What is the best linguistic term for describing the kw > p / gw > b change, and its usual companion s...
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What is the best linguistic term for describing the kw > p / gw > b change, and its usual companion s > h
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What is the best linguistic term for describing the kw > p / gw > b change, and its usual companion s > h
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Celtic, Italic, Greek and several other IE languages have a P- and a Q-variety (from kw > p and gw > b). The P-variety usually also has h for ancient s.
What would be the best linguistic term for describing this combined phenomenon? Labialization? Develarization? Lenition?
phonology terminology indo-european sound-change
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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|
show 4 more comments
Celtic, Italic, Greek and several other IE languages have a P- and a Q-variety (from kw > p and gw > b). The P-variety usually also has h for ancient s.
What would be the best linguistic term for describing this combined phenomenon? Labialization? Develarization? Lenition?
phonology terminology indo-european sound-change
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
I assume you mean "in Indo-European", since terminological practices outside of IE historical studies are not necessarily the same.
– user6726
8 hours ago
Not including s>h, the changes are assimilations (of place). Isn't that obvious? The consonants become labial before labial w.
– Greg Lee
7 hours ago
2
The two processes are unrelated. Some languages have a labiovelar > labial change, some languages have debuccalization of s, some languages have both but that doesn't mean they're one phenomenon.
– TKR
6 hours ago
1
@GregLee In the traditional view, the ancestors of all these languages had a truly labiovelar phoneme/kʷ/rather than a sequence/kw/.
– Draconis
4 hours ago
@Draconis, So? Are you saying the k can't assimilate to the w if k and w are part of a single phoneme? If so, why?
– Greg Lee
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
Celtic, Italic, Greek and several other IE languages have a P- and a Q-variety (from kw > p and gw > b). The P-variety usually also has h for ancient s.
What would be the best linguistic term for describing this combined phenomenon? Labialization? Develarization? Lenition?
phonology terminology indo-european sound-change
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Celtic, Italic, Greek and several other IE languages have a P- and a Q-variety (from kw > p and gw > b). The P-variety usually also has h for ancient s.
What would be the best linguistic term for describing this combined phenomenon? Labialization? Develarization? Lenition?
phonology terminology indo-european sound-change
phonology terminology indo-european sound-change
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
edited 8 hours ago
jknappen
12.1k23155
12.1k23155
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
asked 8 hours ago
Eduard Selleslagh-SuykensEduard Selleslagh-Suykens
161
161
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
I assume you mean "in Indo-European", since terminological practices outside of IE historical studies are not necessarily the same.
– user6726
8 hours ago
Not including s>h, the changes are assimilations (of place). Isn't that obvious? The consonants become labial before labial w.
– Greg Lee
7 hours ago
2
The two processes are unrelated. Some languages have a labiovelar > labial change, some languages have debuccalization of s, some languages have both but that doesn't mean they're one phenomenon.
– TKR
6 hours ago
1
@GregLee In the traditional view, the ancestors of all these languages had a truly labiovelar phoneme/kʷ/rather than a sequence/kw/.
– Draconis
4 hours ago
@Draconis, So? Are you saying the k can't assimilate to the w if k and w are part of a single phoneme? If so, why?
– Greg Lee
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
1
I assume you mean "in Indo-European", since terminological practices outside of IE historical studies are not necessarily the same.
– user6726
8 hours ago
Not including s>h, the changes are assimilations (of place). Isn't that obvious? The consonants become labial before labial w.
– Greg Lee
7 hours ago
2
The two processes are unrelated. Some languages have a labiovelar > labial change, some languages have debuccalization of s, some languages have both but that doesn't mean they're one phenomenon.
– TKR
6 hours ago
1
@GregLee In the traditional view, the ancestors of all these languages had a truly labiovelar phoneme/kʷ/rather than a sequence/kw/.
– Draconis
4 hours ago
@Draconis, So? Are you saying the k can't assimilate to the w if k and w are part of a single phoneme? If so, why?
– Greg Lee
3 hours ago
1
1
I assume you mean "in Indo-European", since terminological practices outside of IE historical studies are not necessarily the same.
– user6726
8 hours ago
I assume you mean "in Indo-European", since terminological practices outside of IE historical studies are not necessarily the same.
– user6726
8 hours ago
Not including s>h, the changes are assimilations (of place). Isn't that obvious? The consonants become labial before labial w.
– Greg Lee
7 hours ago
Not including s>h, the changes are assimilations (of place). Isn't that obvious? The consonants become labial before labial w.
– Greg Lee
7 hours ago
2
2
The two processes are unrelated. Some languages have a labiovelar > labial change, some languages have debuccalization of s, some languages have both but that doesn't mean they're one phenomenon.
– TKR
6 hours ago
The two processes are unrelated. Some languages have a labiovelar > labial change, some languages have debuccalization of s, some languages have both but that doesn't mean they're one phenomenon.
– TKR
6 hours ago
1
1
@GregLee In the traditional view, the ancestors of all these languages had a truly labiovelar phoneme
/kʷ/ rather than a sequence /kw/.– Draconis
4 hours ago
@GregLee In the traditional view, the ancestors of all these languages had a truly labiovelar phoneme
/kʷ/ rather than a sequence /kw/.– Draconis
4 hours ago
@Draconis, So? Are you saying the k can't assimilate to the w if k and w are part of a single phoneme? If so, why?
– Greg Lee
3 hours ago
@Draconis, So? Are you saying the k can't assimilate to the w if k and w are part of a single phoneme? If so, why?
– Greg Lee
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
The change from /s/ to /h/ is called debuccalization, from Latin bucca, "mouth". The name is generally applied to any change that turns a non-glottal sound glottal, since it's moving the articulation "out of the mouth"; another example is English /t/ → [ʔ].
The change from /kʷ/ to /p/ doesn't have a universally-accepted name in my experience; I've seen it called both labialization and develarization (since the labiovelar consonant is losing its velar closure and becoming purely labial).
I'm not aware of any real correlation between the two sound changes; I know they both happened in some varieties of Greek, but initial /s/ → /h/ was universal in Hellenic, and /kʷ/ → /p/ was less consistent; /s/ → /h/ didn't happen word-internally or finally, either. Similarly, Romanian had develarization, but not /s/ → /h/: consider Latin socium → Romanian soț, with the original /s/ intact.
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
/kʷ/ > /p/ happened in all Greek dialects, just not under the same conditions.
– TKR
4 hours ago
@TKR Fair; fixed
– Draconis
3 hours ago
"Fusion" is a more general term for the /kʷ/ > /p/ type change: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics)
– TKR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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The change from /s/ to /h/ is called debuccalization, from Latin bucca, "mouth". The name is generally applied to any change that turns a non-glottal sound glottal, since it's moving the articulation "out of the mouth"; another example is English /t/ → [ʔ].
The change from /kʷ/ to /p/ doesn't have a universally-accepted name in my experience; I've seen it called both labialization and develarization (since the labiovelar consonant is losing its velar closure and becoming purely labial).
I'm not aware of any real correlation between the two sound changes; I know they both happened in some varieties of Greek, but initial /s/ → /h/ was universal in Hellenic, and /kʷ/ → /p/ was less consistent; /s/ → /h/ didn't happen word-internally or finally, either. Similarly, Romanian had develarization, but not /s/ → /h/: consider Latin socium → Romanian soț, with the original /s/ intact.
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
/kʷ/ > /p/ happened in all Greek dialects, just not under the same conditions.
– TKR
4 hours ago
@TKR Fair; fixed
– Draconis
3 hours ago
"Fusion" is a more general term for the /kʷ/ > /p/ type change: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics)
– TKR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
The change from /s/ to /h/ is called debuccalization, from Latin bucca, "mouth". The name is generally applied to any change that turns a non-glottal sound glottal, since it's moving the articulation "out of the mouth"; another example is English /t/ → [ʔ].
The change from /kʷ/ to /p/ doesn't have a universally-accepted name in my experience; I've seen it called both labialization and develarization (since the labiovelar consonant is losing its velar closure and becoming purely labial).
I'm not aware of any real correlation between the two sound changes; I know they both happened in some varieties of Greek, but initial /s/ → /h/ was universal in Hellenic, and /kʷ/ → /p/ was less consistent; /s/ → /h/ didn't happen word-internally or finally, either. Similarly, Romanian had develarization, but not /s/ → /h/: consider Latin socium → Romanian soț, with the original /s/ intact.
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
/kʷ/ > /p/ happened in all Greek dialects, just not under the same conditions.
– TKR
4 hours ago
@TKR Fair; fixed
– Draconis
3 hours ago
"Fusion" is a more general term for the /kʷ/ > /p/ type change: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics)
– TKR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
The change from /s/ to /h/ is called debuccalization, from Latin bucca, "mouth". The name is generally applied to any change that turns a non-glottal sound glottal, since it's moving the articulation "out of the mouth"; another example is English /t/ → [ʔ].
The change from /kʷ/ to /p/ doesn't have a universally-accepted name in my experience; I've seen it called both labialization and develarization (since the labiovelar consonant is losing its velar closure and becoming purely labial).
I'm not aware of any real correlation between the two sound changes; I know they both happened in some varieties of Greek, but initial /s/ → /h/ was universal in Hellenic, and /kʷ/ → /p/ was less consistent; /s/ → /h/ didn't happen word-internally or finally, either. Similarly, Romanian had develarization, but not /s/ → /h/: consider Latin socium → Romanian soț, with the original /s/ intact.
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
The change from /s/ to /h/ is called debuccalization, from Latin bucca, "mouth". The name is generally applied to any change that turns a non-glottal sound glottal, since it's moving the articulation "out of the mouth"; another example is English /t/ → [ʔ].
The change from /kʷ/ to /p/ doesn't have a universally-accepted name in my experience; I've seen it called both labialization and develarization (since the labiovelar consonant is losing its velar closure and becoming purely labial).
I'm not aware of any real correlation between the two sound changes; I know they both happened in some varieties of Greek, but initial /s/ → /h/ was universal in Hellenic, and /kʷ/ → /p/ was less consistent; /s/ → /h/ didn't happen word-internally or finally, either. Similarly, Romanian had develarization, but not /s/ → /h/: consider Latin socium → Romanian soț, with the original /s/ intact.
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
edited 3 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
answered 4 hours ago
DraconisDraconis
14.9k12361
14.9k12361
/kʷ/ > /p/ happened in all Greek dialects, just not under the same conditions.
– TKR
4 hours ago
@TKR Fair; fixed
– Draconis
3 hours ago
"Fusion" is a more general term for the /kʷ/ > /p/ type change: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics)
– TKR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
/kʷ/ > /p/ happened in all Greek dialects, just not under the same conditions.
– TKR
4 hours ago
@TKR Fair; fixed
– Draconis
3 hours ago
"Fusion" is a more general term for the /kʷ/ > /p/ type change: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics)
– TKR
2 hours ago
/kʷ/ > /p/ happened in all Greek dialects, just not under the same conditions.
– TKR
4 hours ago
/kʷ/ > /p/ happened in all Greek dialects, just not under the same conditions.
– TKR
4 hours ago
@TKR Fair; fixed
– Draconis
3 hours ago
@TKR Fair; fixed
– Draconis
3 hours ago
"Fusion" is a more general term for the /kʷ/ > /p/ type change: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics)
– TKR
2 hours ago
"Fusion" is a more general term for the /kʷ/ > /p/ type change: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics)
– TKR
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Eduard Selleslagh-Suykens is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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1
I assume you mean "in Indo-European", since terminological practices outside of IE historical studies are not necessarily the same.
– user6726
8 hours ago
Not including s>h, the changes are assimilations (of place). Isn't that obvious? The consonants become labial before labial w.
– Greg Lee
7 hours ago
2
The two processes are unrelated. Some languages have a labiovelar > labial change, some languages have debuccalization of s, some languages have both but that doesn't mean they're one phenomenon.
– TKR
6 hours ago
1
@GregLee In the traditional view, the ancestors of all these languages had a truly labiovelar phoneme
/kʷ/rather than a sequence/kw/.– Draconis
4 hours ago
@Draconis, So? Are you saying the k can't assimilate to the w if k and w are part of a single phoneme? If so, why?
– Greg Lee
3 hours ago