Isn't that (two voices leaping to C like this) a breaking of the rules of four-part harmony?Hidden fifths...
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Isn't that (two voices leaping to C like this) a breaking of the rules of four-part harmony?
Hidden fifths between tenor and soprano in Tchaikovsky's “Guide to harmony”Latin jazz: anticipated chord change on last beatHarmonising cadences given the bass line. When and when not to use inversions?Tonal harmony: 18th century counterpoint vs. Accessible contemporary harmony and compositionIs this a form of cadence?Harmony - four part vocal style and pianoforte styleDo we hear bass/baritone solo melody lines as being implicitly “on top of” the accompaniment, for harmonic purposesIs it wrong to have two voices move from a perfect fifth to a perfect octave?Are these upper voices in this final passage from Handel a bona fide F7 chord or some kind of non-chord tones?Hidden fifths between tenor and soprano in Tchaikovsky's “Guide to harmony”
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In this arrangement of O God, our help in ages past I have found what looks like a breaking of the rule of harmony.
In bar 1 we have I/3-vi. The tenor leaps up to C and the Soprano does the same. Isn't that a breaking of the rules of four-part harmony?
It sounds like the tenor actually should have walked up to A instead of C.
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
harmony
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
add a comment |
In this arrangement of O God, our help in ages past I have found what looks like a breaking of the rule of harmony.
In bar 1 we have I/3-vi. The tenor leaps up to C and the Soprano does the same. Isn't that a breaking of the rules of four-part harmony?
It sounds like the tenor actually should have walked up to A instead of C.
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
harmony
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
Yes, this is not conform with the rules, but in my opinion it is not a serious crime.
– Albrecht Hügli
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In this arrangement of O God, our help in ages past I have found what looks like a breaking of the rule of harmony.
In bar 1 we have I/3-vi. The tenor leaps up to C and the Soprano does the same. Isn't that a breaking of the rules of four-part harmony?
It sounds like the tenor actually should have walked up to A instead of C.
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
harmony
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
In this arrangement of O God, our help in ages past I have found what looks like a breaking of the rule of harmony.
In bar 1 we have I/3-vi. The tenor leaps up to C and the Soprano does the same. Isn't that a breaking of the rules of four-part harmony?
It sounds like the tenor actually should have walked up to A instead of C.
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
harmony
harmony
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
asked 9 hours ago
HankHank
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
7156 silver badges22 bronze badges
Yes, this is not conform with the rules, but in my opinion it is not a serious crime.
– Albrecht Hügli
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Yes, this is not conform with the rules, but in my opinion it is not a serious crime.
– Albrecht Hügli
5 hours ago
Yes, this is not conform with the rules, but in my opinion it is not a serious crime.
– Albrecht Hügli
5 hours ago
Yes, this is not conform with the rules, but in my opinion it is not a serious crime.
– Albrecht Hügli
5 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Well, this is a piano reduction where the voicing is absent. My guess is that the tenor is supposed to leap to E (well in the tenor realm) while the alto sticks with its previous tenacity at C. In which case this would be a voice inversion in singing and not a strict violation of "no octave parallels, please". Check the vocal score for comparison. Of course, if your interpretation is right also for the vocal score, that is a pretty bland case of octave parallels.
[Edit] After looking for the score online, I've seen a version where the chord before the leap does not have the G in the tenor (which presumably shares the E with the bass). There are other places in the score with just 3 different notes in the voices, so this seems like a simpler explanation. However, the version I found is also without lyrics, so it may also be the case that it is a different piano reduction where the arranger ripped out the octave parallel.
So finding a vocal variant still seems like the smartest idea.
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
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1
The four-part vocal arrangement I have easiest to hand (New English Hymnal) doubles the major third on chord 3 (F major) and 4 (C first inversion). That's probably more acceptable than parallels.
– Andrew Leach
8 hours ago
It's not clear whether your adjective "bland" is intended to suggest that the harmonic interest is undermined by the presence of the parallel leap, or to suggest that the crime is relatively insignificant because the parallel octave does not call undue attention to itself. I'd lean toward the latter interpretation since this seems a reasonable place to accent the melody (thus the attention isn't "undue") and also, as a practical matter, having the tenors sing along with the melodic leap could help the congregation find the right note.
– supercat
25 mins ago
add a comment |
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
I think this is a more pleasant solution:
found in:
[PDF]
O God, Our Help in Ages Past - Hymnary.org
https://hymnary.org › media › fetch
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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Well, this is a piano reduction where the voicing is absent. My guess is that the tenor is supposed to leap to E (well in the tenor realm) while the alto sticks with its previous tenacity at C. In which case this would be a voice inversion in singing and not a strict violation of "no octave parallels, please". Check the vocal score for comparison. Of course, if your interpretation is right also for the vocal score, that is a pretty bland case of octave parallels.
[Edit] After looking for the score online, I've seen a version where the chord before the leap does not have the G in the tenor (which presumably shares the E with the bass). There are other places in the score with just 3 different notes in the voices, so this seems like a simpler explanation. However, the version I found is also without lyrics, so it may also be the case that it is a different piano reduction where the arranger ripped out the octave parallel.
So finding a vocal variant still seems like the smartest idea.
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
New contributor
user63046 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
The four-part vocal arrangement I have easiest to hand (New English Hymnal) doubles the major third on chord 3 (F major) and 4 (C first inversion). That's probably more acceptable than parallels.
– Andrew Leach
8 hours ago
It's not clear whether your adjective "bland" is intended to suggest that the harmonic interest is undermined by the presence of the parallel leap, or to suggest that the crime is relatively insignificant because the parallel octave does not call undue attention to itself. I'd lean toward the latter interpretation since this seems a reasonable place to accent the melody (thus the attention isn't "undue") and also, as a practical matter, having the tenors sing along with the melodic leap could help the congregation find the right note.
– supercat
25 mins ago
add a comment |
Well, this is a piano reduction where the voicing is absent. My guess is that the tenor is supposed to leap to E (well in the tenor realm) while the alto sticks with its previous tenacity at C. In which case this would be a voice inversion in singing and not a strict violation of "no octave parallels, please". Check the vocal score for comparison. Of course, if your interpretation is right also for the vocal score, that is a pretty bland case of octave parallels.
[Edit] After looking for the score online, I've seen a version where the chord before the leap does not have the G in the tenor (which presumably shares the E with the bass). There are other places in the score with just 3 different notes in the voices, so this seems like a simpler explanation. However, the version I found is also without lyrics, so it may also be the case that it is a different piano reduction where the arranger ripped out the octave parallel.
So finding a vocal variant still seems like the smartest idea.
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
New contributor
user63046 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
The four-part vocal arrangement I have easiest to hand (New English Hymnal) doubles the major third on chord 3 (F major) and 4 (C first inversion). That's probably more acceptable than parallels.
– Andrew Leach
8 hours ago
It's not clear whether your adjective "bland" is intended to suggest that the harmonic interest is undermined by the presence of the parallel leap, or to suggest that the crime is relatively insignificant because the parallel octave does not call undue attention to itself. I'd lean toward the latter interpretation since this seems a reasonable place to accent the melody (thus the attention isn't "undue") and also, as a practical matter, having the tenors sing along with the melodic leap could help the congregation find the right note.
– supercat
25 mins ago
add a comment |
Well, this is a piano reduction where the voicing is absent. My guess is that the tenor is supposed to leap to E (well in the tenor realm) while the alto sticks with its previous tenacity at C. In which case this would be a voice inversion in singing and not a strict violation of "no octave parallels, please". Check the vocal score for comparison. Of course, if your interpretation is right also for the vocal score, that is a pretty bland case of octave parallels.
[Edit] After looking for the score online, I've seen a version where the chord before the leap does not have the G in the tenor (which presumably shares the E with the bass). There are other places in the score with just 3 different notes in the voices, so this seems like a simpler explanation. However, the version I found is also without lyrics, so it may also be the case that it is a different piano reduction where the arranger ripped out the octave parallel.
So finding a vocal variant still seems like the smartest idea.
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
New contributor
user63046 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Well, this is a piano reduction where the voicing is absent. My guess is that the tenor is supposed to leap to E (well in the tenor realm) while the alto sticks with its previous tenacity at C. In which case this would be a voice inversion in singing and not a strict violation of "no octave parallels, please". Check the vocal score for comparison. Of course, if your interpretation is right also for the vocal score, that is a pretty bland case of octave parallels.
[Edit] After looking for the score online, I've seen a version where the chord before the leap does not have the G in the tenor (which presumably shares the E with the bass). There are other places in the score with just 3 different notes in the voices, so this seems like a simpler explanation. However, the version I found is also without lyrics, so it may also be the case that it is a different piano reduction where the arranger ripped out the octave parallel.
So finding a vocal variant still seems like the smartest idea.
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
New contributor
user63046 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 8 hours ago
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
New contributor
user63046 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
answered 9 hours ago
user63046user63046
212 bronze badges
212 bronze badges
New contributor
user63046 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
user63046 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
The four-part vocal arrangement I have easiest to hand (New English Hymnal) doubles the major third on chord 3 (F major) and 4 (C first inversion). That's probably more acceptable than parallels.
– Andrew Leach
8 hours ago
It's not clear whether your adjective "bland" is intended to suggest that the harmonic interest is undermined by the presence of the parallel leap, or to suggest that the crime is relatively insignificant because the parallel octave does not call undue attention to itself. I'd lean toward the latter interpretation since this seems a reasonable place to accent the melody (thus the attention isn't "undue") and also, as a practical matter, having the tenors sing along with the melodic leap could help the congregation find the right note.
– supercat
25 mins ago
add a comment |
1
The four-part vocal arrangement I have easiest to hand (New English Hymnal) doubles the major third on chord 3 (F major) and 4 (C first inversion). That's probably more acceptable than parallels.
– Andrew Leach
8 hours ago
It's not clear whether your adjective "bland" is intended to suggest that the harmonic interest is undermined by the presence of the parallel leap, or to suggest that the crime is relatively insignificant because the parallel octave does not call undue attention to itself. I'd lean toward the latter interpretation since this seems a reasonable place to accent the melody (thus the attention isn't "undue") and also, as a practical matter, having the tenors sing along with the melodic leap could help the congregation find the right note.
– supercat
25 mins ago
1
1
The four-part vocal arrangement I have easiest to hand (New English Hymnal) doubles the major third on chord 3 (F major) and 4 (C first inversion). That's probably more acceptable than parallels.
– Andrew Leach
8 hours ago
The four-part vocal arrangement I have easiest to hand (New English Hymnal) doubles the major third on chord 3 (F major) and 4 (C first inversion). That's probably more acceptable than parallels.
– Andrew Leach
8 hours ago
It's not clear whether your adjective "bland" is intended to suggest that the harmonic interest is undermined by the presence of the parallel leap, or to suggest that the crime is relatively insignificant because the parallel octave does not call undue attention to itself. I'd lean toward the latter interpretation since this seems a reasonable place to accent the melody (thus the attention isn't "undue") and also, as a practical matter, having the tenors sing along with the melodic leap could help the congregation find the right note.
– supercat
25 mins ago
It's not clear whether your adjective "bland" is intended to suggest that the harmonic interest is undermined by the presence of the parallel leap, or to suggest that the crime is relatively insignificant because the parallel octave does not call undue attention to itself. I'd lean toward the latter interpretation since this seems a reasonable place to accent the melody (thus the attention isn't "undue") and also, as a practical matter, having the tenors sing along with the melodic leap could help the congregation find the right note.
– supercat
25 mins ago
add a comment |
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
I think this is a more pleasant solution:
found in:
[PDF]
O God, Our Help in Ages Past - Hymnary.org
https://hymnary.org › media › fetch
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
add a comment |
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
I think this is a more pleasant solution:
found in:
[PDF]
O God, Our Help in Ages Past - Hymnary.org
https://hymnary.org › media › fetch
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
add a comment |
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
I think this is a more pleasant solution:
found in:
[PDF]
O God, Our Help in Ages Past - Hymnary.org
https://hymnary.org › media › fetch
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
How should the voices in I/3 have moved to the next chord and what chord should that have been?
I think this is a more pleasant solution:
found in:
[PDF]
O God, Our Help in Ages Past - Hymnary.org
https://hymnary.org › media › fetch
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
answered 5 hours ago
Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
7,2171 gold badge7 silver badges26 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Yes, this is not conform with the rules, but in my opinion it is not a serious crime.
– Albrecht Hügli
5 hours ago