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Why do planes need a roll motion?


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Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?










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    Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?










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      1





      $begingroup$


      Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?










      share|improve this question







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      Isn't only pitching up/down and yawing right/left enough for travelling from one location to another?







      roll






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      muyustanmuyustan

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          5 Answers
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          Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



          Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



          The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



          But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



          Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.






          share|improve this answer









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          • $begingroup$
            I think this answers my quesion very well, thanks.
            $endgroup$
            – muyustan
            6 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            1 hour ago



















          6












          $begingroup$

          This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



          What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



          Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



          What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



          Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. This method will also create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



          Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the plane turns due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



          A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



          A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






          share|improve this answer











          $endgroup$









          • 1




            $begingroup$
            thanks, i will look that source.
            $endgroup$
            – muyustan
            8 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            regarding your update, the paragraph starting as note the difference is really hard to understand(to keep track of the sentence) for me (probably because I am not a native speaker, not resulting from you). Also regarding your las sentence, I am neither someone getting education on the aerial area nor someone trying to be able to be fly something. I am working on electronics/robotics and just have an interest on these subjects and interpretation of them in electronics. So, this is like a hobby to me. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me anyway.
            $endgroup$
            – muyustan
            7 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Yes that website probably isn't the best fit for your interests but I decided not to delete the paragraph. As for the "note the difference" paragraph, that's really important; I can't think of a way to explain it better. The crucial difference is that in the first case the fuselage is aligned with the airflow and in the second case the nose is pointing a bit too far toward the direction of turn so the fuselage is not aligned with the airflow. The second case is a restating of the paragraph immediately above-- i.e. exposing the side of the fuselage to the airflow.
            $endgroup$
            – quiet flyer
            7 hours ago












          • $begingroup$
            by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right? If yes, can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching? ( I think maybe yes because the wind may push the plane but not sure ). If it is too complicated don't bother yourself to answer, it is not a crucial issue. edit : I guess you answered my question in your main answer already, I will read it again.
            $endgroup$
            – muyustan
            7 hours ago








          • 1




            $begingroup$
            "by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right?"-- basically. "can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching?" Well --the normal type of turn, based on banking, does involve yaw rotation too, just no sideslip / skid. Sideslip (or skid) is what it is called when the nose is yawed in a manner that makes it point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually moving through the air. Anyway this normal type of turn does involve a steady rotation about the pitch axis, but the pitch attitude remains constant throughout the duration of the turn.
            $endgroup$
            – quiet flyer
            7 hours ago



















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          Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



          Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



          On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






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          • 1




            $begingroup$
            Thanks! It helped.
            $endgroup$
            – muyustan
            9 hours ago










          • $begingroup$
            Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
            $endgroup$
            – Koyovis
            1 hour ago



















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          Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



          Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



          Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






          share|improve this answer









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            $begingroup$

            In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



            *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






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              5 Answers
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              active

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              5 Answers
              5






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

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              active

              oldest

              votes









              3












              $begingroup$

              Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



              Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



              The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



              But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



              Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                I think this answers my quesion very well, thanks.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago
















              3












              $begingroup$

              Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



              Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



              The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



              But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



              Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                I think this answers my quesion very well, thanks.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago














              3












              3








              3





              $begingroup$

              Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



              Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



              The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



              But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



              Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Here's simple way to conceive it. An airplane turns by tilting the lift force from straight up to angled off to one side, and to do this, it has to bank.



              Imagine the SpaceX rocket hovering. If it wants to move sideways, it tilts its thrust line off vertical. With the thrust line now pointed at, say, 11 O'clock instead of 12, some of the thrust is now creating a lateral force and the rocket moves sideways. To keep from descending while moving sideways, the total thrust has to be increased to compensate for the portion of thrust now working to move the body sideways. But in any case, it's the tilting of the thrust line that makes it move sideways.



              The airplane's wings are making thrust (by redirecting a large package of air above and below downward) as it moves along. If you tilt the wings, it's like the rocket tilting. The thrust being created by the wings is tilted by the amount of the bank angle, and part of the wings' thrust or lift is now creating a lateral force, making the airplane move sideways.



              But the airplane isn't hovering, it's moving forward while this is going on. Because it's moving forward, the sideways movement created by banking the wings results in it moving in a horizontal arc. That's a turn. Like the earlier rocket analogy, to keep from descending the airplane has to increase its total lift thrust to compensate for the thrust lost by using it to move laterally. So you have to pitch up a bit to make more total thrust (lift) from the wings as you turn or you'll descend.



              Helicopters are the same. If it's hovering stationary, and you want it to move sideways, you tilt the rotor disc to angle the thrust line of the rotor. If the helicopter is flying forward while this is being done, it moves sideways and forward at the same time, creating a horizontal arc, or a turn, just like the airplane.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 6 hours ago









              John KJohn K

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              • $begingroup$
                I think this answers my quesion very well, thanks.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago


















              • $begingroup$
                I think this answers my quesion very well, thanks.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago
















              $begingroup$
              I think this answers my quesion very well, thanks.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              I think this answers my quesion very well, thanks.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              6 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              1 hour ago




              $begingroup$
              A fixed wing aeroplane can also turn by deflecting the rudder. Helicopters as well. So why do they require roll for turning, would still be the question.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              1 hour ago













              6












              $begingroup$

              This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



              What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



              Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



              What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



              Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. This method will also create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



              Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the plane turns due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



              A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



              A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






              share|improve this answer











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              • 1




                $begingroup$
                thanks, i will look that source.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                8 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                regarding your update, the paragraph starting as note the difference is really hard to understand(to keep track of the sentence) for me (probably because I am not a native speaker, not resulting from you). Also regarding your las sentence, I am neither someone getting education on the aerial area nor someone trying to be able to be fly something. I am working on electronics/robotics and just have an interest on these subjects and interpretation of them in electronics. So, this is like a hobby to me. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yes that website probably isn't the best fit for your interests but I decided not to delete the paragraph. As for the "note the difference" paragraph, that's really important; I can't think of a way to explain it better. The crucial difference is that in the first case the fuselage is aligned with the airflow and in the second case the nose is pointing a bit too far toward the direction of turn so the fuselage is not aligned with the airflow. The second case is a restating of the paragraph immediately above-- i.e. exposing the side of the fuselage to the airflow.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right? If yes, can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching? ( I think maybe yes because the wind may push the plane but not sure ). If it is too complicated don't bother yourself to answer, it is not a crucial issue. edit : I guess you answered my question in your main answer already, I will read it again.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                "by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right?"-- basically. "can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching?" Well --the normal type of turn, based on banking, does involve yaw rotation too, just no sideslip / skid. Sideslip (or skid) is what it is called when the nose is yawed in a manner that makes it point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually moving through the air. Anyway this normal type of turn does involve a steady rotation about the pitch axis, but the pitch attitude remains constant throughout the duration of the turn.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago
















              6












              $begingroup$

              This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



              What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



              Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



              What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



              Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. This method will also create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



              Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the plane turns due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



              A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



              A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                thanks, i will look that source.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                8 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                regarding your update, the paragraph starting as note the difference is really hard to understand(to keep track of the sentence) for me (probably because I am not a native speaker, not resulting from you). Also regarding your las sentence, I am neither someone getting education on the aerial area nor someone trying to be able to be fly something. I am working on electronics/robotics and just have an interest on these subjects and interpretation of them in electronics. So, this is like a hobby to me. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yes that website probably isn't the best fit for your interests but I decided not to delete the paragraph. As for the "note the difference" paragraph, that's really important; I can't think of a way to explain it better. The crucial difference is that in the first case the fuselage is aligned with the airflow and in the second case the nose is pointing a bit too far toward the direction of turn so the fuselage is not aligned with the airflow. The second case is a restating of the paragraph immediately above-- i.e. exposing the side of the fuselage to the airflow.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right? If yes, can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching? ( I think maybe yes because the wind may push the plane but not sure ). If it is too complicated don't bother yourself to answer, it is not a crucial issue. edit : I guess you answered my question in your main answer already, I will read it again.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                "by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right?"-- basically. "can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching?" Well --the normal type of turn, based on banking, does involve yaw rotation too, just no sideslip / skid. Sideslip (or skid) is what it is called when the nose is yawed in a manner that makes it point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually moving through the air. Anyway this normal type of turn does involve a steady rotation about the pitch axis, but the pitch attitude remains constant throughout the duration of the turn.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago














              6












              6








              6





              $begingroup$

              This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



              What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



              Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



              What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



              Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. This method will also create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



              Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the plane turns due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



              A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



              A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!






              share|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              This answer is specifically for a fixed-wing airplane, not a helicopter or multicopter, although some aspects of it will apply to them too.



              What is a turn? A turn is a curvature in the flight path. This means a turn is a form of acceleration. Specifically, a centripetal acceleration-- the flight path is being continually "bent" toward the center of the turn, creating a circular path.



              Newton's second law is force = mass * acceleration, or acceleration = force / mass. You can't have an acceleration unless you are exerting a force to cause that acceleration. You can't have a centripetal acceleration unless you are exerting a centripetal force-- a force vector pointing toward the center of the turn.



              What part of an aircraft is designed to produce force as efficiently as possible? The wing. If you roll the aircraft into a bank, you tilt the wing's lift force to one side, and you've now a created a centripetal force as efficiently as possible-- i.e. with the least drag possible.



              Instead of banking, you can also turn by yawing the fuselage sideways relative to the flight path to expose the side of the fuselage to the airflow. This method also points the thrust vector from the engine or engines sideways relative to the flight path. This method will also create some centripetal force, but it is very inefficient-- drag will be very high. It will also be uncomfortable for anyone in the plane as they will tend to be thrown against the "upwind" side of the fuselage.



              Note the difference between causing or allowing just enough yaw rotation to let the nose track around the horizon and "keep up with" the changing the direction of the flight path as the plane turns due to the centripetal force generated by the banked wing, and forcing the nose to yaw to point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually travelling through the air at any given instant, as would be required if you were trying to turn without banking at all.



              A car on flat ground can turn without banking fairly efficiently but that's only because the tires usually grip the road quite well, so it only takes a very small sideways angle between the alignment of each wheel, and the instantaneous path of travel of that part of the car, to generate a strong sideways force. So you don't scrub off a lot of energy due to excess drag. Very different from dragging a fuselage sideways through the air at a large sideslip angle.



              A good source for starting to learn about the basic physics of flight is John S. Denker's "See How It Flies" website . On second thought, this website is not so much designed to introduce a complete novice to the basic principles of flight, as to help someone with some flying experience and training understand the "why" of it all on deeper lever than some pilots ever manage to reach in a whole lifetime of flying!







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 7 hours ago

























              answered 8 hours ago









              quiet flyerquiet flyer

              4,0637 silver badges41 bronze badges




              4,0637 silver badges41 bronze badges








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                thanks, i will look that source.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                8 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                regarding your update, the paragraph starting as note the difference is really hard to understand(to keep track of the sentence) for me (probably because I am not a native speaker, not resulting from you). Also regarding your las sentence, I am neither someone getting education on the aerial area nor someone trying to be able to be fly something. I am working on electronics/robotics and just have an interest on these subjects and interpretation of them in electronics. So, this is like a hobby to me. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yes that website probably isn't the best fit for your interests but I decided not to delete the paragraph. As for the "note the difference" paragraph, that's really important; I can't think of a way to explain it better. The crucial difference is that in the first case the fuselage is aligned with the airflow and in the second case the nose is pointing a bit too far toward the direction of turn so the fuselage is not aligned with the airflow. The second case is a restating of the paragraph immediately above-- i.e. exposing the side of the fuselage to the airflow.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right? If yes, can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching? ( I think maybe yes because the wind may push the plane but not sure ). If it is too complicated don't bother yourself to answer, it is not a crucial issue. edit : I guess you answered my question in your main answer already, I will read it again.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                "by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right?"-- basically. "can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching?" Well --the normal type of turn, based on banking, does involve yaw rotation too, just no sideslip / skid. Sideslip (or skid) is what it is called when the nose is yawed in a manner that makes it point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually moving through the air. Anyway this normal type of turn does involve a steady rotation about the pitch axis, but the pitch attitude remains constant throughout the duration of the turn.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago














              • 1




                $begingroup$
                thanks, i will look that source.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                8 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                regarding your update, the paragraph starting as note the difference is really hard to understand(to keep track of the sentence) for me (probably because I am not a native speaker, not resulting from you). Also regarding your las sentence, I am neither someone getting education on the aerial area nor someone trying to be able to be fly something. I am working on electronics/robotics and just have an interest on these subjects and interpretation of them in electronics. So, this is like a hobby to me. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me anyway.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Yes that website probably isn't the best fit for your interests but I decided not to delete the paragraph. As for the "note the difference" paragraph, that's really important; I can't think of a way to explain it better. The crucial difference is that in the first case the fuselage is aligned with the airflow and in the second case the nose is pointing a bit too far toward the direction of turn so the fuselage is not aligned with the airflow. The second case is a restating of the paragraph immediately above-- i.e. exposing the side of the fuselage to the airflow.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right? If yes, can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching? ( I think maybe yes because the wind may push the plane but not sure ). If it is too complicated don't bother yourself to answer, it is not a crucial issue. edit : I guess you answered my question in your main answer already, I will read it again.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                7 hours ago








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                "by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right?"-- basically. "can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching?" Well --the normal type of turn, based on banking, does involve yaw rotation too, just no sideslip / skid. Sideslip (or skid) is what it is called when the nose is yawed in a manner that makes it point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually moving through the air. Anyway this normal type of turn does involve a steady rotation about the pitch axis, but the pitch attitude remains constant throughout the duration of the turn.
                $endgroup$
                – quiet flyer
                7 hours ago








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              thanks, i will look that source.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              8 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              thanks, i will look that source.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              8 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              regarding your update, the paragraph starting as note the difference is really hard to understand(to keep track of the sentence) for me (probably because I am not a native speaker, not resulting from you). Also regarding your las sentence, I am neither someone getting education on the aerial area nor someone trying to be able to be fly something. I am working on electronics/robotics and just have an interest on these subjects and interpretation of them in electronics. So, this is like a hobby to me. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me anyway.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              7 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              regarding your update, the paragraph starting as note the difference is really hard to understand(to keep track of the sentence) for me (probably because I am not a native speaker, not resulting from you). Also regarding your las sentence, I am neither someone getting education on the aerial area nor someone trying to be able to be fly something. I am working on electronics/robotics and just have an interest on these subjects and interpretation of them in electronics. So, this is like a hobby to me. Thanks for your efforts to enlighten me anyway.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              7 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              Yes that website probably isn't the best fit for your interests but I decided not to delete the paragraph. As for the "note the difference" paragraph, that's really important; I can't think of a way to explain it better. The crucial difference is that in the first case the fuselage is aligned with the airflow and in the second case the nose is pointing a bit too far toward the direction of turn so the fuselage is not aligned with the airflow. The second case is a restating of the paragraph immediately above-- i.e. exposing the side of the fuselage to the airflow.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              7 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              Yes that website probably isn't the best fit for your interests but I decided not to delete the paragraph. As for the "note the difference" paragraph, that's really important; I can't think of a way to explain it better. The crucial difference is that in the first case the fuselage is aligned with the airflow and in the second case the nose is pointing a bit too far toward the direction of turn so the fuselage is not aligned with the airflow. The second case is a restating of the paragraph immediately above-- i.e. exposing the side of the fuselage to the airflow.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              7 hours ago














              $begingroup$
              by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right? If yes, can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching? ( I think maybe yes because the wind may push the plane but not sure ). If it is too complicated don't bother yourself to answer, it is not a crucial issue. edit : I guess you answered my question in your main answer already, I will read it again.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              7 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right? If yes, can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching? ( I think maybe yes because the wind may push the plane but not sure ). If it is too complicated don't bother yourself to answer, it is not a crucial issue. edit : I guess you answered my question in your main answer already, I will read it again.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              7 hours ago






              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              "by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right?"-- basically. "can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching?" Well --the normal type of turn, based on banking, does involve yaw rotation too, just no sideslip / skid. Sideslip (or skid) is what it is called when the nose is yawed in a manner that makes it point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually moving through the air. Anyway this normal type of turn does involve a steady rotation about the pitch axis, but the pitch attitude remains constant throughout the duration of the turn.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              7 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              "by first you mean roll and second you mean yaw right?"-- basically. "can only a roll maneuver result in a turn without also pitching?" Well --the normal type of turn, based on banking, does involve yaw rotation too, just no sideslip / skid. Sideslip (or skid) is what it is called when the nose is yawed in a manner that makes it point in a different direction than the aircraft is actually moving through the air. Anyway this normal type of turn does involve a steady rotation about the pitch axis, but the pitch attitude remains constant throughout the duration of the turn.
              $endgroup$
              – quiet flyer
              7 hours ago











              4












              $begingroup$

              Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



              Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



              On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Thanks! It helped.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                9 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago
















              4












              $begingroup$

              Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



              Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



              On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$









              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Thanks! It helped.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                9 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago














              4












              4








              4





              $begingroup$

              Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



              Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



              On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Think about the airplane as a body you want to control. That object has 6 degrees of freedom, including rolling. If you remove rolling you will not be able to control airplane's roll. Imagine a situation, when an small mass is over the wing and the airplane starts to roll and you are not able to compensate it.



              Saying that, the way to control yaw is to use the vertical plane, and, the vertical plane will generate roll that you will need to compensate. So yaw and roll are coupled.



              On the other side, the preferred way to perform a turn in the air is using roll, not using yaw. It is more efficient and faster (in space) than using yaw







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 9 hours ago









              Trebia Project.Trebia Project.

              3,0171 gold badge14 silver badges36 bronze badges




              3,0171 gold badge14 silver badges36 bronze badges








              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Thanks! It helped.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                9 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago














              • 1




                $begingroup$
                Thanks! It helped.
                $endgroup$
                – muyustan
                9 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
                $endgroup$
                – Koyovis
                1 hour ago








              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              Thanks! It helped.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              9 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              Thanks! It helped.
              $endgroup$
              – muyustan
              9 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              1 hour ago




              $begingroup$
              Roll can be controlled indirectly by wing dihedral. The Fokker "Spin" only had elevator/rudder for control, and could successfully fly around the Haarlem cathedral in 1911.
              $endgroup$
              – Koyovis
              1 hour ago











              0












              $begingroup$

              Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



              Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



              Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



                Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



                Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



                  Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



                  Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Pitching up/down and yawing left/right would be adequate for a high wing dihedral design, were it not for the need for cross wind control. A high wing dihedral will make beautiful banked turns simply by pushing the rudder. The dihedral banks the plane away from the rudder induced slip. Great for indoors models.



                  Unfortunately, in a full scale outdoors (pilot in the plane) cross wind landing situation, this design would be very difficult to control without ailerons to bank the plane into the wind (in order to prevent lateral drift), while the rudder maintains ground heading.



                  Without ailerons, this type of plane would be easily rolled and blown sideways out of control, unless it was landed directly into the wind.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 2 hours ago









                  Robert DiGiovanniRobert DiGiovanni

                  4,3091 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges




                  4,3091 gold badge4 silver badges22 bronze badges























                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



                      *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$


















                        0












                        $begingroup$

                        In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



                        *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






                        share|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$
















                          0












                          0








                          0





                          $begingroup$

                          In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



                          *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...






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                          $endgroup$



                          In addition to the use in turning, you need to realize that the atmosphere is not static. It's in constant motion, both horizontally and vertically. The vertical currents can be strong enough, and localized enough, to tilt one wing or the other*, thus causing an involuntary roll. If you don't have some means to counteract this induced roll, you now have a plane that is highly unstable and likely to crash.



                          *Flying a sailplane or small power plane on a day with lots of thermal activity is a constant balancing act, using small control motions to keep the wings level (or at the bank angle you want) despite what the atmosphere wants to do to you. And let's not even get into the sort of vertical currents you can get from storms...







                          share|improve this answer












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                          share|improve this answer










                          answered 30 mins ago









                          jamesqfjamesqf

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