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Is an acid a salt or not?


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}







3












$begingroup$


In our office, we discussed today what the exact definition of a salt is and whether an acid itself can be classified as a salt.



Our first problem was that we couldn't get a definitive definition for what exactly a salt is. Wikipedia states:




In chemistry, a salt is an ionic compound that can be formed by the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base.




Let's take, for example, carbonic acid: it is a molecule comprised of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO3-}$. We could say that this molecule forms due to the reaction of a base ($ce{HCO3-}$) and an acid ($ce{H_3O+}$):



$$ce{H3O+} + ce{HCO3-} rightarrow ce{H2CO3} + ce{H2O}$$



Thus, it seems that the acid fulfills the definition above. We are pretty sure that acids are not considered salts. So where is the error in our reasoning?










share|improve this question









New contributor



gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They use a different definition of acid.
    $endgroup$
    – Ivan Neretin
    13 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There's not satisfying def. of "salt" and I don't see it coming. Abandoning such concept would be somewhat reasonable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mithoron
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Would someone PLEASE fix the bicarbonate ion? Thanks!
    $endgroup$
    – Ed V
    1 hour ago


















3












$begingroup$


In our office, we discussed today what the exact definition of a salt is and whether an acid itself can be classified as a salt.



Our first problem was that we couldn't get a definitive definition for what exactly a salt is. Wikipedia states:




In chemistry, a salt is an ionic compound that can be formed by the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base.




Let's take, for example, carbonic acid: it is a molecule comprised of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO3-}$. We could say that this molecule forms due to the reaction of a base ($ce{HCO3-}$) and an acid ($ce{H_3O+}$):



$$ce{H3O+} + ce{HCO3-} rightarrow ce{H2CO3} + ce{H2O}$$



Thus, it seems that the acid fulfills the definition above. We are pretty sure that acids are not considered salts. So where is the error in our reasoning?










share|improve this question









New contributor



gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They use a different definition of acid.
    $endgroup$
    – Ivan Neretin
    13 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There's not satisfying def. of "salt" and I don't see it coming. Abandoning such concept would be somewhat reasonable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mithoron
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Would someone PLEASE fix the bicarbonate ion? Thanks!
    $endgroup$
    – Ed V
    1 hour ago














3












3








3





$begingroup$


In our office, we discussed today what the exact definition of a salt is and whether an acid itself can be classified as a salt.



Our first problem was that we couldn't get a definitive definition for what exactly a salt is. Wikipedia states:




In chemistry, a salt is an ionic compound that can be formed by the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base.




Let's take, for example, carbonic acid: it is a molecule comprised of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO3-}$. We could say that this molecule forms due to the reaction of a base ($ce{HCO3-}$) and an acid ($ce{H_3O+}$):



$$ce{H3O+} + ce{HCO3-} rightarrow ce{H2CO3} + ce{H2O}$$



Thus, it seems that the acid fulfills the definition above. We are pretty sure that acids are not considered salts. So where is the error in our reasoning?










share|improve this question









New contributor



gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




In our office, we discussed today what the exact definition of a salt is and whether an acid itself can be classified as a salt.



Our first problem was that we couldn't get a definitive definition for what exactly a salt is. Wikipedia states:




In chemistry, a salt is an ionic compound that can be formed by the neutralization reaction of an acid and a base.




Let's take, for example, carbonic acid: it is a molecule comprised of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO3-}$. We could say that this molecule forms due to the reaction of a base ($ce{HCO3-}$) and an acid ($ce{H_3O+}$):



$$ce{H3O+} + ce{HCO3-} rightarrow ce{H2CO3} + ce{H2O}$$



Thus, it seems that the acid fulfills the definition above. We are pretty sure that acids are not considered salts. So where is the error in our reasoning?







acid-base






share|improve this question









New contributor



gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question









New contributor



gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago









Todd Minehardt

8,9588 gold badges40 silver badges51 bronze badges




8,9588 gold badges40 silver badges51 bronze badges






New contributor



gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








asked 13 hours ago









gexicidegexicide

1223 bronze badges




1223 bronze badges




New contributor



gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




New contributor




gexicide is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They use a different definition of acid.
    $endgroup$
    – Ivan Neretin
    13 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There's not satisfying def. of "salt" and I don't see it coming. Abandoning such concept would be somewhat reasonable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mithoron
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Would someone PLEASE fix the bicarbonate ion? Thanks!
    $endgroup$
    – Ed V
    1 hour ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    They use a different definition of acid.
    $endgroup$
    – Ivan Neretin
    13 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    There's not satisfying def. of "salt" and I don't see it coming. Abandoning such concept would be somewhat reasonable.
    $endgroup$
    – Mithoron
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Would someone PLEASE fix the bicarbonate ion? Thanks!
    $endgroup$
    – Ed V
    1 hour ago








1




1




$begingroup$
They use a different definition of acid.
$endgroup$
– Ivan Neretin
13 hours ago




$begingroup$
They use a different definition of acid.
$endgroup$
– Ivan Neretin
13 hours ago












$begingroup$
There's not satisfying def. of "salt" and I don't see it coming. Abandoning such concept would be somewhat reasonable.
$endgroup$
– Mithoron
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
There's not satisfying def. of "salt" and I don't see it coming. Abandoning such concept would be somewhat reasonable.
$endgroup$
– Mithoron
6 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Would someone PLEASE fix the bicarbonate ion? Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Ed V
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Would someone PLEASE fix the bicarbonate ion? Thanks!
$endgroup$
– Ed V
1 hour ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















7












$begingroup$

It is a semantics question with an open ended discussion. If you recall the old problem "How many angels can dance on a pinhead? Medieval problem, this issue here is similar.



Basically in chemistry, all the terminology is controlled or endorsed by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC). They have a very open ended definition of a salt: "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions."



If we follow some really old chemistry texts (>1850s), yes an acid was defined as a salt of hydrogen ion, i.e., an acid is a salt whose electropositive element is hydrogen Definition of an acid.



Did this definition by a few chemists become popular? The simple answer is no. Not in a general sense.



The modern interpretation of an acid, again from IUPAC is, "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair."
If you have heard of ionic liquids, they consist of a large organic cation and an anion, this is a salt as well.



Then you have so-called acid salts, such as sodium hydrogen sulfate e.g., $ce{NaHSO4}$. Their pH is very acidic and these "salts" will neutralize bases like a typical acid.



Thus one may loosely say, that all acids may be considered as salts but not all salts are acids.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Thanks for the historic perspective, and kind of sad that the high school texts (and wikipedia) can't move on. Oh, I guess I could edit the wikipedia definition... help them move on.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I am very much disappointed by modern general chemistry texts. It turns away brightest students from chemistry. Some radical changes must be adapted.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Farooq
    12 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia has the IUPAC definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) Let's see if it sticks.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    +1 for this answer. IUPAC is the gold standard for definitions. However to me that definition leaves out two important characteristics. First a salt is a solid. Second I would add that a salt should have an appreciable solubility in water. I wouldn't expect $ce{CuS}$ for example to be classified as a "salt." Yes it has a cation and an anion, but its solubility is next to nothing. If you leave out solubility then every solid inorganic compound is a salt. // Going back to the OP's question, I would consider oxalic acid as being a salt and an acid.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    The point I'm trying to make about solubility is that a salt dissolves in water to give cations and anions. No molecular species, or at least none to any extent. So I would not consider phenol a salt. Yes you can remove a hydrogen in a basic enough solution, but the molecule doesn't "completely" dissociate into ions when added to water, so it isn't a salt even though it is a solid under ordinary conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    9 hours ago



















3












$begingroup$

It's great that you are discussing chemistry in your office! You write:




[..] carbonic acid. It is a compound of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO^3-}$




This is the error in your reasoning. There is a covalent bond between the hydrogen and the rest of the molecule. When it reacts as an acid, this bond breaks.



I like definition d) of the online MW:




any of various compounds that result from replacement of part or all of the acid hydrogen of an acid by a metal or a group acting like a metal : an ionic crystalline compound




So starting with the acid $ce{H2CO3}$ (carbonic acid), you would let it react as an acid (in water, perhaps), and replace the lost hydrogen ion by a sodium ion, giving you $ce{NaHCO3}$, sodium bicarbonate. If you isolate that as a pure solid, you get a typical salt (ionic crystals, dissolve more or less in water).



If you want to get back to your definition, you would add carbonic acid and sodium hydroxide in water. Carbonic acid would act as an acid, sodium hydroxide would act as a base, and depending on the mixing ration (stoichiometry), you would get sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate. Removing water would give you the ionic compounds.



Now you can go back to discussing how to popcount large arrays...






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Since you pointed out some mistakes in the original question, I also would like to stress that H3O+ is not a base, but it is instead an acid...
    $endgroup$
    – Pier
    3 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Good catch - I fixed it in the question @Pier
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    3 hours ago














Your Answer








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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









7












$begingroup$

It is a semantics question with an open ended discussion. If you recall the old problem "How many angels can dance on a pinhead? Medieval problem, this issue here is similar.



Basically in chemistry, all the terminology is controlled or endorsed by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC). They have a very open ended definition of a salt: "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions."



If we follow some really old chemistry texts (>1850s), yes an acid was defined as a salt of hydrogen ion, i.e., an acid is a salt whose electropositive element is hydrogen Definition of an acid.



Did this definition by a few chemists become popular? The simple answer is no. Not in a general sense.



The modern interpretation of an acid, again from IUPAC is, "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair."
If you have heard of ionic liquids, they consist of a large organic cation and an anion, this is a salt as well.



Then you have so-called acid salts, such as sodium hydrogen sulfate e.g., $ce{NaHSO4}$. Their pH is very acidic and these "salts" will neutralize bases like a typical acid.



Thus one may loosely say, that all acids may be considered as salts but not all salts are acids.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Thanks for the historic perspective, and kind of sad that the high school texts (and wikipedia) can't move on. Oh, I guess I could edit the wikipedia definition... help them move on.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I am very much disappointed by modern general chemistry texts. It turns away brightest students from chemistry. Some radical changes must be adapted.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Farooq
    12 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia has the IUPAC definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) Let's see if it sticks.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    +1 for this answer. IUPAC is the gold standard for definitions. However to me that definition leaves out two important characteristics. First a salt is a solid. Second I would add that a salt should have an appreciable solubility in water. I wouldn't expect $ce{CuS}$ for example to be classified as a "salt." Yes it has a cation and an anion, but its solubility is next to nothing. If you leave out solubility then every solid inorganic compound is a salt. // Going back to the OP's question, I would consider oxalic acid as being a salt and an acid.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    The point I'm trying to make about solubility is that a salt dissolves in water to give cations and anions. No molecular species, or at least none to any extent. So I would not consider phenol a salt. Yes you can remove a hydrogen in a basic enough solution, but the molecule doesn't "completely" dissociate into ions when added to water, so it isn't a salt even though it is a solid under ordinary conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    9 hours ago
















7












$begingroup$

It is a semantics question with an open ended discussion. If you recall the old problem "How many angels can dance on a pinhead? Medieval problem, this issue here is similar.



Basically in chemistry, all the terminology is controlled or endorsed by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC). They have a very open ended definition of a salt: "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions."



If we follow some really old chemistry texts (>1850s), yes an acid was defined as a salt of hydrogen ion, i.e., an acid is a salt whose electropositive element is hydrogen Definition of an acid.



Did this definition by a few chemists become popular? The simple answer is no. Not in a general sense.



The modern interpretation of an acid, again from IUPAC is, "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair."
If you have heard of ionic liquids, they consist of a large organic cation and an anion, this is a salt as well.



Then you have so-called acid salts, such as sodium hydrogen sulfate e.g., $ce{NaHSO4}$. Their pH is very acidic and these "salts" will neutralize bases like a typical acid.



Thus one may loosely say, that all acids may be considered as salts but not all salts are acids.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Thanks for the historic perspective, and kind of sad that the high school texts (and wikipedia) can't move on. Oh, I guess I could edit the wikipedia definition... help them move on.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I am very much disappointed by modern general chemistry texts. It turns away brightest students from chemistry. Some radical changes must be adapted.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Farooq
    12 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia has the IUPAC definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) Let's see if it sticks.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    +1 for this answer. IUPAC is the gold standard for definitions. However to me that definition leaves out two important characteristics. First a salt is a solid. Second I would add that a salt should have an appreciable solubility in water. I wouldn't expect $ce{CuS}$ for example to be classified as a "salt." Yes it has a cation and an anion, but its solubility is next to nothing. If you leave out solubility then every solid inorganic compound is a salt. // Going back to the OP's question, I would consider oxalic acid as being a salt and an acid.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    The point I'm trying to make about solubility is that a salt dissolves in water to give cations and anions. No molecular species, or at least none to any extent. So I would not consider phenol a salt. Yes you can remove a hydrogen in a basic enough solution, but the molecule doesn't "completely" dissociate into ions when added to water, so it isn't a salt even though it is a solid under ordinary conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    9 hours ago














7












7








7





$begingroup$

It is a semantics question with an open ended discussion. If you recall the old problem "How many angels can dance on a pinhead? Medieval problem, this issue here is similar.



Basically in chemistry, all the terminology is controlled or endorsed by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC). They have a very open ended definition of a salt: "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions."



If we follow some really old chemistry texts (>1850s), yes an acid was defined as a salt of hydrogen ion, i.e., an acid is a salt whose electropositive element is hydrogen Definition of an acid.



Did this definition by a few chemists become popular? The simple answer is no. Not in a general sense.



The modern interpretation of an acid, again from IUPAC is, "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair."
If you have heard of ionic liquids, they consist of a large organic cation and an anion, this is a salt as well.



Then you have so-called acid salts, such as sodium hydrogen sulfate e.g., $ce{NaHSO4}$. Their pH is very acidic and these "salts" will neutralize bases like a typical acid.



Thus one may loosely say, that all acids may be considered as salts but not all salts are acids.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



It is a semantics question with an open ended discussion. If you recall the old problem "How many angels can dance on a pinhead? Medieval problem, this issue here is similar.



Basically in chemistry, all the terminology is controlled or endorsed by the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemistry (IUPAC). They have a very open ended definition of a salt: "A chemical compound consisting of an assembly of cations and anions."



If we follow some really old chemistry texts (>1850s), yes an acid was defined as a salt of hydrogen ion, i.e., an acid is a salt whose electropositive element is hydrogen Definition of an acid.



Did this definition by a few chemists become popular? The simple answer is no. Not in a general sense.



The modern interpretation of an acid, again from IUPAC is, "A molecular entity or chemical species capable of donating a hydron (proton) or capable of forming a covalent bond with an electron pair."
If you have heard of ionic liquids, they consist of a large organic cation and an anion, this is a salt as well.



Then you have so-called acid salts, such as sodium hydrogen sulfate e.g., $ce{NaHSO4}$. Their pH is very acidic and these "salts" will neutralize bases like a typical acid.



Thus one may loosely say, that all acids may be considered as salts but not all salts are acids.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 12 hours ago

























answered 13 hours ago









M. FarooqM. Farooq

4,3805 silver badges18 bronze badges




4,3805 silver badges18 bronze badges








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Thanks for the historic perspective, and kind of sad that the high school texts (and wikipedia) can't move on. Oh, I guess I could edit the wikipedia definition... help them move on.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I am very much disappointed by modern general chemistry texts. It turns away brightest students from chemistry. Some radical changes must be adapted.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Farooq
    12 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia has the IUPAC definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) Let's see if it sticks.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    +1 for this answer. IUPAC is the gold standard for definitions. However to me that definition leaves out two important characteristics. First a salt is a solid. Second I would add that a salt should have an appreciable solubility in water. I wouldn't expect $ce{CuS}$ for example to be classified as a "salt." Yes it has a cation and an anion, but its solubility is next to nothing. If you leave out solubility then every solid inorganic compound is a salt. // Going back to the OP's question, I would consider oxalic acid as being a salt and an acid.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    The point I'm trying to make about solubility is that a salt dissolves in water to give cations and anions. No molecular species, or at least none to any extent. So I would not consider phenol a salt. Yes you can remove a hydrogen in a basic enough solution, but the molecule doesn't "completely" dissociate into ions when added to water, so it isn't a salt even though it is a solid under ordinary conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    9 hours ago














  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Thanks for the historic perspective, and kind of sad that the high school texts (and wikipedia) can't move on. Oh, I guess I could edit the wikipedia definition... help them move on.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    I am very much disappointed by modern general chemistry texts. It turns away brightest students from chemistry. Some radical changes must be adapted.
    $endgroup$
    – M. Farooq
    12 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wikipedia has the IUPAC definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) Let's see if it sticks.
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    12 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    +1 for this answer. IUPAC is the gold standard for definitions. However to me that definition leaves out two important characteristics. First a salt is a solid. Second I would add that a salt should have an appreciable solubility in water. I wouldn't expect $ce{CuS}$ for example to be classified as a "salt." Yes it has a cation and an anion, but its solubility is next to nothing. If you leave out solubility then every solid inorganic compound is a salt. // Going back to the OP's question, I would consider oxalic acid as being a salt and an acid.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    11 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    The point I'm trying to make about solubility is that a salt dissolves in water to give cations and anions. No molecular species, or at least none to any extent. So I would not consider phenol a salt. Yes you can remove a hydrogen in a basic enough solution, but the molecule doesn't "completely" dissociate into ions when added to water, so it isn't a salt even though it is a solid under ordinary conditions.
    $endgroup$
    – MaxW
    9 hours ago








3




3




$begingroup$
Thanks for the historic perspective, and kind of sad that the high school texts (and wikipedia) can't move on. Oh, I guess I could edit the wikipedia definition... help them move on.
$endgroup$
– Karsten Theis
12 hours ago




$begingroup$
Thanks for the historic perspective, and kind of sad that the high school texts (and wikipedia) can't move on. Oh, I guess I could edit the wikipedia definition... help them move on.
$endgroup$
– Karsten Theis
12 hours ago












$begingroup$
I am very much disappointed by modern general chemistry texts. It turns away brightest students from chemistry. Some radical changes must be adapted.
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
12 hours ago




$begingroup$
I am very much disappointed by modern general chemistry texts. It turns away brightest students from chemistry. Some radical changes must be adapted.
$endgroup$
– M. Farooq
12 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Wikipedia has the IUPAC definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) Let's see if it sticks.
$endgroup$
– Karsten Theis
12 hours ago




$begingroup$
Wikipedia has the IUPAC definition: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_(chemistry) Let's see if it sticks.
$endgroup$
– Karsten Theis
12 hours ago












$begingroup$
+1 for this answer. IUPAC is the gold standard for definitions. However to me that definition leaves out two important characteristics. First a salt is a solid. Second I would add that a salt should have an appreciable solubility in water. I wouldn't expect $ce{CuS}$ for example to be classified as a "salt." Yes it has a cation and an anion, but its solubility is next to nothing. If you leave out solubility then every solid inorganic compound is a salt. // Going back to the OP's question, I would consider oxalic acid as being a salt and an acid.
$endgroup$
– MaxW
11 hours ago






$begingroup$
+1 for this answer. IUPAC is the gold standard for definitions. However to me that definition leaves out two important characteristics. First a salt is a solid. Second I would add that a salt should have an appreciable solubility in water. I wouldn't expect $ce{CuS}$ for example to be classified as a "salt." Yes it has a cation and an anion, but its solubility is next to nothing. If you leave out solubility then every solid inorganic compound is a salt. // Going back to the OP's question, I would consider oxalic acid as being a salt and an acid.
$endgroup$
– MaxW
11 hours ago














$begingroup$
The point I'm trying to make about solubility is that a salt dissolves in water to give cations and anions. No molecular species, or at least none to any extent. So I would not consider phenol a salt. Yes you can remove a hydrogen in a basic enough solution, but the molecule doesn't "completely" dissociate into ions when added to water, so it isn't a salt even though it is a solid under ordinary conditions.
$endgroup$
– MaxW
9 hours ago




$begingroup$
The point I'm trying to make about solubility is that a salt dissolves in water to give cations and anions. No molecular species, or at least none to any extent. So I would not consider phenol a salt. Yes you can remove a hydrogen in a basic enough solution, but the molecule doesn't "completely" dissociate into ions when added to water, so it isn't a salt even though it is a solid under ordinary conditions.
$endgroup$
– MaxW
9 hours ago













3












$begingroup$

It's great that you are discussing chemistry in your office! You write:




[..] carbonic acid. It is a compound of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO^3-}$




This is the error in your reasoning. There is a covalent bond between the hydrogen and the rest of the molecule. When it reacts as an acid, this bond breaks.



I like definition d) of the online MW:




any of various compounds that result from replacement of part or all of the acid hydrogen of an acid by a metal or a group acting like a metal : an ionic crystalline compound




So starting with the acid $ce{H2CO3}$ (carbonic acid), you would let it react as an acid (in water, perhaps), and replace the lost hydrogen ion by a sodium ion, giving you $ce{NaHCO3}$, sodium bicarbonate. If you isolate that as a pure solid, you get a typical salt (ionic crystals, dissolve more or less in water).



If you want to get back to your definition, you would add carbonic acid and sodium hydroxide in water. Carbonic acid would act as an acid, sodium hydroxide would act as a base, and depending on the mixing ration (stoichiometry), you would get sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate. Removing water would give you the ionic compounds.



Now you can go back to discussing how to popcount large arrays...






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Since you pointed out some mistakes in the original question, I also would like to stress that H3O+ is not a base, but it is instead an acid...
    $endgroup$
    – Pier
    3 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Good catch - I fixed it in the question @Pier
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    3 hours ago
















3












$begingroup$

It's great that you are discussing chemistry in your office! You write:




[..] carbonic acid. It is a compound of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO^3-}$




This is the error in your reasoning. There is a covalent bond between the hydrogen and the rest of the molecule. When it reacts as an acid, this bond breaks.



I like definition d) of the online MW:




any of various compounds that result from replacement of part or all of the acid hydrogen of an acid by a metal or a group acting like a metal : an ionic crystalline compound




So starting with the acid $ce{H2CO3}$ (carbonic acid), you would let it react as an acid (in water, perhaps), and replace the lost hydrogen ion by a sodium ion, giving you $ce{NaHCO3}$, sodium bicarbonate. If you isolate that as a pure solid, you get a typical salt (ionic crystals, dissolve more or less in water).



If you want to get back to your definition, you would add carbonic acid and sodium hydroxide in water. Carbonic acid would act as an acid, sodium hydroxide would act as a base, and depending on the mixing ration (stoichiometry), you would get sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate. Removing water would give you the ionic compounds.



Now you can go back to discussing how to popcount large arrays...






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Since you pointed out some mistakes in the original question, I also would like to stress that H3O+ is not a base, but it is instead an acid...
    $endgroup$
    – Pier
    3 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Good catch - I fixed it in the question @Pier
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    3 hours ago














3












3








3





$begingroup$

It's great that you are discussing chemistry in your office! You write:




[..] carbonic acid. It is a compound of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO^3-}$




This is the error in your reasoning. There is a covalent bond between the hydrogen and the rest of the molecule. When it reacts as an acid, this bond breaks.



I like definition d) of the online MW:




any of various compounds that result from replacement of part or all of the acid hydrogen of an acid by a metal or a group acting like a metal : an ionic crystalline compound




So starting with the acid $ce{H2CO3}$ (carbonic acid), you would let it react as an acid (in water, perhaps), and replace the lost hydrogen ion by a sodium ion, giving you $ce{NaHCO3}$, sodium bicarbonate. If you isolate that as a pure solid, you get a typical salt (ionic crystals, dissolve more or less in water).



If you want to get back to your definition, you would add carbonic acid and sodium hydroxide in water. Carbonic acid would act as an acid, sodium hydroxide would act as a base, and depending on the mixing ration (stoichiometry), you would get sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate. Removing water would give you the ionic compounds.



Now you can go back to discussing how to popcount large arrays...






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$



It's great that you are discussing chemistry in your office! You write:




[..] carbonic acid. It is a compound of the ions $ce{H+}$ and $ce{HCO^3-}$




This is the error in your reasoning. There is a covalent bond between the hydrogen and the rest of the molecule. When it reacts as an acid, this bond breaks.



I like definition d) of the online MW:




any of various compounds that result from replacement of part or all of the acid hydrogen of an acid by a metal or a group acting like a metal : an ionic crystalline compound




So starting with the acid $ce{H2CO3}$ (carbonic acid), you would let it react as an acid (in water, perhaps), and replace the lost hydrogen ion by a sodium ion, giving you $ce{NaHCO3}$, sodium bicarbonate. If you isolate that as a pure solid, you get a typical salt (ionic crystals, dissolve more or less in water).



If you want to get back to your definition, you would add carbonic acid and sodium hydroxide in water. Carbonic acid would act as an acid, sodium hydroxide would act as a base, and depending on the mixing ration (stoichiometry), you would get sodium carbonate or sodium bicarbonate. Removing water would give you the ionic compounds.



Now you can go back to discussing how to popcount large arrays...







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 13 hours ago

























answered 13 hours ago









Karsten TheisKarsten Theis

7,75510 silver badges52 bronze badges




7,75510 silver badges52 bronze badges








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Since you pointed out some mistakes in the original question, I also would like to stress that H3O+ is not a base, but it is instead an acid...
    $endgroup$
    – Pier
    3 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Good catch - I fixed it in the question @Pier
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    3 hours ago














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Since you pointed out some mistakes in the original question, I also would like to stress that H3O+ is not a base, but it is instead an acid...
    $endgroup$
    – Pier
    3 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    Good catch - I fixed it in the question @Pier
    $endgroup$
    – Karsten Theis
    3 hours ago








2




2




$begingroup$
Since you pointed out some mistakes in the original question, I also would like to stress that H3O+ is not a base, but it is instead an acid...
$endgroup$
– Pier
3 hours ago






$begingroup$
Since you pointed out some mistakes in the original question, I also would like to stress that H3O+ is not a base, but it is instead an acid...
$endgroup$
– Pier
3 hours ago














$begingroup$
Good catch - I fixed it in the question @Pier
$endgroup$
– Karsten Theis
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Good catch - I fixed it in the question @Pier
$endgroup$
– Karsten Theis
3 hours ago










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