks stock-analysis
New contributor
11
You seem to think that if people are predictable, then the sum of their actions with regards to the stock market should also result in something predictable. However, when a lot of independent agents interact, the sum total of their actions often display a great deal of randomness, even if each agent by itself is completely predictable. "Complex adaptive systems" is a name you can use to learn more about this. Check out Rule 30 for an example of a very simple system with behavior so random that it can be used as a random number generator.
– C. E.
yesterday
7
You are forgetting that everyone is trying to predict the market. This affects the market. And, it makes it "unpredictable". Unpredictable in quotes because just taking the performance of the market yesterday and applying that as a predictor for current day is fairly precise. So in that regards, it is about as predictable as the weather. But all the people betting on the market is affecting the market. And that is a feedback loop designed to create chaos out of order in any process, let alone one that is fairly unstable to begin with.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
2
You know there are people who get entire PHD's trying to answer this question right? And you want it answered here in a few paragraphs?
– Issel
yesterday
7
@C.E. Actually, usually the opposite is true: Random differences in individual behavior cancel each other out when aggregated over many individuals so that predictability improves. You have some reasoning to do involving feedback loops and non-linearity of the complex system to explain why this is not the case here.
– Peter A. Schneider
14 hours ago
1
All of the predictable parts are already subtracted from the price.
– not_a_comcast_employee
12 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
Why is the stock market so unpredictable? If you think about it, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. Waking up, deciding what sites to browse, etc. So if we have a good model about how people behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
stocks stock-analysis
New contributor
Why is the stock market so unpredictable? If you think about it, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. Waking up, deciding what sites to browse, etc. So if we have a good model about how people behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
stocks stock-analysis
stocks stock-analysis
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New contributor
edited 2 hours ago
curiousdannii
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11
You seem to think that if people are predictable, then the sum of their actions with regards to the stock market should also result in something predictable. However, when a lot of independent agents interact, the sum total of their actions often display a great deal of randomness, even if each agent by itself is completely predictable. "Complex adaptive systems" is a name you can use to learn more about this. Check out Rule 30 for an example of a very simple system with behavior so random that it can be used as a random number generator.
– C. E.
yesterday
7
You are forgetting that everyone is trying to predict the market. This affects the market. And, it makes it "unpredictable". Unpredictable in quotes because just taking the performance of the market yesterday and applying that as a predictor for current day is fairly precise. So in that regards, it is about as predictable as the weather. But all the people betting on the market is affecting the market. And that is a feedback loop designed to create chaos out of order in any process, let alone one that is fairly unstable to begin with.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
2
You know there are people who get entire PHD's trying to answer this question right? And you want it answered here in a few paragraphs?
– Issel
yesterday
7
@C.E. Actually, usually the opposite is true: Random differences in individual behavior cancel each other out when aggregated over many individuals so that predictability improves. You have some reasoning to do involving feedback loops and non-linearity of the complex system to explain why this is not the case here.
– Peter A. Schneider
14 hours ago
1
All of the predictable parts are already subtracted from the price.
– not_a_comcast_employee
12 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
11
You seem to think that if people are predictable, then the sum of their actions with regards to the stock market should also result in something predictable. However, when a lot of independent agents interact, the sum total of their actions often display a great deal of randomness, even if each agent by itself is completely predictable. "Complex adaptive systems" is a name you can use to learn more about this. Check out Rule 30 for an example of a very simple system with behavior so random that it can be used as a random number generator.
– C. E.
yesterday
7
You are forgetting that everyone is trying to predict the market. This affects the market. And, it makes it "unpredictable". Unpredictable in quotes because just taking the performance of the market yesterday and applying that as a predictor for current day is fairly precise. So in that regards, it is about as predictable as the weather. But all the people betting on the market is affecting the market. And that is a feedback loop designed to create chaos out of order in any process, let alone one that is fairly unstable to begin with.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
2
You know there are people who get entire PHD's trying to answer this question right? And you want it answered here in a few paragraphs?
– Issel
yesterday
7
@C.E. Actually, usually the opposite is true: Random differences in individual behavior cancel each other out when aggregated over many individuals so that predictability improves. You have some reasoning to do involving feedback loops and non-linearity of the complex system to explain why this is not the case here.
– Peter A. Schneider
14 hours ago
1
All of the predictable parts are already subtracted from the price.
– not_a_comcast_employee
12 hours ago
11
11
You seem to think that if people are predictable, then the sum of their actions with regards to the stock market should also result in something predictable. However, when a lot of independent agents interact, the sum total of their actions often display a great deal of randomness, even if each agent by itself is completely predictable. "Complex adaptive systems" is a name you can use to learn more about this. Check out Rule 30 for an example of a very simple system with behavior so random that it can be used as a random number generator.
– C. E.
yesterday
You seem to think that if people are predictable, then the sum of their actions with regards to the stock market should also result in something predictable. However, when a lot of independent agents interact, the sum total of their actions often display a great deal of randomness, even if each agent by itself is completely predictable. "Complex adaptive systems" is a name you can use to learn more about this. Check out Rule 30 for an example of a very simple system with behavior so random that it can be used as a random number generator.
– C. E.
yesterday
7
7
You are forgetting that everyone is trying to predict the market. This affects the market. And, it makes it "unpredictable". Unpredictable in quotes because just taking the performance of the market yesterday and applying that as a predictor for current day is fairly precise. So in that regards, it is about as predictable as the weather. But all the people betting on the market is affecting the market. And that is a feedback loop designed to create chaos out of order in any process, let alone one that is fairly unstable to begin with.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
You are forgetting that everyone is trying to predict the market. This affects the market. And, it makes it "unpredictable". Unpredictable in quotes because just taking the performance of the market yesterday and applying that as a predictor for current day is fairly precise. So in that regards, it is about as predictable as the weather. But all the people betting on the market is affecting the market. And that is a feedback loop designed to create chaos out of order in any process, let alone one that is fairly unstable to begin with.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
2
2
You know there are people who get entire PHD's trying to answer this question right? And you want it answered here in a few paragraphs?
– Issel
yesterday
You know there are people who get entire PHD's trying to answer this question right? And you want it answered here in a few paragraphs?
– Issel
yesterday
7
7
@C.E. Actually, usually the opposite is true: Random differences in individual behavior cancel each other out when aggregated over many individuals so that predictability improves. You have some reasoning to do involving feedback loops and non-linearity of the complex system to explain why this is not the case here.
– Peter A. Schneider
14 hours ago
@C.E. Actually, usually the opposite is true: Random differences in individual behavior cancel each other out when aggregated over many individuals so that predictability improves. You have some reasoning to do involving feedback loops and non-linearity of the complex system to explain why this is not the case here.
– Peter A. Schneider
14 hours ago
1
1
All of the predictable parts are already subtracted from the price.
– not_a_comcast_employee
12 hours ago
All of the predictable parts are already subtracted from the price.
– not_a_comcast_employee
12 hours ago
|
show 8 more comments
12 Answers
12
active
oldest
votes
The stock market measures how things change from what we predicted. If only things we predicted happened, the prices of stocks wouldn't really change.
You might think, "But Apple went from a tiny company to a giant company."
Sure, but if that was predictable, we all would have bought Apple stock back when it was a tiny company (since we knew it would become a giant company) and the price back then would have been much higher. The price of Apple stock was low in the past because we didn't know how big Apple would become. As that information became apparent, the price went up.
Simply put, anything people expect to happen will already be built into the price. The changes we see come from things unexpected.
A sudden trade war with China. Trump gets elected. A hurricane hits North Carolina. A particular drug is discovered to cure a disease, or maybe one is taken off the market because it causes birth defects.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
It is. The price of a stock today does include everything people expect to happen. The possibility that Apple would become what it is today has been factored into Apple's price all along. But that was mixed in with other then possible outcomes that didn't come to pass.
As I understand it, things like microsecond-scale data flight times are important for things like arbitrage. Nothing you've mentioned happens at that kind of timescale. If this kind of resolution were impossible, say a non-computerised market, would any external information about the outside world really be lost?
– Dannie
12 hours ago
1
@Dannie Arbitrage is nice, but it's a salami-slicing exercise, with wafer-thin slices of salami. If you want the entire sausage (or at least a thicker slice), you need something to change dramatically. But since everyone does not have perfect information, some people will bet one way and some will bet another. As soon as a shift becomes apparent and it becomes clear that one way brings in more money, everyone chases after that way, and prices escalate accordingly. This is a textbook example of a "positive feedback loop", and that is inherently unstable.
– Graham
11 hours ago
It seems to me this would make arbitrage at a timescale much shorter than real-world information flows detrimental to the functioning of that market? Im ean, who designs in positive-feedback loops? Why do markets seem to bend over backwards to reduce the reliability and stability of the market? For the moolah, I guess. I suppose it's possible you get a sharper edge to some real world event with that kind of noise included. You'd think companies would prefer to list on exchanges which didn't support this kind of activity. It does seem to require complicity from the exchange, doesn't it?
– Dannie
11 hours ago
1
@Dannie microsecond-scale communication is only important for a very particular kind of arbitrage, viz. the kind that takes advantage of the fact that "the stock market" is physically distributed over a number of data centers. If you can observe a large order coming in in one data center and beat that order to the next data center as it's propagated along, then you can adjust your prices and make money. You are not the first person to suggest that this shouldn't be allowed. Michael Lewis covered this in an episode of his podcast "Against the Rules" (episode title: "The Magic Shoebox")
– Nobody
9 hours ago
Sorry about the downvote but I'm beating the DOW because it isn't true. I wish I really could write up a better answer but the truth looks like drivel.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
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If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
Really?
Waking up,
You never oversleep.
deciding what sites to browse,
Not sure how many people plan that in the morning. I do not.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't
his be transferred to stocks?
Because:
- You do not even come close to have a good model. You assume because you have or can name a couple of data points that is a good model. It is not even close to be an idea for a possibly model.
- Because the stock market is not only people and it is a LOT of actors all actions quite possibly quite rationally but together forming a complex chaotic system.
You can not go easily from "I know how Joe would react" to "I have a model that can model millions of different actors reliably".
3
In 2 months I will know my wife for 35 years. She still doesn't know how I'll react much of the time. OP assumes too much. A few weeks ago, I made a bet on VXX (the volatility index ETF) which returned $1000 on $200. Based on things feeling too quiet. Sure enough, a few tweets from POTUS, and volatility spiked. Completely random stuff.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
1
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. To be fair, this is correct most of the time, and because of that most of the time the market does not change considerably. But of course, people who want to invest in stocks are interested in the changes and those attract most of the attention.
– SJuan76
18 hours ago
@SJuan76 to be fair, it only works for a diminishing fraction of people over time. The longer somebody has lived the more unexpected things have happened to him. Every day a number of people get in an accident, get mugged, win some lottery (okay maybe this one doesn't happen every day), etc. By the age of 50, if nothing unexpected has happened in a person's life, he is one of the lucky few (assuming his life in general is pleasant).
– Gnudiff
17 hours ago
1
It also only works because you picked pretty generic predictions. “I will get up today”. Now, make it more precise, like the exact second of the day you wake up or the exact motion of your legs as you go from your bed to your wardrobe and see how well you can predict that.
– spectras
9 hours ago
Re knowing what sites I'll browse, sure, most days (when I don't decide to e.g. go riding or hiking early because the weather's hot, or skiing because the snow's good, or whatever) you can pretty well predict that I will sit down with my cereal & coffee and browse SE (among other sites). But you'd have to know a lot more about me to predict which specific questions I'll find interesting enough to look at, and that depends on other people. And to a certain extent on the vagaries of nature: maybe someone started to ask a question that I'd find interesting, but the computer ate it...
– jamesqf
7 mins ago
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Short answer: arbitrage.
The way I see it, you're not really betting on anything physical, nor even on how well companies perform; you're betting on what all the other investors/speculators think about all that. And what everyone else thinks they think. And so on, and so on… It's a massive game of second-guessing, third-guessing, and umpteenth-guesing.
As Ben Kingley's character said in Sneakers, it's all about the information. The markets are designed to use information as efficiently as possible. (That's why insider trading is one of the most heinous financial crimes; it prevents the markets working efficiently.)
The result is that anything predictable cancels out. As soon as something is predictable, traders react by buying or selling, which moves the price to counteract it. And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens — to the point where the only price movements you see are completely unpredictable.
As soon as there's a difference between what the price is, and what people think it should be or is going to be, they will take advantage of that difference (arbitrage), and the difference will disappear. In effect, it's a very tight negative-feedback loop, filtering out everything but noise.
Few things in life are based around such a rapid and vast feedback loop, which is why it seems counterintuitive.
"And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens" Like the automated quant traders?
– nick012000
15 hours ago
5
Arguably insider trading makes markets even more efficient as it moves stock prices even faster and reflects even better information than the public has. The problem is more with allocation of profits from information than efficiency.
– lazarusL
14 hours ago
1
@lazarusL I would argue that insider trading only moves stock prices sometimes, for two reasons, both based on the fact that stock price is marginally determined by supply and demand. First, insider traders have to have sufficient capital to be able to move the markets in the first place, and second, those without the inside information can still be convinced of their (opposite) stance and make large (costly) errors in allocating their capital in that direction.
– Michael
12 hours ago
2
@Michael I mean... if insiders sell and outsiders buy such that the price remains the same, the market is no less efficient, it's just that the insiders win more and the outsiders lose more. If insiders shift the price, then the market is more efficient. I'm more inclined towards the argument that insiders undermine faith in markets and make outsiders wary of investing for fear of being beaten by insiders.
– lazarusL
11 hours ago
@lazarusL In either case (making the market more efficient or not), insiders have an unfair advantage because they essentially make close to risk free profit well above the risk free rate at the expense of those who are not insiders. This definitely does undermine faith!
– Michael
11 hours ago
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Whatever is predictable about a financial product is already factored into its price. For instance, if the company is predicted to do well, its stock becomes overvalued, and the opposite happens to companies those future looks grim.
The remaining uncertainty in a financial product after such corrections is truly random from the point of view of anyone who hasn't got a better prediction model. And if someone does, they will have the incentive to trade in a way that again factors that better knowledge into the price: they will buy products that they expect to perform well (thus increasing their price) and sell the products that they expect to perform poorly.
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I'm not sure why you think it is unpredictable. Good companies do well bad companies do poorly. Virtually all companies will fall when the market is overpriced and wall Street finds a reason to offload. Virtually all companies with solid earnings will rise when the market is undervalued. You see the market is very predictable when it reaches obvious valuations, both over and under. The reason you say it is unpredictable is because you are entering and exiting too frequently. If all you did was jump in at the bottom of a crash and jump out when it reached lofty valuations you would say it was very predictable
New contributor
1
At the same time, while the general behavior of the market is fairly predictable, the timing of it (for instance, when exactly the bottom of the crash has actually been reached) is not.
– Michael
12 hours ago
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The elephant in the room missing in the other answers is the irrationality inherent in stock (and other) markets.
Sure enough: There are many measurable, rational, "real" things influencing stock value. The monetary value of a company, how we expect the market for their products to develop, how expensive the stock is compared to the company's earnings, capital cost etc.
But one of the most influential reasons to buy or sell stock — driving its value up and down — is simply that we expect that stock to rise or fall in value. Speculation is as old as the markets.
The feedback loop which is thus established is pretty obvious: Part of the demand for stock has no discernible root in physical or financial reality; instead, it is driven by what other people think, which in turn is strongly influenced by that very stock value development.
This is how bubbles expand and burst, with oscillations that are orders of magnitude larger than the effects of the actual tangible operations of a company. Such feedback loops are non-linear and correspondingly hard to predict, and predicting them involves psychology more than economics. Some people do that better than others; you may be interested in Michael Lewis' The Big Short, specifically the story of Michael Burry2, or examine the point in time when Warren Buffet started buying again in 2008 while everybody else thought the world was going to end.1
My impression is that it is better for one's nerves to buy an index paper and stick with it ;-).
1 Finding the right point in time is like playing chicken which probably already the Neanderthals did with mammoths: If you are early, you are uncool; if you hit the perfect spot you are cool and get the girl; if you are late you are dead. And past successes are at best a weak indicator for the future.
2 Although truth be told, Michael Burry's shorting of CDOs was based on hard economics — he was about the only one reading the legally required fine print — and not psychology. He defied speculation arguing that eventually the underlying economic reality would put an end to it. He was right, in the end.
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Three reasons:
(a) thin margins
Companies sell a product for price P, and buy the stuff/services needed to build the product for price 0.9P. The profit is 0.1P, rather thin. If for some reason customers' willingness to pay decreases by 10%, the whole profit is lost. Thus, in times when economic conditions are not optimal, the company cannot pay dividend. The only reason people invest in stocks is in fact it, namely the dividend. (Some stocks don't pay dividend but their value is based on the expectation that someday they could start paying dividend. Note that dividends are equivalent to share buybacks, so if a company is buying back its shares, it's effectively paying dividend.)
(b) supply and demand
Prices do vary based on supply and demand of savings instruments. At times when saving money into stocks is trendy, stocks are expensive. At times when spending all of your money is trendy, stocks are cheap. For example, during a recession a huge number of people want to access their savings, driving down prices. If you are countercyclical, you will find that during a recession, you have a huge amount of good investment opportunities at ridiculously low prices.
(c) liquidity
Stock market is actually a safer investment than e.g. the housing market. See for example this: http://digitalarchive.maastrichtuniversity.nl/fedora/get/guid:cda347a3-7fdf-426e-99a4-1a2c30717764/ASSET1 (links seems to be rather slow as I'm writing this)
In this file, it is explained how house prices have gone both up and down. The maximum decrease was 80%. It's about the same than stocks during a very large depression. However, with stocks it's easy to diversify whereas most people have the money to purchase only 1 or perhaps 2 houses. So, due to lack of diversification it generally doesn't make sense to invest money into housing market but rather invest it into stock market.
Why people do think stocks are unpredictable and houses are predictable, then? Because stock market is liquid. The 80% crash in real house prices happened over a period of over 35 years between 1778-1779 and 1814-1815. Stocks could crash in few days or less.
Oh how I like the unexplained downvotes.
– juhist
yesterday
Join the club. Keep in mind, a member doesn’t need any reason to vote either up or down. I upvoted, as your answer addresses the stone in the pond effect pretty well. I.e. any unknown event can cause a ripple, in one company or entire market.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
5
The only reason why people invest in stocks is the dividends?
– mhoran_psprep
yesterday
@mhoran_psprep Yes. The value of a stock is the net present value of all future cash dividends (and dividend equivalents like buybacks, which are equivalent to dividends). A non-dividend-paying stock like Berkshire Hathaway has value because someday, let's say in 100 years, it will have to start paying dividend. There is no Greater Fool, so don't believe in the Greater Fool Theory!
– juhist
12 hours ago
The Louisiana Purchase (1803) nearly doubled the available land, no doubt contributing to the decline in real estate values. Ironically, the person who was behind it personally suffered a great deal because of it.
– Michael
12 hours ago
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So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
Stocks are, in essence, just a commodity to be bought and sold. And that means you have a price.
A price is simply a value we assign something (and we tend to go based on someone being willing to pay said price, not the pure opinion of the previous owner). Prices can be volatile. Milk might cost $3 per gallon, but what if some disease wipes out half the cows that make the milk? The price of milk goes up. Is there any way to predict that? And that's assuming we only have one factor driving the price to change.
Prices contain too much information to process meaningfully
Why prices are a mystery isn’t a mystery. The why of prices — or at least all the whys of prices — are simply unknowable. Sure, you might be able to know why person X wants $28.99 for his vintage Batman talking alarm clock while another person wants $80.99 for the same masterpiece, but you can’t know all the reasons why it originally sold for $9.99. Once you make your peace with that fact, the mystery ceases being mysterious.
What I think is fascinating is that prices aren’t unique. We think they are a category unto themselves. A price isn’t like anything else, right? Well, wrong — maybe. If prices are simply the agglomeration of disparate and complex information boiled down to a number, can’t other things be agglomerations of disparate and complex information boiled down to something else?
Anyway, the point I’m getting at is that there’s nothing — nothing — that we say, do, own, make, or believe that isn’t brimming with all of the sorts of information that go into a price.
The stock market is driven by a myriad of forces and interests. I have money in there for my retirement. Warren Buffet has money in there make money for other people. John Doe has money in there because he likes owning a certain brand of stock. Different goals. Maybe Warren Buffet dumps his stock in Company X, which drives the price down, while John hangs on to his no matter the price. Or maybe a bug in stock trading software causes havoc
When the market opened at 9:30 AM people quickly knew something was wrong. By 9:31 AM it was evident to many people on Wall Street that something serious was happening. The market was being flooded with orders out of the ordinary for regular trading volumes on certain stocks. By 9:32 AM many people on Wall Street were wondering why it hadn’t stopped. This was an eternity in high-speed trading terms. Why hadn’t someone hit the kill-switch on whatever system was doing this? As it turns out there was no kill switch. During the first 45-minutes of trading Knight’s executions constituted more than 50% of the trading volume, driving certain stocks up over 10% of their value. As a result other stocks decreased in value in response to the erroneous trades.
TL;DR
Stocks are based on prices (what people are willing to pay for them). Prices are based on too much information to know why they are priced the way they are at any given moment. Stocks are based on even more information than most commodities.
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There are two types of prediction problems typically.
The level 1 prediction models are for things like weather - one could predict something, wait and observe, and then correct the error for next prediction. The key aspect is the fact whether it would or would not rain on a certain day is not dependent, i.e., it does not change, due to the prediction (that it is going to rain, or it is not going to rain).
However level 2 predictions are harder - which is precisely the stock market. Even if one develops an excellent model that predicts how the stock market is going to behave, the moment somebody actually starts using the model to buy and sell stocks - the market "sees" the increased buying/selling of a certain stock, and corrects itself appropriately. Soon this excellent model becomes obsolete.
And the duration for which this excellent model predicted the stock behavior correctly could be really small, that its short term success is pretty much indistinguishable from noise.
New contributor
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A term that has been used to describe the stock market is anti-inductive. See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/h24JGbmweNpWZfBkM/markets-are-anti-inductive and
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/11/the-phatic-and-the-anti-inductive/ . Our knowledge of a planet's orbit doesn't affect it. So we can learn more about an orbit, and then the orbit will be easier to predict. But with the market, learning about it changes its behavior. Whenever we learn more about the market, ;people act on that information, changing the market. So the more people work on trying to understand the market, the more people are affecting the market, and the harder it is to understand the market. Unlike with predicting planet's orbits, when you predict the market, you have to include the behavior of people, and people will be reacting to your analysis of them market. So your predictions have to predict the actions of people reacting to analysis that predict the behavior of people reacting to analysis that predicts ... and so on.If one person happens to be better than everyone else at analyzing the market, then they might be successful in predicting it. But people in general can't predict the market, because the average person, by definition, isn't any better than any other average person, so if one average person can figure out that stock will go up, then every other average person can figure that out too and bid the price up. Stock market fluctuations represent the unpredicted parts of the economy. If they were predicted, then they would have already been included in the price. We can't predict market fluctuations because the fluctuations are by definition what isn't predicted.
Oh hey a less wrong link. While this summary is true I have a hard time believing it's the primary variable. I have reasonably certain knowledge that the equations that govern the market resist curve-fitting so even given the indicative form you would have a hard time profiting from it.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
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Why is the stock market so unpredictable? ...most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
If you mean overall and you mean in the long run then the US stock market is predictable.
It is like how people are predictable in large numbers - what a random person will do is not predictable.
At a US theme park (like Disney) people, when given a choice, will tend to turn right instead of left. That can be established as fact, because people study this stuff and that is what they've found.
That does not mean that you can predict whether a specific person will choose to go to the left or right at a specific place.
The stock market is the same:
A certified financial planner will likely tell you that, "If you will need the money in the next five years, you probably should not put it in the stock market."
Why would they say that?
Because if you look at mutual funds with 10+ year track records, you'll find that they have a positive return in almost all periods of five consecutive years of their history.
(four point something times out of five if I remember correctly)
TL;DR;
The stock market is very likely to go up if you are looking at period of five or more consecutive years.
What a particular stock will do is anybody's guess...
and they're all guessing differently...
and people change their guess from one day to the next...
and that is what sets the price...
which why a particular stock moves so erratically...
But... over time (measured in years)... the market goes up :-)
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There are two related reasons. The first is that if today's price is equal to yesterday's prices times a reward plus an appraisal error then the resulting difference equation can be proven to be intrinsically unstable, p(t+1)=Rx(t)+e(t+1). As long as the appraisal error has finite variance centered on zero, then any Frequentist statistical estimator will have no predictive power at all.
The second reason is that if an equilibrium price exists at each moment in time and the equilibrium reward plus a shock is the true reward then the distribution of returns around the equilibrium return will be the truncated Cauchy distribution if you have factored out liquidity risks, dividend risks, merger risks, and bankruptcy risks.
The Cauchy distribution is unusual in that it cannot have an average. You can always calculate the sample average but it won't ever settle down and converge to the true center of the distribution, which for stocks is the mode.
John Cook provides a graphical example of the difference of the behavior of the sample mean of a Cauchy distribution and the mean of the normal distribution. You can find it at Cauchy versus Normal
The mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot classified the behavior of random variables as having seven classifications. The type you generally encounter in day-to-day life is proper mild randomness. Equity security returns are the seventh class of randomness, which is extreme randomness.
In fact, you can predict things in equity markets. You can only use Bayesian methods. For a variety of reasons, it can be shown that it would be profoundly unwise to use a Frequentist methodology, but most do because it is what they know.
The difficulty is that most people try to predict things using Frequentist methods of proper mild randomness rather than Bayesian methods for extreme randomness. That includes professionals.
As there is no way to use MathML in this forum but I am about to produce a resource you could use though it is intended for those with doctorates in statistics, mathematics, finance, and economics. I will try and remember to post a link to it when it is in its final form. Elements of it could be used by anyone with a basic understanding of probability and basic calculus methods.
The physicist and statistical polemicist E.T. Jaynes wrote that had the first problems in statistics involved the Cauchy distribution the trajectory of the field of statistics would have been radically different.
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The stock market measures how things change from what we predicted. If only things we predicted happened, the prices of stocks wouldn't really change.
You might think, "But Apple went from a tiny company to a giant company."
Sure, but if that was predictable, we all would have bought Apple stock back when it was a tiny company (since we knew it would become a giant company) and the price back then would have been much higher. The price of Apple stock was low in the past because we didn't know how big Apple would become. As that information became apparent, the price went up.
Simply put, anything people expect to happen will already be built into the price. The changes we see come from things unexpected.
A sudden trade war with China. Trump gets elected. A hurricane hits North Carolina. A particular drug is discovered to cure a disease, or maybe one is taken off the market because it causes birth defects.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
It is. The price of a stock today does include everything people expect to happen. The possibility that Apple would become what it is today has been factored into Apple's price all along. But that was mixed in with other then possible outcomes that didn't come to pass.
As I understand it, things like microsecond-scale data flight times are important for things like arbitrage. Nothing you've mentioned happens at that kind of timescale. If this kind of resolution were impossible, say a non-computerised market, would any external information about the outside world really be lost?
– Dannie
12 hours ago
1
@Dannie Arbitrage is nice, but it's a salami-slicing exercise, with wafer-thin slices of salami. If you want the entire sausage (or at least a thicker slice), you need something to change dramatically. But since everyone does not have perfect information, some people will bet one way and some will bet another. As soon as a shift becomes apparent and it becomes clear that one way brings in more money, everyone chases after that way, and prices escalate accordingly. This is a textbook example of a "positive feedback loop", and that is inherently unstable.
– Graham
11 hours ago
It seems to me this would make arbitrage at a timescale much shorter than real-world information flows detrimental to the functioning of that market? Im ean, who designs in positive-feedback loops? Why do markets seem to bend over backwards to reduce the reliability and stability of the market? For the moolah, I guess. I suppose it's possible you get a sharper edge to some real world event with that kind of noise included. You'd think companies would prefer to list on exchanges which didn't support this kind of activity. It does seem to require complicity from the exchange, doesn't it?
– Dannie
11 hours ago
1
@Dannie microsecond-scale communication is only important for a very particular kind of arbitrage, viz. the kind that takes advantage of the fact that "the stock market" is physically distributed over a number of data centers. If you can observe a large order coming in in one data center and beat that order to the next data center as it's propagated along, then you can adjust your prices and make money. You are not the first person to suggest that this shouldn't be allowed. Michael Lewis covered this in an episode of his podcast "Against the Rules" (episode title: "The Magic Shoebox")
– Nobody
9 hours ago
Sorry about the downvote but I'm beating the DOW because it isn't true. I wish I really could write up a better answer but the truth looks like drivel.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
The stock market measures how things change from what we predicted. If only things we predicted happened, the prices of stocks wouldn't really change.
You might think, "But Apple went from a tiny company to a giant company."
Sure, but if that was predictable, we all would have bought Apple stock back when it was a tiny company (since we knew it would become a giant company) and the price back then would have been much higher. The price of Apple stock was low in the past because we didn't know how big Apple would become. As that information became apparent, the price went up.
Simply put, anything people expect to happen will already be built into the price. The changes we see come from things unexpected.
A sudden trade war with China. Trump gets elected. A hurricane hits North Carolina. A particular drug is discovered to cure a disease, or maybe one is taken off the market because it causes birth defects.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
It is. The price of a stock today does include everything people expect to happen. The possibility that Apple would become what it is today has been factored into Apple's price all along. But that was mixed in with other then possible outcomes that didn't come to pass.
As I understand it, things like microsecond-scale data flight times are important for things like arbitrage. Nothing you've mentioned happens at that kind of timescale. If this kind of resolution were impossible, say a non-computerised market, would any external information about the outside world really be lost?
– Dannie
12 hours ago
1
@Dannie Arbitrage is nice, but it's a salami-slicing exercise, with wafer-thin slices of salami. If you want the entire sausage (or at least a thicker slice), you need something to change dramatically. But since everyone does not have perfect information, some people will bet one way and some will bet another. As soon as a shift becomes apparent and it becomes clear that one way brings in more money, everyone chases after that way, and prices escalate accordingly. This is a textbook example of a "positive feedback loop", and that is inherently unstable.
– Graham
11 hours ago
It seems to me this would make arbitrage at a timescale much shorter than real-world information flows detrimental to the functioning of that market? Im ean, who designs in positive-feedback loops? Why do markets seem to bend over backwards to reduce the reliability and stability of the market? For the moolah, I guess. I suppose it's possible you get a sharper edge to some real world event with that kind of noise included. You'd think companies would prefer to list on exchanges which didn't support this kind of activity. It does seem to require complicity from the exchange, doesn't it?
– Dannie
11 hours ago
1
@Dannie microsecond-scale communication is only important for a very particular kind of arbitrage, viz. the kind that takes advantage of the fact that "the stock market" is physically distributed over a number of data centers. If you can observe a large order coming in in one data center and beat that order to the next data center as it's propagated along, then you can adjust your prices and make money. You are not the first person to suggest that this shouldn't be allowed. Michael Lewis covered this in an episode of his podcast "Against the Rules" (episode title: "The Magic Shoebox")
– Nobody
9 hours ago
Sorry about the downvote but I'm beating the DOW because it isn't true. I wish I really could write up a better answer but the truth looks like drivel.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
The stock market measures how things change from what we predicted. If only things we predicted happened, the prices of stocks wouldn't really change.
You might think, "But Apple went from a tiny company to a giant company."
Sure, but if that was predictable, we all would have bought Apple stock back when it was a tiny company (since we knew it would become a giant company) and the price back then would have been much higher. The price of Apple stock was low in the past because we didn't know how big Apple would become. As that information became apparent, the price went up.
Simply put, anything people expect to happen will already be built into the price. The changes we see come from things unexpected.
A sudden trade war with China. Trump gets elected. A hurricane hits North Carolina. A particular drug is discovered to cure a disease, or maybe one is taken off the market because it causes birth defects.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
It is. The price of a stock today does include everything people expect to happen. The possibility that Apple would become what it is today has been factored into Apple's price all along. But that was mixed in with other then possible outcomes that didn't come to pass.
The stock market measures how things change from what we predicted. If only things we predicted happened, the prices of stocks wouldn't really change.
You might think, "But Apple went from a tiny company to a giant company."
Sure, but if that was predictable, we all would have bought Apple stock back when it was a tiny company (since we knew it would become a giant company) and the price back then would have been much higher. The price of Apple stock was low in the past because we didn't know how big Apple would become. As that information became apparent, the price went up.
Simply put, anything people expect to happen will already be built into the price. The changes we see come from things unexpected.
A sudden trade war with China. Trump gets elected. A hurricane hits North Carolina. A particular drug is discovered to cure a disease, or maybe one is taken off the market because it causes birth defects.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
It is. The price of a stock today does include everything people expect to happen. The possibility that Apple would become what it is today has been factored into Apple's price all along. But that was mixed in with other then possible outcomes that didn't come to pass.
edited 14 hours ago
Cloud
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1,8354 gold badges7 silver badges18 bronze badges
answered yesterday
David SchwartzDavid Schwartz
5,63418 silver badges27 bronze badges
5,63418 silver badges27 bronze badges
As I understand it, things like microsecond-scale data flight times are important for things like arbitrage. Nothing you've mentioned happens at that kind of timescale. If this kind of resolution were impossible, say a non-computerised market, would any external information about the outside world really be lost?
– Dannie
12 hours ago
1
@Dannie Arbitrage is nice, but it's a salami-slicing exercise, with wafer-thin slices of salami. If you want the entire sausage (or at least a thicker slice), you need something to change dramatically. But since everyone does not have perfect information, some people will bet one way and some will bet another. As soon as a shift becomes apparent and it becomes clear that one way brings in more money, everyone chases after that way, and prices escalate accordingly. This is a textbook example of a "positive feedback loop", and that is inherently unstable.
– Graham
11 hours ago
It seems to me this would make arbitrage at a timescale much shorter than real-world information flows detrimental to the functioning of that market? Im ean, who designs in positive-feedback loops? Why do markets seem to bend over backwards to reduce the reliability and stability of the market? For the moolah, I guess. I suppose it's possible you get a sharper edge to some real world event with that kind of noise included. You'd think companies would prefer to list on exchanges which didn't support this kind of activity. It does seem to require complicity from the exchange, doesn't it?
– Dannie
11 hours ago
1
@Dannie microsecond-scale communication is only important for a very particular kind of arbitrage, viz. the kind that takes advantage of the fact that "the stock market" is physically distributed over a number of data centers. If you can observe a large order coming in in one data center and beat that order to the next data center as it's propagated along, then you can adjust your prices and make money. You are not the first person to suggest that this shouldn't be allowed. Michael Lewis covered this in an episode of his podcast "Against the Rules" (episode title: "The Magic Shoebox")
– Nobody
9 hours ago
Sorry about the downvote but I'm beating the DOW because it isn't true. I wish I really could write up a better answer but the truth looks like drivel.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
As I understand it, things like microsecond-scale data flight times are important for things like arbitrage. Nothing you've mentioned happens at that kind of timescale. If this kind of resolution were impossible, say a non-computerised market, would any external information about the outside world really be lost?
– Dannie
12 hours ago
1
@Dannie Arbitrage is nice, but it's a salami-slicing exercise, with wafer-thin slices of salami. If you want the entire sausage (or at least a thicker slice), you need something to change dramatically. But since everyone does not have perfect information, some people will bet one way and some will bet another. As soon as a shift becomes apparent and it becomes clear that one way brings in more money, everyone chases after that way, and prices escalate accordingly. This is a textbook example of a "positive feedback loop", and that is inherently unstable.
– Graham
11 hours ago
It seems to me this would make arbitrage at a timescale much shorter than real-world information flows detrimental to the functioning of that market? Im ean, who designs in positive-feedback loops? Why do markets seem to bend over backwards to reduce the reliability and stability of the market? For the moolah, I guess. I suppose it's possible you get a sharper edge to some real world event with that kind of noise included. You'd think companies would prefer to list on exchanges which didn't support this kind of activity. It does seem to require complicity from the exchange, doesn't it?
– Dannie
11 hours ago
1
@Dannie microsecond-scale communication is only important for a very particular kind of arbitrage, viz. the kind that takes advantage of the fact that "the stock market" is physically distributed over a number of data centers. If you can observe a large order coming in in one data center and beat that order to the next data center as it's propagated along, then you can adjust your prices and make money. You are not the first person to suggest that this shouldn't be allowed. Michael Lewis covered this in an episode of his podcast "Against the Rules" (episode title: "The Magic Shoebox")
– Nobody
9 hours ago
Sorry about the downvote but I'm beating the DOW because it isn't true. I wish I really could write up a better answer but the truth looks like drivel.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
As I understand it, things like microsecond-scale data flight times are important for things like arbitrage. Nothing you've mentioned happens at that kind of timescale. If this kind of resolution were impossible, say a non-computerised market, would any external information about the outside world really be lost?
– Dannie
12 hours ago
As I understand it, things like microsecond-scale data flight times are important for things like arbitrage. Nothing you've mentioned happens at that kind of timescale. If this kind of resolution were impossible, say a non-computerised market, would any external information about the outside world really be lost?
– Dannie
12 hours ago
1
1
@Dannie Arbitrage is nice, but it's a salami-slicing exercise, with wafer-thin slices of salami. If you want the entire sausage (or at least a thicker slice), you need something to change dramatically. But since everyone does not have perfect information, some people will bet one way and some will bet another. As soon as a shift becomes apparent and it becomes clear that one way brings in more money, everyone chases after that way, and prices escalate accordingly. This is a textbook example of a "positive feedback loop", and that is inherently unstable.
– Graham
11 hours ago
@Dannie Arbitrage is nice, but it's a salami-slicing exercise, with wafer-thin slices of salami. If you want the entire sausage (or at least a thicker slice), you need something to change dramatically. But since everyone does not have perfect information, some people will bet one way and some will bet another. As soon as a shift becomes apparent and it becomes clear that one way brings in more money, everyone chases after that way, and prices escalate accordingly. This is a textbook example of a "positive feedback loop", and that is inherently unstable.
– Graham
11 hours ago
It seems to me this would make arbitrage at a timescale much shorter than real-world information flows detrimental to the functioning of that market? Im ean, who designs in positive-feedback loops? Why do markets seem to bend over backwards to reduce the reliability and stability of the market? For the moolah, I guess. I suppose it's possible you get a sharper edge to some real world event with that kind of noise included. You'd think companies would prefer to list on exchanges which didn't support this kind of activity. It does seem to require complicity from the exchange, doesn't it?
– Dannie
11 hours ago
It seems to me this would make arbitrage at a timescale much shorter than real-world information flows detrimental to the functioning of that market? Im ean, who designs in positive-feedback loops? Why do markets seem to bend over backwards to reduce the reliability and stability of the market? For the moolah, I guess. I suppose it's possible you get a sharper edge to some real world event with that kind of noise included. You'd think companies would prefer to list on exchanges which didn't support this kind of activity. It does seem to require complicity from the exchange, doesn't it?
– Dannie
11 hours ago
1
1
@Dannie microsecond-scale communication is only important for a very particular kind of arbitrage, viz. the kind that takes advantage of the fact that "the stock market" is physically distributed over a number of data centers. If you can observe a large order coming in in one data center and beat that order to the next data center as it's propagated along, then you can adjust your prices and make money. You are not the first person to suggest that this shouldn't be allowed. Michael Lewis covered this in an episode of his podcast "Against the Rules" (episode title: "The Magic Shoebox")
– Nobody
9 hours ago
@Dannie microsecond-scale communication is only important for a very particular kind of arbitrage, viz. the kind that takes advantage of the fact that "the stock market" is physically distributed over a number of data centers. If you can observe a large order coming in in one data center and beat that order to the next data center as it's propagated along, then you can adjust your prices and make money. You are not the first person to suggest that this shouldn't be allowed. Michael Lewis covered this in an episode of his podcast "Against the Rules" (episode title: "The Magic Shoebox")
– Nobody
9 hours ago
Sorry about the downvote but I'm beating the DOW because it isn't true. I wish I really could write up a better answer but the truth looks like drivel.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
Sorry about the downvote but I'm beating the DOW because it isn't true. I wish I really could write up a better answer but the truth looks like drivel.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
Really?
Waking up,
You never oversleep.
deciding what sites to browse,
Not sure how many people plan that in the morning. I do not.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't
his be transferred to stocks?
Because:
- You do not even come close to have a good model. You assume because you have or can name a couple of data points that is a good model. It is not even close to be an idea for a possibly model.
- Because the stock market is not only people and it is a LOT of actors all actions quite possibly quite rationally but together forming a complex chaotic system.
You can not go easily from "I know how Joe would react" to "I have a model that can model millions of different actors reliably".
3
In 2 months I will know my wife for 35 years. She still doesn't know how I'll react much of the time. OP assumes too much. A few weeks ago, I made a bet on VXX (the volatility index ETF) which returned $1000 on $200. Based on things feeling too quiet. Sure enough, a few tweets from POTUS, and volatility spiked. Completely random stuff.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
1
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. To be fair, this is correct most of the time, and because of that most of the time the market does not change considerably. But of course, people who want to invest in stocks are interested in the changes and those attract most of the attention.
– SJuan76
18 hours ago
@SJuan76 to be fair, it only works for a diminishing fraction of people over time. The longer somebody has lived the more unexpected things have happened to him. Every day a number of people get in an accident, get mugged, win some lottery (okay maybe this one doesn't happen every day), etc. By the age of 50, if nothing unexpected has happened in a person's life, he is one of the lucky few (assuming his life in general is pleasant).
– Gnudiff
17 hours ago
1
It also only works because you picked pretty generic predictions. “I will get up today”. Now, make it more precise, like the exact second of the day you wake up or the exact motion of your legs as you go from your bed to your wardrobe and see how well you can predict that.
– spectras
9 hours ago
Re knowing what sites I'll browse, sure, most days (when I don't decide to e.g. go riding or hiking early because the weather's hot, or skiing because the snow's good, or whatever) you can pretty well predict that I will sit down with my cereal & coffee and browse SE (among other sites). But you'd have to know a lot more about me to predict which specific questions I'll find interesting enough to look at, and that depends on other people. And to a certain extent on the vagaries of nature: maybe someone started to ask a question that I'd find interesting, but the computer ate it...
– jamesqf
7 mins ago
add a comment
|
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
Really?
Waking up,
You never oversleep.
deciding what sites to browse,
Not sure how many people plan that in the morning. I do not.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't
his be transferred to stocks?
Because:
- You do not even come close to have a good model. You assume because you have or can name a couple of data points that is a good model. It is not even close to be an idea for a possibly model.
- Because the stock market is not only people and it is a LOT of actors all actions quite possibly quite rationally but together forming a complex chaotic system.
You can not go easily from "I know how Joe would react" to "I have a model that can model millions of different actors reliably".
3
In 2 months I will know my wife for 35 years. She still doesn't know how I'll react much of the time. OP assumes too much. A few weeks ago, I made a bet on VXX (the volatility index ETF) which returned $1000 on $200. Based on things feeling too quiet. Sure enough, a few tweets from POTUS, and volatility spiked. Completely random stuff.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
1
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. To be fair, this is correct most of the time, and because of that most of the time the market does not change considerably. But of course, people who want to invest in stocks are interested in the changes and those attract most of the attention.
– SJuan76
18 hours ago
@SJuan76 to be fair, it only works for a diminishing fraction of people over time. The longer somebody has lived the more unexpected things have happened to him. Every day a number of people get in an accident, get mugged, win some lottery (okay maybe this one doesn't happen every day), etc. By the age of 50, if nothing unexpected has happened in a person's life, he is one of the lucky few (assuming his life in general is pleasant).
– Gnudiff
17 hours ago
1
It also only works because you picked pretty generic predictions. “I will get up today”. Now, make it more precise, like the exact second of the day you wake up or the exact motion of your legs as you go from your bed to your wardrobe and see how well you can predict that.
– spectras
9 hours ago
Re knowing what sites I'll browse, sure, most days (when I don't decide to e.g. go riding or hiking early because the weather's hot, or skiing because the snow's good, or whatever) you can pretty well predict that I will sit down with my cereal & coffee and browse SE (among other sites). But you'd have to know a lot more about me to predict which specific questions I'll find interesting enough to look at, and that depends on other people. And to a certain extent on the vagaries of nature: maybe someone started to ask a question that I'd find interesting, but the computer ate it...
– jamesqf
7 mins ago
add a comment
|
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
Really?
Waking up,
You never oversleep.
deciding what sites to browse,
Not sure how many people plan that in the morning. I do not.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't
his be transferred to stocks?
Because:
- You do not even come close to have a good model. You assume because you have or can name a couple of data points that is a good model. It is not even close to be an idea for a possibly model.
- Because the stock market is not only people and it is a LOT of actors all actions quite possibly quite rationally but together forming a complex chaotic system.
You can not go easily from "I know how Joe would react" to "I have a model that can model millions of different actors reliably".
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
Really?
Waking up,
You never oversleep.
deciding what sites to browse,
Not sure how many people plan that in the morning. I do not.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't
his be transferred to stocks?
Because:
- You do not even come close to have a good model. You assume because you have or can name a couple of data points that is a good model. It is not even close to be an idea for a possibly model.
- Because the stock market is not only people and it is a LOT of actors all actions quite possibly quite rationally but together forming a complex chaotic system.
You can not go easily from "I know how Joe would react" to "I have a model that can model millions of different actors reliably".
edited 10 hours ago
Ganesh Sittampalam♦
19.8k6 gold badges64 silver badges95 bronze badges
19.8k6 gold badges64 silver badges95 bronze badges
answered yesterday
TomTomTomTom
4,8632 gold badges16 silver badges20 bronze badges
4,8632 gold badges16 silver badges20 bronze badges
3
In 2 months I will know my wife for 35 years. She still doesn't know how I'll react much of the time. OP assumes too much. A few weeks ago, I made a bet on VXX (the volatility index ETF) which returned $1000 on $200. Based on things feeling too quiet. Sure enough, a few tweets from POTUS, and volatility spiked. Completely random stuff.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
1
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. To be fair, this is correct most of the time, and because of that most of the time the market does not change considerably. But of course, people who want to invest in stocks are interested in the changes and those attract most of the attention.
– SJuan76
18 hours ago
@SJuan76 to be fair, it only works for a diminishing fraction of people over time. The longer somebody has lived the more unexpected things have happened to him. Every day a number of people get in an accident, get mugged, win some lottery (okay maybe this one doesn't happen every day), etc. By the age of 50, if nothing unexpected has happened in a person's life, he is one of the lucky few (assuming his life in general is pleasant).
– Gnudiff
17 hours ago
1
It also only works because you picked pretty generic predictions. “I will get up today”. Now, make it more precise, like the exact second of the day you wake up or the exact motion of your legs as you go from your bed to your wardrobe and see how well you can predict that.
– spectras
9 hours ago
Re knowing what sites I'll browse, sure, most days (when I don't decide to e.g. go riding or hiking early because the weather's hot, or skiing because the snow's good, or whatever) you can pretty well predict that I will sit down with my cereal & coffee and browse SE (among other sites). But you'd have to know a lot more about me to predict which specific questions I'll find interesting enough to look at, and that depends on other people. And to a certain extent on the vagaries of nature: maybe someone started to ask a question that I'd find interesting, but the computer ate it...
– jamesqf
7 mins ago
add a comment
|
3
In 2 months I will know my wife for 35 years. She still doesn't know how I'll react much of the time. OP assumes too much. A few weeks ago, I made a bet on VXX (the volatility index ETF) which returned $1000 on $200. Based on things feeling too quiet. Sure enough, a few tweets from POTUS, and volatility spiked. Completely random stuff.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
1
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. To be fair, this is correct most of the time, and because of that most of the time the market does not change considerably. But of course, people who want to invest in stocks are interested in the changes and those attract most of the attention.
– SJuan76
18 hours ago
@SJuan76 to be fair, it only works for a diminishing fraction of people over time. The longer somebody has lived the more unexpected things have happened to him. Every day a number of people get in an accident, get mugged, win some lottery (okay maybe this one doesn't happen every day), etc. By the age of 50, if nothing unexpected has happened in a person's life, he is one of the lucky few (assuming his life in general is pleasant).
– Gnudiff
17 hours ago
1
It also only works because you picked pretty generic predictions. “I will get up today”. Now, make it more precise, like the exact second of the day you wake up or the exact motion of your legs as you go from your bed to your wardrobe and see how well you can predict that.
– spectras
9 hours ago
Re knowing what sites I'll browse, sure, most days (when I don't decide to e.g. go riding or hiking early because the weather's hot, or skiing because the snow's good, or whatever) you can pretty well predict that I will sit down with my cereal & coffee and browse SE (among other sites). But you'd have to know a lot more about me to predict which specific questions I'll find interesting enough to look at, and that depends on other people. And to a certain extent on the vagaries of nature: maybe someone started to ask a question that I'd find interesting, but the computer ate it...
– jamesqf
7 mins ago
3
3
In 2 months I will know my wife for 35 years. She still doesn't know how I'll react much of the time. OP assumes too much. A few weeks ago, I made a bet on VXX (the volatility index ETF) which returned $1000 on $200. Based on things feeling too quiet. Sure enough, a few tweets from POTUS, and volatility spiked. Completely random stuff.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
In 2 months I will know my wife for 35 years. She still doesn't know how I'll react much of the time. OP assumes too much. A few weeks ago, I made a bet on VXX (the volatility index ETF) which returned $1000 on $200. Based on things feeling too quiet. Sure enough, a few tweets from POTUS, and volatility spiked. Completely random stuff.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
1
1
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. To be fair, this is correct most of the time, and because of that most of the time the market does not change considerably. But of course, people who want to invest in stocks are interested in the changes and those attract most of the attention.
– SJuan76
18 hours ago
If you think about, most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable. To be fair, this is correct most of the time, and because of that most of the time the market does not change considerably. But of course, people who want to invest in stocks are interested in the changes and those attract most of the attention.
– SJuan76
18 hours ago
@SJuan76 to be fair, it only works for a diminishing fraction of people over time. The longer somebody has lived the more unexpected things have happened to him. Every day a number of people get in an accident, get mugged, win some lottery (okay maybe this one doesn't happen every day), etc. By the age of 50, if nothing unexpected has happened in a person's life, he is one of the lucky few (assuming his life in general is pleasant).
– Gnudiff
17 hours ago
@SJuan76 to be fair, it only works for a diminishing fraction of people over time. The longer somebody has lived the more unexpected things have happened to him. Every day a number of people get in an accident, get mugged, win some lottery (okay maybe this one doesn't happen every day), etc. By the age of 50, if nothing unexpected has happened in a person's life, he is one of the lucky few (assuming his life in general is pleasant).
– Gnudiff
17 hours ago
1
1
It also only works because you picked pretty generic predictions. “I will get up today”. Now, make it more precise, like the exact second of the day you wake up or the exact motion of your legs as you go from your bed to your wardrobe and see how well you can predict that.
– spectras
9 hours ago
It also only works because you picked pretty generic predictions. “I will get up today”. Now, make it more precise, like the exact second of the day you wake up or the exact motion of your legs as you go from your bed to your wardrobe and see how well you can predict that.
– spectras
9 hours ago
Re knowing what sites I'll browse, sure, most days (when I don't decide to e.g. go riding or hiking early because the weather's hot, or skiing because the snow's good, or whatever) you can pretty well predict that I will sit down with my cereal & coffee and browse SE (among other sites). But you'd have to know a lot more about me to predict which specific questions I'll find interesting enough to look at, and that depends on other people. And to a certain extent on the vagaries of nature: maybe someone started to ask a question that I'd find interesting, but the computer ate it...
– jamesqf
7 mins ago
Re knowing what sites I'll browse, sure, most days (when I don't decide to e.g. go riding or hiking early because the weather's hot, or skiing because the snow's good, or whatever) you can pretty well predict that I will sit down with my cereal & coffee and browse SE (among other sites). But you'd have to know a lot more about me to predict which specific questions I'll find interesting enough to look at, and that depends on other people. And to a certain extent on the vagaries of nature: maybe someone started to ask a question that I'd find interesting, but the computer ate it...
– jamesqf
7 mins ago
add a comment
|
Short answer: arbitrage.
The way I see it, you're not really betting on anything physical, nor even on how well companies perform; you're betting on what all the other investors/speculators think about all that. And what everyone else thinks they think. And so on, and so on… It's a massive game of second-guessing, third-guessing, and umpteenth-guesing.
As Ben Kingley's character said in Sneakers, it's all about the information. The markets are designed to use information as efficiently as possible. (That's why insider trading is one of the most heinous financial crimes; it prevents the markets working efficiently.)
The result is that anything predictable cancels out. As soon as something is predictable, traders react by buying or selling, which moves the price to counteract it. And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens — to the point where the only price movements you see are completely unpredictable.
As soon as there's a difference between what the price is, and what people think it should be or is going to be, they will take advantage of that difference (arbitrage), and the difference will disappear. In effect, it's a very tight negative-feedback loop, filtering out everything but noise.
Few things in life are based around such a rapid and vast feedback loop, which is why it seems counterintuitive.
"And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens" Like the automated quant traders?
– nick012000
15 hours ago
5
Arguably insider trading makes markets even more efficient as it moves stock prices even faster and reflects even better information than the public has. The problem is more with allocation of profits from information than efficiency.
– lazarusL
14 hours ago
1
@lazarusL I would argue that insider trading only moves stock prices sometimes, for two reasons, both based on the fact that stock price is marginally determined by supply and demand. First, insider traders have to have sufficient capital to be able to move the markets in the first place, and second, those without the inside information can still be convinced of their (opposite) stance and make large (costly) errors in allocating their capital in that direction.
– Michael
12 hours ago
2
@Michael I mean... if insiders sell and outsiders buy such that the price remains the same, the market is no less efficient, it's just that the insiders win more and the outsiders lose more. If insiders shift the price, then the market is more efficient. I'm more inclined towards the argument that insiders undermine faith in markets and make outsiders wary of investing for fear of being beaten by insiders.
– lazarusL
11 hours ago
@lazarusL In either case (making the market more efficient or not), insiders have an unfair advantage because they essentially make close to risk free profit well above the risk free rate at the expense of those who are not insiders. This definitely does undermine faith!
– Michael
11 hours ago
add a comment
|
Short answer: arbitrage.
The way I see it, you're not really betting on anything physical, nor even on how well companies perform; you're betting on what all the other investors/speculators think about all that. And what everyone else thinks they think. And so on, and so on… It's a massive game of second-guessing, third-guessing, and umpteenth-guesing.
As Ben Kingley's character said in Sneakers, it's all about the information. The markets are designed to use information as efficiently as possible. (That's why insider trading is one of the most heinous financial crimes; it prevents the markets working efficiently.)
The result is that anything predictable cancels out. As soon as something is predictable, traders react by buying or selling, which moves the price to counteract it. And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens — to the point where the only price movements you see are completely unpredictable.
As soon as there's a difference between what the price is, and what people think it should be or is going to be, they will take advantage of that difference (arbitrage), and the difference will disappear. In effect, it's a very tight negative-feedback loop, filtering out everything but noise.
Few things in life are based around such a rapid and vast feedback loop, which is why it seems counterintuitive.
"And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens" Like the automated quant traders?
– nick012000
15 hours ago
5
Arguably insider trading makes markets even more efficient as it moves stock prices even faster and reflects even better information than the public has. The problem is more with allocation of profits from information than efficiency.
– lazarusL
14 hours ago
1
@lazarusL I would argue that insider trading only moves stock prices sometimes, for two reasons, both based on the fact that stock price is marginally determined by supply and demand. First, insider traders have to have sufficient capital to be able to move the markets in the first place, and second, those without the inside information can still be convinced of their (opposite) stance and make large (costly) errors in allocating their capital in that direction.
– Michael
12 hours ago
2
@Michael I mean... if insiders sell and outsiders buy such that the price remains the same, the market is no less efficient, it's just that the insiders win more and the outsiders lose more. If insiders shift the price, then the market is more efficient. I'm more inclined towards the argument that insiders undermine faith in markets and make outsiders wary of investing for fear of being beaten by insiders.
– lazarusL
11 hours ago
@lazarusL In either case (making the market more efficient or not), insiders have an unfair advantage because they essentially make close to risk free profit well above the risk free rate at the expense of those who are not insiders. This definitely does undermine faith!
– Michael
11 hours ago
add a comment
|
Short answer: arbitrage.
The way I see it, you're not really betting on anything physical, nor even on how well companies perform; you're betting on what all the other investors/speculators think about all that. And what everyone else thinks they think. And so on, and so on… It's a massive game of second-guessing, third-guessing, and umpteenth-guesing.
As Ben Kingley's character said in Sneakers, it's all about the information. The markets are designed to use information as efficiently as possible. (That's why insider trading is one of the most heinous financial crimes; it prevents the markets working efficiently.)
The result is that anything predictable cancels out. As soon as something is predictable, traders react by buying or selling, which moves the price to counteract it. And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens — to the point where the only price movements you see are completely unpredictable.
As soon as there's a difference between what the price is, and what people think it should be or is going to be, they will take advantage of that difference (arbitrage), and the difference will disappear. In effect, it's a very tight negative-feedback loop, filtering out everything but noise.
Few things in life are based around such a rapid and vast feedback loop, which is why it seems counterintuitive.
Short answer: arbitrage.
The way I see it, you're not really betting on anything physical, nor even on how well companies perform; you're betting on what all the other investors/speculators think about all that. And what everyone else thinks they think. And so on, and so on… It's a massive game of second-guessing, third-guessing, and umpteenth-guesing.
As Ben Kingley's character said in Sneakers, it's all about the information. The markets are designed to use information as efficiently as possible. (That's why insider trading is one of the most heinous financial crimes; it prevents the markets working efficiently.)
The result is that anything predictable cancels out. As soon as something is predictable, traders react by buying or selling, which moves the price to counteract it. And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens — to the point where the only price movements you see are completely unpredictable.
As soon as there's a difference between what the price is, and what people think it should be or is going to be, they will take advantage of that difference (arbitrage), and the difference will disappear. In effect, it's a very tight negative-feedback loop, filtering out everything but noise.
Few things in life are based around such a rapid and vast feedback loop, which is why it seems counterintuitive.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
giddsgidds
2614 bronze badges
2614 bronze badges
"And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens" Like the automated quant traders?
– nick012000
15 hours ago
5
Arguably insider trading makes markets even more efficient as it moves stock prices even faster and reflects even better information than the public has. The problem is more with allocation of profits from information than efficiency.
– lazarusL
14 hours ago
1
@lazarusL I would argue that insider trading only moves stock prices sometimes, for two reasons, both based on the fact that stock price is marginally determined by supply and demand. First, insider traders have to have sufficient capital to be able to move the markets in the first place, and second, those without the inside information can still be convinced of their (opposite) stance and make large (costly) errors in allocating their capital in that direction.
– Michael
12 hours ago
2
@Michael I mean... if insiders sell and outsiders buy such that the price remains the same, the market is no less efficient, it's just that the insiders win more and the outsiders lose more. If insiders shift the price, then the market is more efficient. I'm more inclined towards the argument that insiders undermine faith in markets and make outsiders wary of investing for fear of being beaten by insiders.
– lazarusL
11 hours ago
@lazarusL In either case (making the market more efficient or not), insiders have an unfair advantage because they essentially make close to risk free profit well above the risk free rate at the expense of those who are not insiders. This definitely does undermine faith!
– Michael
11 hours ago
add a comment
|
"And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens" Like the automated quant traders?
– nick012000
15 hours ago
5
Arguably insider trading makes markets even more efficient as it moves stock prices even faster and reflects even better information than the public has. The problem is more with allocation of profits from information than efficiency.
– lazarusL
14 hours ago
1
@lazarusL I would argue that insider trading only moves stock prices sometimes, for two reasons, both based on the fact that stock price is marginally determined by supply and demand. First, insider traders have to have sufficient capital to be able to move the markets in the first place, and second, those without the inside information can still be convinced of their (opposite) stance and make large (costly) errors in allocating their capital in that direction.
– Michael
12 hours ago
2
@Michael I mean... if insiders sell and outsiders buy such that the price remains the same, the market is no less efficient, it's just that the insiders win more and the outsiders lose more. If insiders shift the price, then the market is more efficient. I'm more inclined towards the argument that insiders undermine faith in markets and make outsiders wary of investing for fear of being beaten by insiders.
– lazarusL
11 hours ago
@lazarusL In either case (making the market more efficient or not), insiders have an unfair advantage because they essentially make close to risk free profit well above the risk free rate at the expense of those who are not insiders. This definitely does undermine faith!
– Michael
11 hours ago
"And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens" Like the automated quant traders?
– nick012000
15 hours ago
"And the more efficient the markets become, the faster and more accurately this happens" Like the automated quant traders?
– nick012000
15 hours ago
5
5
Arguably insider trading makes markets even more efficient as it moves stock prices even faster and reflects even better information than the public has. The problem is more with allocation of profits from information than efficiency.
– lazarusL
14 hours ago
Arguably insider trading makes markets even more efficient as it moves stock prices even faster and reflects even better information than the public has. The problem is more with allocation of profits from information than efficiency.
– lazarusL
14 hours ago
1
1
@lazarusL I would argue that insider trading only moves stock prices sometimes, for two reasons, both based on the fact that stock price is marginally determined by supply and demand. First, insider traders have to have sufficient capital to be able to move the markets in the first place, and second, those without the inside information can still be convinced of their (opposite) stance and make large (costly) errors in allocating their capital in that direction.
– Michael
12 hours ago
@lazarusL I would argue that insider trading only moves stock prices sometimes, for two reasons, both based on the fact that stock price is marginally determined by supply and demand. First, insider traders have to have sufficient capital to be able to move the markets in the first place, and second, those without the inside information can still be convinced of their (opposite) stance and make large (costly) errors in allocating their capital in that direction.
– Michael
12 hours ago
2
2
@Michael I mean... if insiders sell and outsiders buy such that the price remains the same, the market is no less efficient, it's just that the insiders win more and the outsiders lose more. If insiders shift the price, then the market is more efficient. I'm more inclined towards the argument that insiders undermine faith in markets and make outsiders wary of investing for fear of being beaten by insiders.
– lazarusL
11 hours ago
@Michael I mean... if insiders sell and outsiders buy such that the price remains the same, the market is no less efficient, it's just that the insiders win more and the outsiders lose more. If insiders shift the price, then the market is more efficient. I'm more inclined towards the argument that insiders undermine faith in markets and make outsiders wary of investing for fear of being beaten by insiders.
– lazarusL
11 hours ago
@lazarusL In either case (making the market more efficient or not), insiders have an unfair advantage because they essentially make close to risk free profit well above the risk free rate at the expense of those who are not insiders. This definitely does undermine faith!
– Michael
11 hours ago
@lazarusL In either case (making the market more efficient or not), insiders have an unfair advantage because they essentially make close to risk free profit well above the risk free rate at the expense of those who are not insiders. This definitely does undermine faith!
– Michael
11 hours ago
add a comment
|
Whatever is predictable about a financial product is already factored into its price. For instance, if the company is predicted to do well, its stock becomes overvalued, and the opposite happens to companies those future looks grim.
The remaining uncertainty in a financial product after such corrections is truly random from the point of view of anyone who hasn't got a better prediction model. And if someone does, they will have the incentive to trade in a way that again factors that better knowledge into the price: they will buy products that they expect to perform well (thus increasing their price) and sell the products that they expect to perform poorly.
add a comment
|
Whatever is predictable about a financial product is already factored into its price. For instance, if the company is predicted to do well, its stock becomes overvalued, and the opposite happens to companies those future looks grim.
The remaining uncertainty in a financial product after such corrections is truly random from the point of view of anyone who hasn't got a better prediction model. And if someone does, they will have the incentive to trade in a way that again factors that better knowledge into the price: they will buy products that they expect to perform well (thus increasing their price) and sell the products that they expect to perform poorly.
add a comment
|
Whatever is predictable about a financial product is already factored into its price. For instance, if the company is predicted to do well, its stock becomes overvalued, and the opposite happens to companies those future looks grim.
The remaining uncertainty in a financial product after such corrections is truly random from the point of view of anyone who hasn't got a better prediction model. And if someone does, they will have the incentive to trade in a way that again factors that better knowledge into the price: they will buy products that they expect to perform well (thus increasing their price) and sell the products that they expect to perform poorly.
Whatever is predictable about a financial product is already factored into its price. For instance, if the company is predicted to do well, its stock becomes overvalued, and the opposite happens to companies those future looks grim.
The remaining uncertainty in a financial product after such corrections is truly random from the point of view of anyone who hasn't got a better prediction model. And if someone does, they will have the incentive to trade in a way that again factors that better knowledge into the price: they will buy products that they expect to perform well (thus increasing their price) and sell the products that they expect to perform poorly.
edited 18 hours ago
answered 20 hours ago
Dmitry GrigoryevDmitry Grigoryev
1,1795 silver badges14 bronze badges
1,1795 silver badges14 bronze badges
add a comment
|
add a comment
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I'm not sure why you think it is unpredictable. Good companies do well bad companies do poorly. Virtually all companies will fall when the market is overpriced and wall Street finds a reason to offload. Virtually all companies with solid earnings will rise when the market is undervalued. You see the market is very predictable when it reaches obvious valuations, both over and under. The reason you say it is unpredictable is because you are entering and exiting too frequently. If all you did was jump in at the bottom of a crash and jump out when it reached lofty valuations you would say it was very predictable
New contributor
1
At the same time, while the general behavior of the market is fairly predictable, the timing of it (for instance, when exactly the bottom of the crash has actually been reached) is not.
– Michael
12 hours ago
add a comment
|
I'm not sure why you think it is unpredictable. Good companies do well bad companies do poorly. Virtually all companies will fall when the market is overpriced and wall Street finds a reason to offload. Virtually all companies with solid earnings will rise when the market is undervalued. You see the market is very predictable when it reaches obvious valuations, both over and under. The reason you say it is unpredictable is because you are entering and exiting too frequently. If all you did was jump in at the bottom of a crash and jump out when it reached lofty valuations you would say it was very predictable
New contributor
1
At the same time, while the general behavior of the market is fairly predictable, the timing of it (for instance, when exactly the bottom of the crash has actually been reached) is not.
– Michael
12 hours ago
add a comment
|
I'm not sure why you think it is unpredictable. Good companies do well bad companies do poorly. Virtually all companies will fall when the market is overpriced and wall Street finds a reason to offload. Virtually all companies with solid earnings will rise when the market is undervalued. You see the market is very predictable when it reaches obvious valuations, both over and under. The reason you say it is unpredictable is because you are entering and exiting too frequently. If all you did was jump in at the bottom of a crash and jump out when it reached lofty valuations you would say it was very predictable
New contributor
I'm not sure why you think it is unpredictable. Good companies do well bad companies do poorly. Virtually all companies will fall when the market is overpriced and wall Street finds a reason to offload. Virtually all companies with solid earnings will rise when the market is undervalued. You see the market is very predictable when it reaches obvious valuations, both over and under. The reason you say it is unpredictable is because you are entering and exiting too frequently. If all you did was jump in at the bottom of a crash and jump out when it reached lofty valuations you would say it was very predictable
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
user2127user2127
111 bronze badge
111 bronze badge
New contributor
New contributor
1
At the same time, while the general behavior of the market is fairly predictable, the timing of it (for instance, when exactly the bottom of the crash has actually been reached) is not.
– Michael
12 hours ago
add a comment
|
1
At the same time, while the general behavior of the market is fairly predictable, the timing of it (for instance, when exactly the bottom of the crash has actually been reached) is not.
– Michael
12 hours ago
1
1
At the same time, while the general behavior of the market is fairly predictable, the timing of it (for instance, when exactly the bottom of the crash has actually been reached) is not.
– Michael
12 hours ago
At the same time, while the general behavior of the market is fairly predictable, the timing of it (for instance, when exactly the bottom of the crash has actually been reached) is not.
– Michael
12 hours ago
add a comment
|
The elephant in the room missing in the other answers is the irrationality inherent in stock (and other) markets.
Sure enough: There are many measurable, rational, "real" things influencing stock value. The monetary value of a company, how we expect the market for their products to develop, how expensive the stock is compared to the company's earnings, capital cost etc.
But one of the most influential reasons to buy or sell stock — driving its value up and down — is simply that we expect that stock to rise or fall in value. Speculation is as old as the markets.
The feedback loop which is thus established is pretty obvious: Part of the demand for stock has no discernible root in physical or financial reality; instead, it is driven by what other people think, which in turn is strongly influenced by that very stock value development.
This is how bubbles expand and burst, with oscillations that are orders of magnitude larger than the effects of the actual tangible operations of a company. Such feedback loops are non-linear and correspondingly hard to predict, and predicting them involves psychology more than economics. Some people do that better than others; you may be interested in Michael Lewis' The Big Short, specifically the story of Michael Burry2, or examine the point in time when Warren Buffet started buying again in 2008 while everybody else thought the world was going to end.1
My impression is that it is better for one's nerves to buy an index paper and stick with it ;-).
1 Finding the right point in time is like playing chicken which probably already the Neanderthals did with mammoths: If you are early, you are uncool; if you hit the perfect spot you are cool and get the girl; if you are late you are dead. And past successes are at best a weak indicator for the future.
2 Although truth be told, Michael Burry's shorting of CDOs was based on hard economics — he was about the only one reading the legally required fine print — and not psychology. He defied speculation arguing that eventually the underlying economic reality would put an end to it. He was right, in the end.
add a comment
|
The elephant in the room missing in the other answers is the irrationality inherent in stock (and other) markets.
Sure enough: There are many measurable, rational, "real" things influencing stock value. The monetary value of a company, how we expect the market for their products to develop, how expensive the stock is compared to the company's earnings, capital cost etc.
But one of the most influential reasons to buy or sell stock — driving its value up and down — is simply that we expect that stock to rise or fall in value. Speculation is as old as the markets.
The feedback loop which is thus established is pretty obvious: Part of the demand for stock has no discernible root in physical or financial reality; instead, it is driven by what other people think, which in turn is strongly influenced by that very stock value development.
This is how bubbles expand and burst, with oscillations that are orders of magnitude larger than the effects of the actual tangible operations of a company. Such feedback loops are non-linear and correspondingly hard to predict, and predicting them involves psychology more than economics. Some people do that better than others; you may be interested in Michael Lewis' The Big Short, specifically the story of Michael Burry2, or examine the point in time when Warren Buffet started buying again in 2008 while everybody else thought the world was going to end.1
My impression is that it is better for one's nerves to buy an index paper and stick with it ;-).
1 Finding the right point in time is like playing chicken which probably already the Neanderthals did with mammoths: If you are early, you are uncool; if you hit the perfect spot you are cool and get the girl; if you are late you are dead. And past successes are at best a weak indicator for the future.
2 Although truth be told, Michael Burry's shorting of CDOs was based on hard economics — he was about the only one reading the legally required fine print — and not psychology. He defied speculation arguing that eventually the underlying economic reality would put an end to it. He was right, in the end.
add a comment
|
The elephant in the room missing in the other answers is the irrationality inherent in stock (and other) markets.
Sure enough: There are many measurable, rational, "real" things influencing stock value. The monetary value of a company, how we expect the market for their products to develop, how expensive the stock is compared to the company's earnings, capital cost etc.
But one of the most influential reasons to buy or sell stock — driving its value up and down — is simply that we expect that stock to rise or fall in value. Speculation is as old as the markets.
The feedback loop which is thus established is pretty obvious: Part of the demand for stock has no discernible root in physical or financial reality; instead, it is driven by what other people think, which in turn is strongly influenced by that very stock value development.
This is how bubbles expand and burst, with oscillations that are orders of magnitude larger than the effects of the actual tangible operations of a company. Such feedback loops are non-linear and correspondingly hard to predict, and predicting them involves psychology more than economics. Some people do that better than others; you may be interested in Michael Lewis' The Big Short, specifically the story of Michael Burry2, or examine the point in time when Warren Buffet started buying again in 2008 while everybody else thought the world was going to end.1
My impression is that it is better for one's nerves to buy an index paper and stick with it ;-).
1 Finding the right point in time is like playing chicken which probably already the Neanderthals did with mammoths: If you are early, you are uncool; if you hit the perfect spot you are cool and get the girl; if you are late you are dead. And past successes are at best a weak indicator for the future.
2 Although truth be told, Michael Burry's shorting of CDOs was based on hard economics — he was about the only one reading the legally required fine print — and not psychology. He defied speculation arguing that eventually the underlying economic reality would put an end to it. He was right, in the end.
The elephant in the room missing in the other answers is the irrationality inherent in stock (and other) markets.
Sure enough: There are many measurable, rational, "real" things influencing stock value. The monetary value of a company, how we expect the market for their products to develop, how expensive the stock is compared to the company's earnings, capital cost etc.
But one of the most influential reasons to buy or sell stock — driving its value up and down — is simply that we expect that stock to rise or fall in value. Speculation is as old as the markets.
The feedback loop which is thus established is pretty obvious: Part of the demand for stock has no discernible root in physical or financial reality; instead, it is driven by what other people think, which in turn is strongly influenced by that very stock value development.
This is how bubbles expand and burst, with oscillations that are orders of magnitude larger than the effects of the actual tangible operations of a company. Such feedback loops are non-linear and correspondingly hard to predict, and predicting them involves psychology more than economics. Some people do that better than others; you may be interested in Michael Lewis' The Big Short, specifically the story of Michael Burry2, or examine the point in time when Warren Buffet started buying again in 2008 while everybody else thought the world was going to end.1
My impression is that it is better for one's nerves to buy an index paper and stick with it ;-).
1 Finding the right point in time is like playing chicken which probably already the Neanderthals did with mammoths: If you are early, you are uncool; if you hit the perfect spot you are cool and get the girl; if you are late you are dead. And past successes are at best a weak indicator for the future.
2 Although truth be told, Michael Burry's shorting of CDOs was based on hard economics — he was about the only one reading the legally required fine print — and not psychology. He defied speculation arguing that eventually the underlying economic reality would put an end to it. He was right, in the end.
edited 14 hours ago
answered 14 hours ago
Peter A. SchneiderPeter A. Schneider
2571 silver badge5 bronze badges
2571 silver badge5 bronze badges
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Three reasons:
(a) thin margins
Companies sell a product for price P, and buy the stuff/services needed to build the product for price 0.9P. The profit is 0.1P, rather thin. If for some reason customers' willingness to pay decreases by 10%, the whole profit is lost. Thus, in times when economic conditions are not optimal, the company cannot pay dividend. The only reason people invest in stocks is in fact it, namely the dividend. (Some stocks don't pay dividend but their value is based on the expectation that someday they could start paying dividend. Note that dividends are equivalent to share buybacks, so if a company is buying back its shares, it's effectively paying dividend.)
(b) supply and demand
Prices do vary based on supply and demand of savings instruments. At times when saving money into stocks is trendy, stocks are expensive. At times when spending all of your money is trendy, stocks are cheap. For example, during a recession a huge number of people want to access their savings, driving down prices. If you are countercyclical, you will find that during a recession, you have a huge amount of good investment opportunities at ridiculously low prices.
(c) liquidity
Stock market is actually a safer investment than e.g. the housing market. See for example this: http://digitalarchive.maastrichtuniversity.nl/fedora/get/guid:cda347a3-7fdf-426e-99a4-1a2c30717764/ASSET1 (links seems to be rather slow as I'm writing this)
In this file, it is explained how house prices have gone both up and down. The maximum decrease was 80%. It's about the same than stocks during a very large depression. However, with stocks it's easy to diversify whereas most people have the money to purchase only 1 or perhaps 2 houses. So, due to lack of diversification it generally doesn't make sense to invest money into housing market but rather invest it into stock market.
Why people do think stocks are unpredictable and houses are predictable, then? Because stock market is liquid. The 80% crash in real house prices happened over a period of over 35 years between 1778-1779 and 1814-1815. Stocks could crash in few days or less.
Oh how I like the unexplained downvotes.
– juhist
yesterday
Join the club. Keep in mind, a member doesn’t need any reason to vote either up or down. I upvoted, as your answer addresses the stone in the pond effect pretty well. I.e. any unknown event can cause a ripple, in one company or entire market.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
5
The only reason why people invest in stocks is the dividends?
– mhoran_psprep
yesterday
@mhoran_psprep Yes. The value of a stock is the net present value of all future cash dividends (and dividend equivalents like buybacks, which are equivalent to dividends). A non-dividend-paying stock like Berkshire Hathaway has value because someday, let's say in 100 years, it will have to start paying dividend. There is no Greater Fool, so don't believe in the Greater Fool Theory!
– juhist
12 hours ago
The Louisiana Purchase (1803) nearly doubled the available land, no doubt contributing to the decline in real estate values. Ironically, the person who was behind it personally suffered a great deal because of it.
– Michael
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Three reasons:
(a) thin margins
Companies sell a product for price P, and buy the stuff/services needed to build the product for price 0.9P. The profit is 0.1P, rather thin. If for some reason customers' willingness to pay decreases by 10%, the whole profit is lost. Thus, in times when economic conditions are not optimal, the company cannot pay dividend. The only reason people invest in stocks is in fact it, namely the dividend. (Some stocks don't pay dividend but their value is based on the expectation that someday they could start paying dividend. Note that dividends are equivalent to share buybacks, so if a company is buying back its shares, it's effectively paying dividend.)
(b) supply and demand
Prices do vary based on supply and demand of savings instruments. At times when saving money into stocks is trendy, stocks are expensive. At times when spending all of your money is trendy, stocks are cheap. For example, during a recession a huge number of people want to access their savings, driving down prices. If you are countercyclical, you will find that during a recession, you have a huge amount of good investment opportunities at ridiculously low prices.
(c) liquidity
Stock market is actually a safer investment than e.g. the housing market. See for example this: http://digitalarchive.maastrichtuniversity.nl/fedora/get/guid:cda347a3-7fdf-426e-99a4-1a2c30717764/ASSET1 (links seems to be rather slow as I'm writing this)
In this file, it is explained how house prices have gone both up and down. The maximum decrease was 80%. It's about the same than stocks during a very large depression. However, with stocks it's easy to diversify whereas most people have the money to purchase only 1 or perhaps 2 houses. So, due to lack of diversification it generally doesn't make sense to invest money into housing market but rather invest it into stock market.
Why people do think stocks are unpredictable and houses are predictable, then? Because stock market is liquid. The 80% crash in real house prices happened over a period of over 35 years between 1778-1779 and 1814-1815. Stocks could crash in few days or less.
Oh how I like the unexplained downvotes.
– juhist
yesterday
Join the club. Keep in mind, a member doesn’t need any reason to vote either up or down. I upvoted, as your answer addresses the stone in the pond effect pretty well. I.e. any unknown event can cause a ripple, in one company or entire market.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
5
The only reason why people invest in stocks is the dividends?
– mhoran_psprep
yesterday
@mhoran_psprep Yes. The value of a stock is the net present value of all future cash dividends (and dividend equivalents like buybacks, which are equivalent to dividends). A non-dividend-paying stock like Berkshire Hathaway has value because someday, let's say in 100 years, it will have to start paying dividend. There is no Greater Fool, so don't believe in the Greater Fool Theory!
– juhist
12 hours ago
The Louisiana Purchase (1803) nearly doubled the available land, no doubt contributing to the decline in real estate values. Ironically, the person who was behind it personally suffered a great deal because of it.
– Michael
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Three reasons:
(a) thin margins
Companies sell a product for price P, and buy the stuff/services needed to build the product for price 0.9P. The profit is 0.1P, rather thin. If for some reason customers' willingness to pay decreases by 10%, the whole profit is lost. Thus, in times when economic conditions are not optimal, the company cannot pay dividend. The only reason people invest in stocks is in fact it, namely the dividend. (Some stocks don't pay dividend but their value is based on the expectation that someday they could start paying dividend. Note that dividends are equivalent to share buybacks, so if a company is buying back its shares, it's effectively paying dividend.)
(b) supply and demand
Prices do vary based on supply and demand of savings instruments. At times when saving money into stocks is trendy, stocks are expensive. At times when spending all of your money is trendy, stocks are cheap. For example, during a recession a huge number of people want to access their savings, driving down prices. If you are countercyclical, you will find that during a recession, you have a huge amount of good investment opportunities at ridiculously low prices.
(c) liquidity
Stock market is actually a safer investment than e.g. the housing market. See for example this: http://digitalarchive.maastrichtuniversity.nl/fedora/get/guid:cda347a3-7fdf-426e-99a4-1a2c30717764/ASSET1 (links seems to be rather slow as I'm writing this)
In this file, it is explained how house prices have gone both up and down. The maximum decrease was 80%. It's about the same than stocks during a very large depression. However, with stocks it's easy to diversify whereas most people have the money to purchase only 1 or perhaps 2 houses. So, due to lack of diversification it generally doesn't make sense to invest money into housing market but rather invest it into stock market.
Why people do think stocks are unpredictable and houses are predictable, then? Because stock market is liquid. The 80% crash in real house prices happened over a period of over 35 years between 1778-1779 and 1814-1815. Stocks could crash in few days or less.
Three reasons:
(a) thin margins
Companies sell a product for price P, and buy the stuff/services needed to build the product for price 0.9P. The profit is 0.1P, rather thin. If for some reason customers' willingness to pay decreases by 10%, the whole profit is lost. Thus, in times when economic conditions are not optimal, the company cannot pay dividend. The only reason people invest in stocks is in fact it, namely the dividend. (Some stocks don't pay dividend but their value is based on the expectation that someday they could start paying dividend. Note that dividends are equivalent to share buybacks, so if a company is buying back its shares, it's effectively paying dividend.)
(b) supply and demand
Prices do vary based on supply and demand of savings instruments. At times when saving money into stocks is trendy, stocks are expensive. At times when spending all of your money is trendy, stocks are cheap. For example, during a recession a huge number of people want to access their savings, driving down prices. If you are countercyclical, you will find that during a recession, you have a huge amount of good investment opportunities at ridiculously low prices.
(c) liquidity
Stock market is actually a safer investment than e.g. the housing market. See for example this: http://digitalarchive.maastrichtuniversity.nl/fedora/get/guid:cda347a3-7fdf-426e-99a4-1a2c30717764/ASSET1 (links seems to be rather slow as I'm writing this)
In this file, it is explained how house prices have gone both up and down. The maximum decrease was 80%. It's about the same than stocks during a very large depression. However, with stocks it's easy to diversify whereas most people have the money to purchase only 1 or perhaps 2 houses. So, due to lack of diversification it generally doesn't make sense to invest money into housing market but rather invest it into stock market.
Why people do think stocks are unpredictable and houses are predictable, then? Because stock market is liquid. The 80% crash in real house prices happened over a period of over 35 years between 1778-1779 and 1814-1815. Stocks could crash in few days or less.
answered yesterday
juhistjuhist
1,9625 silver badges13 bronze badges
1,9625 silver badges13 bronze badges
Oh how I like the unexplained downvotes.
– juhist
yesterday
Join the club. Keep in mind, a member doesn’t need any reason to vote either up or down. I upvoted, as your answer addresses the stone in the pond effect pretty well. I.e. any unknown event can cause a ripple, in one company or entire market.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
5
The only reason why people invest in stocks is the dividends?
– mhoran_psprep
yesterday
@mhoran_psprep Yes. The value of a stock is the net present value of all future cash dividends (and dividend equivalents like buybacks, which are equivalent to dividends). A non-dividend-paying stock like Berkshire Hathaway has value because someday, let's say in 100 years, it will have to start paying dividend. There is no Greater Fool, so don't believe in the Greater Fool Theory!
– juhist
12 hours ago
The Louisiana Purchase (1803) nearly doubled the available land, no doubt contributing to the decline in real estate values. Ironically, the person who was behind it personally suffered a great deal because of it.
– Michael
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Oh how I like the unexplained downvotes.
– juhist
yesterday
Join the club. Keep in mind, a member doesn’t need any reason to vote either up or down. I upvoted, as your answer addresses the stone in the pond effect pretty well. I.e. any unknown event can cause a ripple, in one company or entire market.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
5
The only reason why people invest in stocks is the dividends?
– mhoran_psprep
yesterday
@mhoran_psprep Yes. The value of a stock is the net present value of all future cash dividends (and dividend equivalents like buybacks, which are equivalent to dividends). A non-dividend-paying stock like Berkshire Hathaway has value because someday, let's say in 100 years, it will have to start paying dividend. There is no Greater Fool, so don't believe in the Greater Fool Theory!
– juhist
12 hours ago
The Louisiana Purchase (1803) nearly doubled the available land, no doubt contributing to the decline in real estate values. Ironically, the person who was behind it personally suffered a great deal because of it.
– Michael
12 hours ago
Oh how I like the unexplained downvotes.
– juhist
yesterday
Oh how I like the unexplained downvotes.
– juhist
yesterday
Join the club. Keep in mind, a member doesn’t need any reason to vote either up or down. I upvoted, as your answer addresses the stone in the pond effect pretty well. I.e. any unknown event can cause a ripple, in one company or entire market.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
Join the club. Keep in mind, a member doesn’t need any reason to vote either up or down. I upvoted, as your answer addresses the stone in the pond effect pretty well. I.e. any unknown event can cause a ripple, in one company or entire market.
– JoeTaxpayer♦
yesterday
5
5
The only reason why people invest in stocks is the dividends?
– mhoran_psprep
yesterday
The only reason why people invest in stocks is the dividends?
– mhoran_psprep
yesterday
@mhoran_psprep Yes. The value of a stock is the net present value of all future cash dividends (and dividend equivalents like buybacks, which are equivalent to dividends). A non-dividend-paying stock like Berkshire Hathaway has value because someday, let's say in 100 years, it will have to start paying dividend. There is no Greater Fool, so don't believe in the Greater Fool Theory!
– juhist
12 hours ago
@mhoran_psprep Yes. The value of a stock is the net present value of all future cash dividends (and dividend equivalents like buybacks, which are equivalent to dividends). A non-dividend-paying stock like Berkshire Hathaway has value because someday, let's say in 100 years, it will have to start paying dividend. There is no Greater Fool, so don't believe in the Greater Fool Theory!
– juhist
12 hours ago
The Louisiana Purchase (1803) nearly doubled the available land, no doubt contributing to the decline in real estate values. Ironically, the person who was behind it personally suffered a great deal because of it.
– Michael
12 hours ago
The Louisiana Purchase (1803) nearly doubled the available land, no doubt contributing to the decline in real estate values. Ironically, the person who was behind it personally suffered a great deal because of it.
– Michael
12 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
Stocks are, in essence, just a commodity to be bought and sold. And that means you have a price.
A price is simply a value we assign something (and we tend to go based on someone being willing to pay said price, not the pure opinion of the previous owner). Prices can be volatile. Milk might cost $3 per gallon, but what if some disease wipes out half the cows that make the milk? The price of milk goes up. Is there any way to predict that? And that's assuming we only have one factor driving the price to change.
Prices contain too much information to process meaningfully
Why prices are a mystery isn’t a mystery. The why of prices — or at least all the whys of prices — are simply unknowable. Sure, you might be able to know why person X wants $28.99 for his vintage Batman talking alarm clock while another person wants $80.99 for the same masterpiece, but you can’t know all the reasons why it originally sold for $9.99. Once you make your peace with that fact, the mystery ceases being mysterious.
What I think is fascinating is that prices aren’t unique. We think they are a category unto themselves. A price isn’t like anything else, right? Well, wrong — maybe. If prices are simply the agglomeration of disparate and complex information boiled down to a number, can’t other things be agglomerations of disparate and complex information boiled down to something else?
Anyway, the point I’m getting at is that there’s nothing — nothing — that we say, do, own, make, or believe that isn’t brimming with all of the sorts of information that go into a price.
The stock market is driven by a myriad of forces and interests. I have money in there for my retirement. Warren Buffet has money in there make money for other people. John Doe has money in there because he likes owning a certain brand of stock. Different goals. Maybe Warren Buffet dumps his stock in Company X, which drives the price down, while John hangs on to his no matter the price. Or maybe a bug in stock trading software causes havoc
When the market opened at 9:30 AM people quickly knew something was wrong. By 9:31 AM it was evident to many people on Wall Street that something serious was happening. The market was being flooded with orders out of the ordinary for regular trading volumes on certain stocks. By 9:32 AM many people on Wall Street were wondering why it hadn’t stopped. This was an eternity in high-speed trading terms. Why hadn’t someone hit the kill-switch on whatever system was doing this? As it turns out there was no kill switch. During the first 45-minutes of trading Knight’s executions constituted more than 50% of the trading volume, driving certain stocks up over 10% of their value. As a result other stocks decreased in value in response to the erroneous trades.
TL;DR
Stocks are based on prices (what people are willing to pay for them). Prices are based on too much information to know why they are priced the way they are at any given moment. Stocks are based on even more information than most commodities.
add a comment
|
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
Stocks are, in essence, just a commodity to be bought and sold. And that means you have a price.
A price is simply a value we assign something (and we tend to go based on someone being willing to pay said price, not the pure opinion of the previous owner). Prices can be volatile. Milk might cost $3 per gallon, but what if some disease wipes out half the cows that make the milk? The price of milk goes up. Is there any way to predict that? And that's assuming we only have one factor driving the price to change.
Prices contain too much information to process meaningfully
Why prices are a mystery isn’t a mystery. The why of prices — or at least all the whys of prices — are simply unknowable. Sure, you might be able to know why person X wants $28.99 for his vintage Batman talking alarm clock while another person wants $80.99 for the same masterpiece, but you can’t know all the reasons why it originally sold for $9.99. Once you make your peace with that fact, the mystery ceases being mysterious.
What I think is fascinating is that prices aren’t unique. We think they are a category unto themselves. A price isn’t like anything else, right? Well, wrong — maybe. If prices are simply the agglomeration of disparate and complex information boiled down to a number, can’t other things be agglomerations of disparate and complex information boiled down to something else?
Anyway, the point I’m getting at is that there’s nothing — nothing — that we say, do, own, make, or believe that isn’t brimming with all of the sorts of information that go into a price.
The stock market is driven by a myriad of forces and interests. I have money in there for my retirement. Warren Buffet has money in there make money for other people. John Doe has money in there because he likes owning a certain brand of stock. Different goals. Maybe Warren Buffet dumps his stock in Company X, which drives the price down, while John hangs on to his no matter the price. Or maybe a bug in stock trading software causes havoc
When the market opened at 9:30 AM people quickly knew something was wrong. By 9:31 AM it was evident to many people on Wall Street that something serious was happening. The market was being flooded with orders out of the ordinary for regular trading volumes on certain stocks. By 9:32 AM many people on Wall Street were wondering why it hadn’t stopped. This was an eternity in high-speed trading terms. Why hadn’t someone hit the kill-switch on whatever system was doing this? As it turns out there was no kill switch. During the first 45-minutes of trading Knight’s executions constituted more than 50% of the trading volume, driving certain stocks up over 10% of their value. As a result other stocks decreased in value in response to the erroneous trades.
TL;DR
Stocks are based on prices (what people are willing to pay for them). Prices are based on too much information to know why they are priced the way they are at any given moment. Stocks are based on even more information than most commodities.
add a comment
|
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
Stocks are, in essence, just a commodity to be bought and sold. And that means you have a price.
A price is simply a value we assign something (and we tend to go based on someone being willing to pay said price, not the pure opinion of the previous owner). Prices can be volatile. Milk might cost $3 per gallon, but what if some disease wipes out half the cows that make the milk? The price of milk goes up. Is there any way to predict that? And that's assuming we only have one factor driving the price to change.
Prices contain too much information to process meaningfully
Why prices are a mystery isn’t a mystery. The why of prices — or at least all the whys of prices — are simply unknowable. Sure, you might be able to know why person X wants $28.99 for his vintage Batman talking alarm clock while another person wants $80.99 for the same masterpiece, but you can’t know all the reasons why it originally sold for $9.99. Once you make your peace with that fact, the mystery ceases being mysterious.
What I think is fascinating is that prices aren’t unique. We think they are a category unto themselves. A price isn’t like anything else, right? Well, wrong — maybe. If prices are simply the agglomeration of disparate and complex information boiled down to a number, can’t other things be agglomerations of disparate and complex information boiled down to something else?
Anyway, the point I’m getting at is that there’s nothing — nothing — that we say, do, own, make, or believe that isn’t brimming with all of the sorts of information that go into a price.
The stock market is driven by a myriad of forces and interests. I have money in there for my retirement. Warren Buffet has money in there make money for other people. John Doe has money in there because he likes owning a certain brand of stock. Different goals. Maybe Warren Buffet dumps his stock in Company X, which drives the price down, while John hangs on to his no matter the price. Or maybe a bug in stock trading software causes havoc
When the market opened at 9:30 AM people quickly knew something was wrong. By 9:31 AM it was evident to many people on Wall Street that something serious was happening. The market was being flooded with orders out of the ordinary for regular trading volumes on certain stocks. By 9:32 AM many people on Wall Street were wondering why it hadn’t stopped. This was an eternity in high-speed trading terms. Why hadn’t someone hit the kill-switch on whatever system was doing this? As it turns out there was no kill switch. During the first 45-minutes of trading Knight’s executions constituted more than 50% of the trading volume, driving certain stocks up over 10% of their value. As a result other stocks decreased in value in response to the erroneous trades.
TL;DR
Stocks are based on prices (what people are willing to pay for them). Prices are based on too much information to know why they are priced the way they are at any given moment. Stocks are based on even more information than most commodities.
So if we have a good model about how. People behave on a day to day basis, why can't this be transferred to stocks?
Stocks are, in essence, just a commodity to be bought and sold. And that means you have a price.
A price is simply a value we assign something (and we tend to go based on someone being willing to pay said price, not the pure opinion of the previous owner). Prices can be volatile. Milk might cost $3 per gallon, but what if some disease wipes out half the cows that make the milk? The price of milk goes up. Is there any way to predict that? And that's assuming we only have one factor driving the price to change.
Prices contain too much information to process meaningfully
Why prices are a mystery isn’t a mystery. The why of prices — or at least all the whys of prices — are simply unknowable. Sure, you might be able to know why person X wants $28.99 for his vintage Batman talking alarm clock while another person wants $80.99 for the same masterpiece, but you can’t know all the reasons why it originally sold for $9.99. Once you make your peace with that fact, the mystery ceases being mysterious.
What I think is fascinating is that prices aren’t unique. We think they are a category unto themselves. A price isn’t like anything else, right? Well, wrong — maybe. If prices are simply the agglomeration of disparate and complex information boiled down to a number, can’t other things be agglomerations of disparate and complex information boiled down to something else?
Anyway, the point I’m getting at is that there’s nothing — nothing — that we say, do, own, make, or believe that isn’t brimming with all of the sorts of information that go into a price.
The stock market is driven by a myriad of forces and interests. I have money in there for my retirement. Warren Buffet has money in there make money for other people. John Doe has money in there because he likes owning a certain brand of stock. Different goals. Maybe Warren Buffet dumps his stock in Company X, which drives the price down, while John hangs on to his no matter the price. Or maybe a bug in stock trading software causes havoc
When the market opened at 9:30 AM people quickly knew something was wrong. By 9:31 AM it was evident to many people on Wall Street that something serious was happening. The market was being flooded with orders out of the ordinary for regular trading volumes on certain stocks. By 9:32 AM many people on Wall Street were wondering why it hadn’t stopped. This was an eternity in high-speed trading terms. Why hadn’t someone hit the kill-switch on whatever system was doing this? As it turns out there was no kill switch. During the first 45-minutes of trading Knight’s executions constituted more than 50% of the trading volume, driving certain stocks up over 10% of their value. As a result other stocks decreased in value in response to the erroneous trades.
TL;DR
Stocks are based on prices (what people are willing to pay for them). Prices are based on too much information to know why they are priced the way they are at any given moment. Stocks are based on even more information than most commodities.
answered 13 hours ago
MachavityMachavity
32210 bronze badges
32210 bronze badges
add a comment
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add a comment
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There are two types of prediction problems typically.
The level 1 prediction models are for things like weather - one could predict something, wait and observe, and then correct the error for next prediction. The key aspect is the fact whether it would or would not rain on a certain day is not dependent, i.e., it does not change, due to the prediction (that it is going to rain, or it is not going to rain).
However level 2 predictions are harder - which is precisely the stock market. Even if one develops an excellent model that predicts how the stock market is going to behave, the moment somebody actually starts using the model to buy and sell stocks - the market "sees" the increased buying/selling of a certain stock, and corrects itself appropriately. Soon this excellent model becomes obsolete.
And the duration for which this excellent model predicted the stock behavior correctly could be really small, that its short term success is pretty much indistinguishable from noise.
New contributor
add a comment
|
There are two types of prediction problems typically.
The level 1 prediction models are for things like weather - one could predict something, wait and observe, and then correct the error for next prediction. The key aspect is the fact whether it would or would not rain on a certain day is not dependent, i.e., it does not change, due to the prediction (that it is going to rain, or it is not going to rain).
However level 2 predictions are harder - which is precisely the stock market. Even if one develops an excellent model that predicts how the stock market is going to behave, the moment somebody actually starts using the model to buy and sell stocks - the market "sees" the increased buying/selling of a certain stock, and corrects itself appropriately. Soon this excellent model becomes obsolete.
And the duration for which this excellent model predicted the stock behavior correctly could be really small, that its short term success is pretty much indistinguishable from noise.
New contributor
add a comment
|
There are two types of prediction problems typically.
The level 1 prediction models are for things like weather - one could predict something, wait and observe, and then correct the error for next prediction. The key aspect is the fact whether it would or would not rain on a certain day is not dependent, i.e., it does not change, due to the prediction (that it is going to rain, or it is not going to rain).
However level 2 predictions are harder - which is precisely the stock market. Even if one develops an excellent model that predicts how the stock market is going to behave, the moment somebody actually starts using the model to buy and sell stocks - the market "sees" the increased buying/selling of a certain stock, and corrects itself appropriately. Soon this excellent model becomes obsolete.
And the duration for which this excellent model predicted the stock behavior correctly could be really small, that its short term success is pretty much indistinguishable from noise.
New contributor
There are two types of prediction problems typically.
The level 1 prediction models are for things like weather - one could predict something, wait and observe, and then correct the error for next prediction. The key aspect is the fact whether it would or would not rain on a certain day is not dependent, i.e., it does not change, due to the prediction (that it is going to rain, or it is not going to rain).
However level 2 predictions are harder - which is precisely the stock market. Even if one develops an excellent model that predicts how the stock market is going to behave, the moment somebody actually starts using the model to buy and sell stocks - the market "sees" the increased buying/selling of a certain stock, and corrects itself appropriately. Soon this excellent model becomes obsolete.
And the duration for which this excellent model predicted the stock behavior correctly could be really small, that its short term success is pretty much indistinguishable from noise.
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answered 13 hours ago
SriramSriram
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A term that has been used to describe the stock market is anti-inductive. See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/h24JGbmweNpWZfBkM/markets-are-anti-inductive and
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/11/the-phatic-and-the-anti-inductive/ . Our knowledge of a planet's orbit doesn't affect it. So we can learn more about an orbit, and then the orbit will be easier to predict. But with the market, learning about it changes its behavior. Whenever we learn more about the market, ;people act on that information, changing the market. So the more people work on trying to understand the market, the more people are affecting the market, and the harder it is to understand the market. Unlike with predicting planet's orbits, when you predict the market, you have to include the behavior of people, and people will be reacting to your analysis of them market. So your predictions have to predict the actions of people reacting to analysis that predict the behavior of people reacting to analysis that predicts ... and so on.If one person happens to be better than everyone else at analyzing the market, then they might be successful in predicting it. But people in general can't predict the market, because the average person, by definition, isn't any better than any other average person, so if one average person can figure out that stock will go up, then every other average person can figure that out too and bid the price up. Stock market fluctuations represent the unpredicted parts of the economy. If they were predicted, then they would have already been included in the price. We can't predict market fluctuations because the fluctuations are by definition what isn't predicted.
Oh hey a less wrong link. While this summary is true I have a hard time believing it's the primary variable. I have reasonably certain knowledge that the equations that govern the market resist curve-fitting so even given the indicative form you would have a hard time profiting from it.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
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A term that has been used to describe the stock market is anti-inductive. See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/h24JGbmweNpWZfBkM/markets-are-anti-inductive and
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/11/the-phatic-and-the-anti-inductive/ . Our knowledge of a planet's orbit doesn't affect it. So we can learn more about an orbit, and then the orbit will be easier to predict. But with the market, learning about it changes its behavior. Whenever we learn more about the market, ;people act on that information, changing the market. So the more people work on trying to understand the market, the more people are affecting the market, and the harder it is to understand the market. Unlike with predicting planet's orbits, when you predict the market, you have to include the behavior of people, and people will be reacting to your analysis of them market. So your predictions have to predict the actions of people reacting to analysis that predict the behavior of people reacting to analysis that predicts ... and so on.If one person happens to be better than everyone else at analyzing the market, then they might be successful in predicting it. But people in general can't predict the market, because the average person, by definition, isn't any better than any other average person, so if one average person can figure out that stock will go up, then every other average person can figure that out too and bid the price up. Stock market fluctuations represent the unpredicted parts of the economy. If they were predicted, then they would have already been included in the price. We can't predict market fluctuations because the fluctuations are by definition what isn't predicted.
Oh hey a less wrong link. While this summary is true I have a hard time believing it's the primary variable. I have reasonably certain knowledge that the equations that govern the market resist curve-fitting so even given the indicative form you would have a hard time profiting from it.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
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A term that has been used to describe the stock market is anti-inductive. See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/h24JGbmweNpWZfBkM/markets-are-anti-inductive and
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/11/the-phatic-and-the-anti-inductive/ . Our knowledge of a planet's orbit doesn't affect it. So we can learn more about an orbit, and then the orbit will be easier to predict. But with the market, learning about it changes its behavior. Whenever we learn more about the market, ;people act on that information, changing the market. So the more people work on trying to understand the market, the more people are affecting the market, and the harder it is to understand the market. Unlike with predicting planet's orbits, when you predict the market, you have to include the behavior of people, and people will be reacting to your analysis of them market. So your predictions have to predict the actions of people reacting to analysis that predict the behavior of people reacting to analysis that predicts ... and so on.If one person happens to be better than everyone else at analyzing the market, then they might be successful in predicting it. But people in general can't predict the market, because the average person, by definition, isn't any better than any other average person, so if one average person can figure out that stock will go up, then every other average person can figure that out too and bid the price up. Stock market fluctuations represent the unpredicted parts of the economy. If they were predicted, then they would have already been included in the price. We can't predict market fluctuations because the fluctuations are by definition what isn't predicted.
A term that has been used to describe the stock market is anti-inductive. See https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/h24JGbmweNpWZfBkM/markets-are-anti-inductive and
https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/01/11/the-phatic-and-the-anti-inductive/ . Our knowledge of a planet's orbit doesn't affect it. So we can learn more about an orbit, and then the orbit will be easier to predict. But with the market, learning about it changes its behavior. Whenever we learn more about the market, ;people act on that information, changing the market. So the more people work on trying to understand the market, the more people are affecting the market, and the harder it is to understand the market. Unlike with predicting planet's orbits, when you predict the market, you have to include the behavior of people, and people will be reacting to your analysis of them market. So your predictions have to predict the actions of people reacting to analysis that predict the behavior of people reacting to analysis that predicts ... and so on.If one person happens to be better than everyone else at analyzing the market, then they might be successful in predicting it. But people in general can't predict the market, because the average person, by definition, isn't any better than any other average person, so if one average person can figure out that stock will go up, then every other average person can figure that out too and bid the price up. Stock market fluctuations represent the unpredicted parts of the economy. If they were predicted, then they would have already been included in the price. We can't predict market fluctuations because the fluctuations are by definition what isn't predicted.
answered 9 hours ago
AcccumulationAcccumulation
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Oh hey a less wrong link. While this summary is true I have a hard time believing it's the primary variable. I have reasonably certain knowledge that the equations that govern the market resist curve-fitting so even given the indicative form you would have a hard time profiting from it.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
Oh hey a less wrong link. While this summary is true I have a hard time believing it's the primary variable. I have reasonably certain knowledge that the equations that govern the market resist curve-fitting so even given the indicative form you would have a hard time profiting from it.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
Oh hey a less wrong link. While this summary is true I have a hard time believing it's the primary variable. I have reasonably certain knowledge that the equations that govern the market resist curve-fitting so even given the indicative form you would have a hard time profiting from it.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
Oh hey a less wrong link. While this summary is true I have a hard time believing it's the primary variable. I have reasonably certain knowledge that the equations that govern the market resist curve-fitting so even given the indicative form you would have a hard time profiting from it.
– Joshua
3 hours ago
add a comment
|
Why is the stock market so unpredictable? ...most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
If you mean overall and you mean in the long run then the US stock market is predictable.
It is like how people are predictable in large numbers - what a random person will do is not predictable.
At a US theme park (like Disney) people, when given a choice, will tend to turn right instead of left. That can be established as fact, because people study this stuff and that is what they've found.
That does not mean that you can predict whether a specific person will choose to go to the left or right at a specific place.
The stock market is the same:
A certified financial planner will likely tell you that, "If you will need the money in the next five years, you probably should not put it in the stock market."
Why would they say that?
Because if you look at mutual funds with 10+ year track records, you'll find that they have a positive return in almost all periods of five consecutive years of their history.
(four point something times out of five if I remember correctly)
TL;DR;
The stock market is very likely to go up if you are looking at period of five or more consecutive years.
What a particular stock will do is anybody's guess...
and they're all guessing differently...
and people change their guess from one day to the next...
and that is what sets the price...
which why a particular stock moves so erratically...
But... over time (measured in years)... the market goes up :-)
add a comment
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Why is the stock market so unpredictable? ...most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
If you mean overall and you mean in the long run then the US stock market is predictable.
It is like how people are predictable in large numbers - what a random person will do is not predictable.
At a US theme park (like Disney) people, when given a choice, will tend to turn right instead of left. That can be established as fact, because people study this stuff and that is what they've found.
That does not mean that you can predict whether a specific person will choose to go to the left or right at a specific place.
The stock market is the same:
A certified financial planner will likely tell you that, "If you will need the money in the next five years, you probably should not put it in the stock market."
Why would they say that?
Because if you look at mutual funds with 10+ year track records, you'll find that they have a positive return in almost all periods of five consecutive years of their history.
(four point something times out of five if I remember correctly)
TL;DR;
The stock market is very likely to go up if you are looking at period of five or more consecutive years.
What a particular stock will do is anybody's guess...
and they're all guessing differently...
and people change their guess from one day to the next...
and that is what sets the price...
which why a particular stock moves so erratically...
But... over time (measured in years)... the market goes up :-)
add a comment
|
Why is the stock market so unpredictable? ...most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
If you mean overall and you mean in the long run then the US stock market is predictable.
It is like how people are predictable in large numbers - what a random person will do is not predictable.
At a US theme park (like Disney) people, when given a choice, will tend to turn right instead of left. That can be established as fact, because people study this stuff and that is what they've found.
That does not mean that you can predict whether a specific person will choose to go to the left or right at a specific place.
The stock market is the same:
A certified financial planner will likely tell you that, "If you will need the money in the next five years, you probably should not put it in the stock market."
Why would they say that?
Because if you look at mutual funds with 10+ year track records, you'll find that they have a positive return in almost all periods of five consecutive years of their history.
(four point something times out of five if I remember correctly)
TL;DR;
The stock market is very likely to go up if you are looking at period of five or more consecutive years.
What a particular stock will do is anybody's guess...
and they're all guessing differently...
and people change their guess from one day to the next...
and that is what sets the price...
which why a particular stock moves so erratically...
But... over time (measured in years)... the market goes up :-)
Why is the stock market so unpredictable? ...most of the things we do in a day are pretty predictable.
If you mean overall and you mean in the long run then the US stock market is predictable.
It is like how people are predictable in large numbers - what a random person will do is not predictable.
At a US theme park (like Disney) people, when given a choice, will tend to turn right instead of left. That can be established as fact, because people study this stuff and that is what they've found.
That does not mean that you can predict whether a specific person will choose to go to the left or right at a specific place.
The stock market is the same:
A certified financial planner will likely tell you that, "If you will need the money in the next five years, you probably should not put it in the stock market."
Why would they say that?
Because if you look at mutual funds with 10+ year track records, you'll find that they have a positive return in almost all periods of five consecutive years of their history.
(four point something times out of five if I remember correctly)
TL;DR;
The stock market is very likely to go up if you are looking at period of five or more consecutive years.
What a particular stock will do is anybody's guess...
and they're all guessing differently...
and people change their guess from one day to the next...
and that is what sets the price...
which why a particular stock moves so erratically...
But... over time (measured in years)... the market goes up :-)
answered 7 hours ago
J. Chris ComptonJ. Chris Compton
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There are two related reasons. The first is that if today's price is equal to yesterday's prices times a reward plus an appraisal error then the resulting difference equation can be proven to be intrinsically unstable, p(t+1)=Rx(t)+e(t+1). As long as the appraisal error has finite variance centered on zero, then any Frequentist statistical estimator will have no predictive power at all.
The second reason is that if an equilibrium price exists at each moment in time and the equilibrium reward plus a shock is the true reward then the distribution of returns around the equilibrium return will be the truncated Cauchy distribution if you have factored out liquidity risks, dividend risks, merger risks, and bankruptcy risks.
The Cauchy distribution is unusual in that it cannot have an average. You can always calculate the sample average but it won't ever settle down and converge to the true center of the distribution, which for stocks is the mode.
John Cook provides a graphical example of the difference of the behavior of the sample mean of a Cauchy distribution and the mean of the normal distribution. You can find it at Cauchy versus Normal
The mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot classified the behavior of random variables as having seven classifications. The type you generally encounter in day-to-day life is proper mild randomness. Equity security returns are the seventh class of randomness, which is extreme randomness.
In fact, you can predict things in equity markets. You can only use Bayesian methods. For a variety of reasons, it can be shown that it would be profoundly unwise to use a Frequentist methodology, but most do because it is what they know.
The difficulty is that most people try to predict things using Frequentist methods of proper mild randomness rather than Bayesian methods for extreme randomness. That includes professionals.
As there is no way to use MathML in this forum but I am about to produce a resource you could use though it is intended for those with doctorates in statistics, mathematics, finance, and economics. I will try and remember to post a link to it when it is in its final form. Elements of it could be used by anyone with a basic understanding of probability and basic calculus methods.
The physicist and statistical polemicist E.T. Jaynes wrote that had the first problems in statistics involved the Cauchy distribution the trajectory of the field of statistics would have been radically different.
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There are two related reasons. The first is that if today's price is equal to yesterday's prices times a reward plus an appraisal error then the resulting difference equation can be proven to be intrinsically unstable, p(t+1)=Rx(t)+e(t+1). As long as the appraisal error has finite variance centered on zero, then any Frequentist statistical estimator will have no predictive power at all.
The second reason is that if an equilibrium price exists at each moment in time and the equilibrium reward plus a shock is the true reward then the distribution of returns around the equilibrium return will be the truncated Cauchy distribution if you have factored out liquidity risks, dividend risks, merger risks, and bankruptcy risks.
The Cauchy distribution is unusual in that it cannot have an average. You can always calculate the sample average but it won't ever settle down and converge to the true center of the distribution, which for stocks is the mode.
John Cook provides a graphical example of the difference of the behavior of the sample mean of a Cauchy distribution and the mean of the normal distribution. You can find it at Cauchy versus Normal
The mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot classified the behavior of random variables as having seven classifications. The type you generally encounter in day-to-day life is proper mild randomness. Equity security returns are the seventh class of randomness, which is extreme randomness.
In fact, you can predict things in equity markets. You can only use Bayesian methods. For a variety of reasons, it can be shown that it would be profoundly unwise to use a Frequentist methodology, but most do because it is what they know.
The difficulty is that most people try to predict things using Frequentist methods of proper mild randomness rather than Bayesian methods for extreme randomness. That includes professionals.
As there is no way to use MathML in this forum but I am about to produce a resource you could use though it is intended for those with doctorates in statistics, mathematics, finance, and economics. I will try and remember to post a link to it when it is in its final form. Elements of it could be used by anyone with a basic understanding of probability and basic calculus methods.
The physicist and statistical polemicist E.T. Jaynes wrote that had the first problems in statistics involved the Cauchy distribution the trajectory of the field of statistics would have been radically different.
add a comment
|
There are two related reasons. The first is that if today's price is equal to yesterday's prices times a reward plus an appraisal error then the resulting difference equation can be proven to be intrinsically unstable, p(t+1)=Rx(t)+e(t+1). As long as the appraisal error has finite variance centered on zero, then any Frequentist statistical estimator will have no predictive power at all.
The second reason is that if an equilibrium price exists at each moment in time and the equilibrium reward plus a shock is the true reward then the distribution of returns around the equilibrium return will be the truncated Cauchy distribution if you have factored out liquidity risks, dividend risks, merger risks, and bankruptcy risks.
The Cauchy distribution is unusual in that it cannot have an average. You can always calculate the sample average but it won't ever settle down and converge to the true center of the distribution, which for stocks is the mode.
John Cook provides a graphical example of the difference of the behavior of the sample mean of a Cauchy distribution and the mean of the normal distribution. You can find it at Cauchy versus Normal
The mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot classified the behavior of random variables as having seven classifications. The type you generally encounter in day-to-day life is proper mild randomness. Equity security returns are the seventh class of randomness, which is extreme randomness.
In fact, you can predict things in equity markets. You can only use Bayesian methods. For a variety of reasons, it can be shown that it would be profoundly unwise to use a Frequentist methodology, but most do because it is what they know.
The difficulty is that most people try to predict things using Frequentist methods of proper mild randomness rather than Bayesian methods for extreme randomness. That includes professionals.
As there is no way to use MathML in this forum but I am about to produce a resource you could use though it is intended for those with doctorates in statistics, mathematics, finance, and economics. I will try and remember to post a link to it when it is in its final form. Elements of it could be used by anyone with a basic understanding of probability and basic calculus methods.
The physicist and statistical polemicist E.T. Jaynes wrote that had the first problems in statistics involved the Cauchy distribution the trajectory of the field of statistics would have been radically different.
There are two related reasons. The first is that if today's price is equal to yesterday's prices times a reward plus an appraisal error then the resulting difference equation can be proven to be intrinsically unstable, p(t+1)=Rx(t)+e(t+1). As long as the appraisal error has finite variance centered on zero, then any Frequentist statistical estimator will have no predictive power at all.
The second reason is that if an equilibrium price exists at each moment in time and the equilibrium reward plus a shock is the true reward then the distribution of returns around the equilibrium return will be the truncated Cauchy distribution if you have factored out liquidity risks, dividend risks, merger risks, and bankruptcy risks.
The Cauchy distribution is unusual in that it cannot have an average. You can always calculate the sample average but it won't ever settle down and converge to the true center of the distribution, which for stocks is the mode.
John Cook provides a graphical example of the difference of the behavior of the sample mean of a Cauchy distribution and the mean of the normal distribution. You can find it at Cauchy versus Normal
The mathematician Benoit Mandelbrot classified the behavior of random variables as having seven classifications. The type you generally encounter in day-to-day life is proper mild randomness. Equity security returns are the seventh class of randomness, which is extreme randomness.
In fact, you can predict things in equity markets. You can only use Bayesian methods. For a variety of reasons, it can be shown that it would be profoundly unwise to use a Frequentist methodology, but most do because it is what they know.
The difficulty is that most people try to predict things using Frequentist methods of proper mild randomness rather than Bayesian methods for extreme randomness. That includes professionals.
As there is no way to use MathML in this forum but I am about to produce a resource you could use though it is intended for those with doctorates in statistics, mathematics, finance, and economics. I will try and remember to post a link to it when it is in its final form. Elements of it could be used by anyone with a basic understanding of probability and basic calculus methods.
The physicist and statistical polemicist E.T. Jaynes wrote that had the first problems in statistics involved the Cauchy distribution the trajectory of the field of statistics would have been radically different.
answered 1 hour ago
Dave HarrisDave Harris
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You seem to think that if people are predictable, then the sum of their actions with regards to the stock market should also result in something predictable. However, when a lot of independent agents interact, the sum total of their actions often display a great deal of randomness, even if each agent by itself is completely predictable. "Complex adaptive systems" is a name you can use to learn more about this. Check out Rule 30 for an example of a very simple system with behavior so random that it can be used as a random number generator.
– C. E.
yesterday
7
You are forgetting that everyone is trying to predict the market. This affects the market. And, it makes it "unpredictable". Unpredictable in quotes because just taking the performance of the market yesterday and applying that as a predictor for current day is fairly precise. So in that regards, it is about as predictable as the weather. But all the people betting on the market is affecting the market. And that is a feedback loop designed to create chaos out of order in any process, let alone one that is fairly unstable to begin with.
– Stian Yttervik
yesterday
2
You know there are people who get entire PHD's trying to answer this question right? And you want it answered here in a few paragraphs?
– Issel
yesterday
7
@C.E. Actually, usually the opposite is true: Random differences in individual behavior cancel each other out when aggregated over many individuals so that predictability improves. You have some reasoning to do involving feedback loops and non-linearity of the complex system to explain why this is not the case here.
– Peter A. Schneider
14 hours ago
1
All of the predictable parts are already subtracted from the price.
– not_a_comcast_employee
12 hours ago