How can we effectively compute the sqrt of some element in the group?How to find an element of high-order in...

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How can we effectively compute the sqrt of some element in the group?


How to find an element of high-order in an RSA group?Generation of a cyclic group of prime orderHow to construct a hash function into a cyclic group such that its discrete log is intractable?How is the order of a point calculated for elliptic curves over GF(p)Generating Diffie-Hellman parametersHow hard is the DLP in that simple group?Number of generators of an elliptic curveGenerators and Multiplicative group $mathbb{Z_7}$






.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty{ margin-bottom:0;
}







3












$begingroup$


I only know one way, if this group is a cyclic group, and we know the element can be expressed in $g^m$, then $g^{(m/2)}$ is the answer.




  • Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?


  • Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element = $g_1^k$?



If we don't know whether or not the group is cyclic group, the complexity to find the sqrt or to confirm such an answer not exists is as difficult as DLP ?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Ray James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    This is a pure math question with no effort. If you now $m$ everything easy. Alos, see Rabin Cryptosystem.
    $endgroup$
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago


















3












$begingroup$


I only know one way, if this group is a cyclic group, and we know the element can be expressed in $g^m$, then $g^{(m/2)}$ is the answer.




  • Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?


  • Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element = $g_1^k$?



If we don't know whether or not the group is cyclic group, the complexity to find the sqrt or to confirm such an answer not exists is as difficult as DLP ?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Ray James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$














  • $begingroup$
    This is a pure math question with no effort. If you now $m$ everything easy. Alos, see Rabin Cryptosystem.
    $endgroup$
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago














3












3








3





$begingroup$


I only know one way, if this group is a cyclic group, and we know the element can be expressed in $g^m$, then $g^{(m/2)}$ is the answer.




  • Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?


  • Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element = $g_1^k$?



If we don't know whether or not the group is cyclic group, the complexity to find the sqrt or to confirm such an answer not exists is as difficult as DLP ?










share|improve this question









New contributor



Ray James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






$endgroup$




I only know one way, if this group is a cyclic group, and we know the element can be expressed in $g^m$, then $g^{(m/2)}$ is the answer.




  • Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?


  • Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element = $g_1^k$?



If we don't know whether or not the group is cyclic group, the complexity to find the sqrt or to confirm such an answer not exists is as difficult as DLP ?







group-theory






share|improve this question









New contributor



Ray James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










share|improve this question









New contributor



Ray James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









kelalaka

9,8733 gold badges26 silver badges54 bronze badges




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asked 2 days ago









Ray JamesRay James

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New contributor




Ray James is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

















  • $begingroup$
    This is a pure math question with no effort. If you now $m$ everything easy. Alos, see Rabin Cryptosystem.
    $endgroup$
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago


















  • $begingroup$
    This is a pure math question with no effort. If you now $m$ everything easy. Alos, see Rabin Cryptosystem.
    $endgroup$
    – kelalaka
    2 days ago
















$begingroup$
This is a pure math question with no effort. If you now $m$ everything easy. Alos, see Rabin Cryptosystem.
$endgroup$
– kelalaka
2 days ago




$begingroup$
This is a pure math question with no effort. If you now $m$ everything easy. Alos, see Rabin Cryptosystem.
$endgroup$
– kelalaka
2 days ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















2













$begingroup$

TL;DR: Efficient algorithm only exist in specific cases. The problem, in its full generality (finite abelian groups) is equivalent to the integer factorization problem.




How can we effectively compute the square root of an element in a group?




One case where we can compute a square root is when the group order is known and it is odd.
Any element $g$ in a group has the following property: if $q$ is the order of the group, then $g^q=1$. This is due to Lagrage's Theorem. Equivalently, $g^{q+1}=g$. If $q$ is odd then $frac{q+1}{2}$ is an integer, hence we can compute $h:= g^{frac{q+1}{2}}$, which is a square root of $g$.



Another case is the following: Assume $G$ is isomorphic to the direct product group of $k$ copies of the group of order 2 and a group of order odd $q$:
$$
G simeq mathbb{G}_q times prod_{i=1}^k mathbb{Z}_2
$$

where $mathbb{G}_q$ denotes a group of order $q$ and $mathbb{Z}_2$ the group of order 2. Also, importantly, assume you know how to compute this isomorphism.



In the group of order 2, the non-unit element is its own inverse, hence it has no square root. This implies the following: Let $g in G$. Apply the isomorphism to get the representation of $g$ as an element in the direct product above: $g = (g', g_1, ..., g_k)$, where $g' in mathbb{G}_q$ and $g_i$ is in the $i$'th $mathbb{Z}_2$. If there exists $i$ such that $g_i$ is not the unit element, then $g$ does not have a square root.



On the other hand, if $g_i$ is the unit element in all copies of $mathbb{G}_2$, then the problem reduces to the case of a group of odd order: you just raise $g$ to the power of $frac{q+1}{2}$.




Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?




No. The above explains this too. Actually, for the above, you don't need to know $m$ (which is typically the case).




Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element is equal to $g^k$?




The above addresses this too, since it fully describes the set of squares in the group.



EDIT:



In "Oded Goldreich, Computational complexity: a conceptual perspective" it is shown that finding square roots modulo composite numbers is a computational problem equivalent to integer factorization. Hence, don't expect any "general purpose" algorithm, only algorithm for special cases. One such case is the multiplicative group of invertible element in a field of prime size $p$ - called Tonelli-Shanks.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$











  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Maybe you did it as a simplification, but your decomposition as a product of groups does not always work. Example : $mathbb Z/2^kmathbb Z$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb Z/2mathbb Z)^k$.
    $endgroup$
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday












  • $begingroup$
    @LeoDucas Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I edited.
    $endgroup$
    – Chipotle
    yesterday



















1













$begingroup$

In a generic group, I don't know if it exists really a generic algorithm to solve your problem, but if you group is also a field ($mathbb{Z}_p$ with $p$ a prime number for example), then you can use the Berlekamp algorithm to factorize $X^2 -x$ where $x$ is your element.



I made an error, I've deleted the wrong part.






share|improve this answer











$endgroup$


















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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    active

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    2













    $begingroup$

    TL;DR: Efficient algorithm only exist in specific cases. The problem, in its full generality (finite abelian groups) is equivalent to the integer factorization problem.




    How can we effectively compute the square root of an element in a group?




    One case where we can compute a square root is when the group order is known and it is odd.
    Any element $g$ in a group has the following property: if $q$ is the order of the group, then $g^q=1$. This is due to Lagrage's Theorem. Equivalently, $g^{q+1}=g$. If $q$ is odd then $frac{q+1}{2}$ is an integer, hence we can compute $h:= g^{frac{q+1}{2}}$, which is a square root of $g$.



    Another case is the following: Assume $G$ is isomorphic to the direct product group of $k$ copies of the group of order 2 and a group of order odd $q$:
    $$
    G simeq mathbb{G}_q times prod_{i=1}^k mathbb{Z}_2
    $$

    where $mathbb{G}_q$ denotes a group of order $q$ and $mathbb{Z}_2$ the group of order 2. Also, importantly, assume you know how to compute this isomorphism.



    In the group of order 2, the non-unit element is its own inverse, hence it has no square root. This implies the following: Let $g in G$. Apply the isomorphism to get the representation of $g$ as an element in the direct product above: $g = (g', g_1, ..., g_k)$, where $g' in mathbb{G}_q$ and $g_i$ is in the $i$'th $mathbb{Z}_2$. If there exists $i$ such that $g_i$ is not the unit element, then $g$ does not have a square root.



    On the other hand, if $g_i$ is the unit element in all copies of $mathbb{G}_2$, then the problem reduces to the case of a group of odd order: you just raise $g$ to the power of $frac{q+1}{2}$.




    Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?




    No. The above explains this too. Actually, for the above, you don't need to know $m$ (which is typically the case).




    Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element is equal to $g^k$?




    The above addresses this too, since it fully describes the set of squares in the group.



    EDIT:



    In "Oded Goldreich, Computational complexity: a conceptual perspective" it is shown that finding square roots modulo composite numbers is a computational problem equivalent to integer factorization. Hence, don't expect any "general purpose" algorithm, only algorithm for special cases. One such case is the multiplicative group of invertible element in a field of prime size $p$ - called Tonelli-Shanks.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$











    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Maybe you did it as a simplification, but your decomposition as a product of groups does not always work. Example : $mathbb Z/2^kmathbb Z$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb Z/2mathbb Z)^k$.
      $endgroup$
      – LeoDucas
      yesterday












    • $begingroup$
      @LeoDucas Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I edited.
      $endgroup$
      – Chipotle
      yesterday
















    2













    $begingroup$

    TL;DR: Efficient algorithm only exist in specific cases. The problem, in its full generality (finite abelian groups) is equivalent to the integer factorization problem.




    How can we effectively compute the square root of an element in a group?




    One case where we can compute a square root is when the group order is known and it is odd.
    Any element $g$ in a group has the following property: if $q$ is the order of the group, then $g^q=1$. This is due to Lagrage's Theorem. Equivalently, $g^{q+1}=g$. If $q$ is odd then $frac{q+1}{2}$ is an integer, hence we can compute $h:= g^{frac{q+1}{2}}$, which is a square root of $g$.



    Another case is the following: Assume $G$ is isomorphic to the direct product group of $k$ copies of the group of order 2 and a group of order odd $q$:
    $$
    G simeq mathbb{G}_q times prod_{i=1}^k mathbb{Z}_2
    $$

    where $mathbb{G}_q$ denotes a group of order $q$ and $mathbb{Z}_2$ the group of order 2. Also, importantly, assume you know how to compute this isomorphism.



    In the group of order 2, the non-unit element is its own inverse, hence it has no square root. This implies the following: Let $g in G$. Apply the isomorphism to get the representation of $g$ as an element in the direct product above: $g = (g', g_1, ..., g_k)$, where $g' in mathbb{G}_q$ and $g_i$ is in the $i$'th $mathbb{Z}_2$. If there exists $i$ such that $g_i$ is not the unit element, then $g$ does not have a square root.



    On the other hand, if $g_i$ is the unit element in all copies of $mathbb{G}_2$, then the problem reduces to the case of a group of odd order: you just raise $g$ to the power of $frac{q+1}{2}$.




    Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?




    No. The above explains this too. Actually, for the above, you don't need to know $m$ (which is typically the case).




    Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element is equal to $g^k$?




    The above addresses this too, since it fully describes the set of squares in the group.



    EDIT:



    In "Oded Goldreich, Computational complexity: a conceptual perspective" it is shown that finding square roots modulo composite numbers is a computational problem equivalent to integer factorization. Hence, don't expect any "general purpose" algorithm, only algorithm for special cases. One such case is the multiplicative group of invertible element in a field of prime size $p$ - called Tonelli-Shanks.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$











    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Maybe you did it as a simplification, but your decomposition as a product of groups does not always work. Example : $mathbb Z/2^kmathbb Z$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb Z/2mathbb Z)^k$.
      $endgroup$
      – LeoDucas
      yesterday












    • $begingroup$
      @LeoDucas Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I edited.
      $endgroup$
      – Chipotle
      yesterday














    2














    2










    2







    $begingroup$

    TL;DR: Efficient algorithm only exist in specific cases. The problem, in its full generality (finite abelian groups) is equivalent to the integer factorization problem.




    How can we effectively compute the square root of an element in a group?




    One case where we can compute a square root is when the group order is known and it is odd.
    Any element $g$ in a group has the following property: if $q$ is the order of the group, then $g^q=1$. This is due to Lagrage's Theorem. Equivalently, $g^{q+1}=g$. If $q$ is odd then $frac{q+1}{2}$ is an integer, hence we can compute $h:= g^{frac{q+1}{2}}$, which is a square root of $g$.



    Another case is the following: Assume $G$ is isomorphic to the direct product group of $k$ copies of the group of order 2 and a group of order odd $q$:
    $$
    G simeq mathbb{G}_q times prod_{i=1}^k mathbb{Z}_2
    $$

    where $mathbb{G}_q$ denotes a group of order $q$ and $mathbb{Z}_2$ the group of order 2. Also, importantly, assume you know how to compute this isomorphism.



    In the group of order 2, the non-unit element is its own inverse, hence it has no square root. This implies the following: Let $g in G$. Apply the isomorphism to get the representation of $g$ as an element in the direct product above: $g = (g', g_1, ..., g_k)$, where $g' in mathbb{G}_q$ and $g_i$ is in the $i$'th $mathbb{Z}_2$. If there exists $i$ such that $g_i$ is not the unit element, then $g$ does not have a square root.



    On the other hand, if $g_i$ is the unit element in all copies of $mathbb{G}_2$, then the problem reduces to the case of a group of odd order: you just raise $g$ to the power of $frac{q+1}{2}$.




    Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?




    No. The above explains this too. Actually, for the above, you don't need to know $m$ (which is typically the case).




    Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element is equal to $g^k$?




    The above addresses this too, since it fully describes the set of squares in the group.



    EDIT:



    In "Oded Goldreich, Computational complexity: a conceptual perspective" it is shown that finding square roots modulo composite numbers is a computational problem equivalent to integer factorization. Hence, don't expect any "general purpose" algorithm, only algorithm for special cases. One such case is the multiplicative group of invertible element in a field of prime size $p$ - called Tonelli-Shanks.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$



    TL;DR: Efficient algorithm only exist in specific cases. The problem, in its full generality (finite abelian groups) is equivalent to the integer factorization problem.




    How can we effectively compute the square root of an element in a group?




    One case where we can compute a square root is when the group order is known and it is odd.
    Any element $g$ in a group has the following property: if $q$ is the order of the group, then $g^q=1$. This is due to Lagrage's Theorem. Equivalently, $g^{q+1}=g$. If $q$ is odd then $frac{q+1}{2}$ is an integer, hence we can compute $h:= g^{frac{q+1}{2}}$, which is a square root of $g$.



    Another case is the following: Assume $G$ is isomorphic to the direct product group of $k$ copies of the group of order 2 and a group of order odd $q$:
    $$
    G simeq mathbb{G}_q times prod_{i=1}^k mathbb{Z}_2
    $$

    where $mathbb{G}_q$ denotes a group of order $q$ and $mathbb{Z}_2$ the group of order 2. Also, importantly, assume you know how to compute this isomorphism.



    In the group of order 2, the non-unit element is its own inverse, hence it has no square root. This implies the following: Let $g in G$. Apply the isomorphism to get the representation of $g$ as an element in the direct product above: $g = (g', g_1, ..., g_k)$, where $g' in mathbb{G}_q$ and $g_i$ is in the $i$'th $mathbb{Z}_2$. If there exists $i$ such that $g_i$ is not the unit element, then $g$ does not have a square root.



    On the other hand, if $g_i$ is the unit element in all copies of $mathbb{G}_2$, then the problem reduces to the case of a group of odd order: you just raise $g$ to the power of $frac{q+1}{2}$.




    Another question, if $m$ is an odd number, can we be sure there is no answer?




    No. The above explains this too. Actually, for the above, you don't need to know $m$ (which is typically the case).




    Is it possible to find another generator $g_1$ and an even number $k$ that satisfy the element is equal to $g^k$?




    The above addresses this too, since it fully describes the set of squares in the group.



    EDIT:



    In "Oded Goldreich, Computational complexity: a conceptual perspective" it is shown that finding square roots modulo composite numbers is a computational problem equivalent to integer factorization. Hence, don't expect any "general purpose" algorithm, only algorithm for special cases. One such case is the multiplicative group of invertible element in a field of prime size $p$ - called Tonelli-Shanks.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 13 hours ago

























    answered 2 days ago









    ChipotleChipotle

    5792 silver badges10 bronze badges




    5792 silver badges10 bronze badges











    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Maybe you did it as a simplification, but your decomposition as a product of groups does not always work. Example : $mathbb Z/2^kmathbb Z$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb Z/2mathbb Z)^k$.
      $endgroup$
      – LeoDucas
      yesterday












    • $begingroup$
      @LeoDucas Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I edited.
      $endgroup$
      – Chipotle
      yesterday














    • 1




      $begingroup$
      Maybe you did it as a simplification, but your decomposition as a product of groups does not always work. Example : $mathbb Z/2^kmathbb Z$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb Z/2mathbb Z)^k$.
      $endgroup$
      – LeoDucas
      yesterday












    • $begingroup$
      @LeoDucas Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I edited.
      $endgroup$
      – Chipotle
      yesterday








    1




    1




    $begingroup$
    Maybe you did it as a simplification, but your decomposition as a product of groups does not always work. Example : $mathbb Z/2^kmathbb Z$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb Z/2mathbb Z)^k$.
    $endgroup$
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday






    $begingroup$
    Maybe you did it as a simplification, but your decomposition as a product of groups does not always work. Example : $mathbb Z/2^kmathbb Z$ is not isomorphic to $(mathbb Z/2mathbb Z)^k$.
    $endgroup$
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday














    $begingroup$
    @LeoDucas Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I edited.
    $endgroup$
    – Chipotle
    yesterday




    $begingroup$
    @LeoDucas Yes, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out. I edited.
    $endgroup$
    – Chipotle
    yesterday













    1













    $begingroup$

    In a generic group, I don't know if it exists really a generic algorithm to solve your problem, but if you group is also a field ($mathbb{Z}_p$ with $p$ a prime number for example), then you can use the Berlekamp algorithm to factorize $X^2 -x$ where $x$ is your element.



    I made an error, I've deleted the wrong part.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$




















      1













      $begingroup$

      In a generic group, I don't know if it exists really a generic algorithm to solve your problem, but if you group is also a field ($mathbb{Z}_p$ with $p$ a prime number for example), then you can use the Berlekamp algorithm to factorize $X^2 -x$ where $x$ is your element.



      I made an error, I've deleted the wrong part.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$


















        1














        1










        1







        $begingroup$

        In a generic group, I don't know if it exists really a generic algorithm to solve your problem, but if you group is also a field ($mathbb{Z}_p$ with $p$ a prime number for example), then you can use the Berlekamp algorithm to factorize $X^2 -x$ where $x$ is your element.



        I made an error, I've deleted the wrong part.






        share|improve this answer











        $endgroup$



        In a generic group, I don't know if it exists really a generic algorithm to solve your problem, but if you group is also a field ($mathbb{Z}_p$ with $p$ a prime number for example), then you can use the Berlekamp algorithm to factorize $X^2 -x$ where $x$ is your element.



        I made an error, I've deleted the wrong part.







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 2 days ago

























        answered 2 days ago









        IevgeniIevgeni

        577 bronze badges




        577 bronze badges

























            Ray James is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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            Ray James is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















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