Mdthbs

Is the value of a probability density function for a given input a point, a range, or both?

Paper status "Accept with Shepherd". What does it really mean?

'The Kukhtarev's model' or 'Kukhtarev's model' ('John's car' or 'The John's car')?

Variable fixing based on a good feasible solution

Skewer removal without quick release

Do businesses save their customers' credit card information until the payment is finalized?

How can a company compel a W2 employee to sign a non-compete agreement?

Dynamics m, r, s, and z. What do they mean?

I got this nail stuck in my tire, should I plug or replace?

Unable to sync Windows 10 time with time servers

Usefulness of Nash embedding theorem

What is the design rationale for having armor and magic penetration mechanics?

How to respond to "Why didn't you do a postdoc after your PhD?"

How should I tell a professor the answer to something he doesn't know?

Incorrect mmap behavior when assembly files in included in the project

What does the British parliament hope to achieve by requesting a third Brexit extension?

Can there be an atomic nucleus where there are more protons than neutrons?

What happens if a geocentric model of the world were correct?

Is a light year a different distance if measured from a moving object?

7 mentions of night in Gospel of John

How can a "proper" function have a vertical slope?

Will the size of Bitcoin core full-node be too big to run on a normal computer?

Pass a bash variable to python script

Did smallpox emerge in 1580?

Why increase or decrease rudder when using elevator in turns?

When was the first rudder on an aircraft used?Why does rudder cause roll?Why is using opposite rudder and aileron necessary in left turn for coordination?What is a skidding turn (vs slipping turn)?How do pilots make rudder inputs during negative G flight?Do aerodynamic forces and moments change aircraft pitch and yaw in the same way?When does an airliner switch from using the tiller to the rudder?Why do aircraft have a crossover airspeed, and why does it increase at higher vertical load factors?Why does the A320 use the rudder for lateral control in mechanical law?

.everyoneloves__top-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__mid-leaderboard:empty,.everyoneloves__bot-mid-leaderboard:empty{
margin-bottom:0;
}

4

1

$begingroup$

In normal 30 degree bank level turns, instructors teach students that if you are to correct your altitude you also need to change your rudder input.
Why is that?

For example if you are descending in your turn you are to pull the elevator and also lessen your rudder input. And if you are climbing in your turn you are to push the elevator and push more rudder.

Is this because of you are tightening your turn when pulling elevator and therefore you are starting to skid and therefore you need to lessen your rudder to compensate. And if you are pushing the elevator you are doint the opposite starting to slip and therefore you need more rudder.

Or is there some other explaination to why you need to do this?

rudder skid

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

ABCABC

2111 bronze badge

New contributor

ABC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Can you give more detail on where you heard this? From several different instructors? In what aircraft? In what country? I don't think I've ever had an instructor tell me this. Langewiesche says something kind of the reverse of this in "Stick in Rudder"-- he says sometimes you want to use the elevator not the rudder to center the ball, especially in a slip (ball to low side of turn), but I've not found that to be accurate either. We find the same statement in some of the earlier editions of "Modern Airmanship", but it was deleted from later ones.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Are you sure they weren't suggesting to roll out a little bit (decrease the bank angle) to help stop a descent? This input would involve coordinated use of ailerons and rudder. If you were basically carrying a significant into-the-turn rudder input throughout the circle, I can see where rolling out might use a touch of rolling-out aileron and a little relaxing of the into-the-turn rudder but still holding some into-the-turn rudder. And sort of the opposite to help stop a climb. Sorry, that might be a bit hard to follow.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Still, for turns that are only banked 30 degrees, I would think most instructors would not teach to use changes in bank angle to help stop a climb or descent. That is more appropriate for much steeper turns, in my opinion. Anyway, please try to tell us a little more if you can.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

4

1

$begingroup$

In normal 30 degree bank level turns, instructors teach students that if you are to correct your altitude you also need to change your rudder input.
Why is that?

For example if you are descending in your turn you are to pull the elevator and also lessen your rudder input. And if you are climbing in your turn you are to push the elevator and push more rudder.

Is this because of you are tightening your turn when pulling elevator and therefore you are starting to skid and therefore you need to lessen your rudder to compensate. And if you are pushing the elevator you are doint the opposite starting to slip and therefore you need more rudder.

Or is there some other explaination to why you need to do this?

rudder skid

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

ABCABC

2111 bronze badge

New contributor

ABC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Can you give more detail on where you heard this? From several different instructors? In what aircraft? In what country? I don't think I've ever had an instructor tell me this. Langewiesche says something kind of the reverse of this in "Stick in Rudder"-- he says sometimes you want to use the elevator not the rudder to center the ball, especially in a slip (ball to low side of turn), but I've not found that to be accurate either. We find the same statement in some of the earlier editions of "Modern Airmanship", but it was deleted from later ones.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Are you sure they weren't suggesting to roll out a little bit (decrease the bank angle) to help stop a descent? This input would involve coordinated use of ailerons and rudder. If you were basically carrying a significant into-the-turn rudder input throughout the circle, I can see where rolling out might use a touch of rolling-out aileron and a little relaxing of the into-the-turn rudder but still holding some into-the-turn rudder. And sort of the opposite to help stop a climb. Sorry, that might be a bit hard to follow.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  7 hours ago
  
  
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Still, for turns that are only banked 30 degrees, I would think most instructors would not teach to use changes in bank angle to help stop a climb or descent. That is more appropriate for much steeper turns, in my opinion. Anyway, please try to tell us a little more if you can.
  $endgroup$
  – quiet flyer
  7 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

$begingroup$

In normal 30 degree bank level turns, instructors teach students that if you are to correct your altitude you also need to change your rudder input.
Why is that?

For example if you are descending in your turn you are to pull the elevator and also lessen your rudder input. And if you are climbing in your turn you are to push the elevator and push more rudder.

Is this because of you are tightening your turn when pulling elevator and therefore you are starting to skid and therefore you need to lessen your rudder to compensate. And if you are pushing the elevator you are doint the opposite starting to slip and therefore you need more rudder.

Or is there some other explaination to why you need to do this?

rudder skid

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

ABCABC

2111 bronze badge

New contributor

ABC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

$endgroup$

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

ABCABC

2111 bronze badge

New contributor

ABC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

share|improve this question

asked 9 hours ago

ABCABC

2111 bronze badge

New contributor

ABC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

asked 9 hours ago

ABCABC

2111 bronze badge

New contributor

ABC is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.

asked 9 hours ago

ABCABC

2111 bronze badge

1 Answer
1

active

oldest

votes

7

$begingroup$

Instructors that teach that to students are fools. You should be using rudder only as required to keep the ball centered - period. If you are applying rudder to influence the pitch attitude, to "help hold the nose up", this is very very bad, and leads to stall/spin accidents.

Rudder is mostly being used to counteract adverse yaw from the aileron inputs, and to some degree to correct for yawing motions caused by power changes. But in any case it is strictly used to keep the tail lined up behind the nose in the airstream. Anything else and you are skidding or slipping in the turn.

If you are in a 30 deg banked turn, and are descending, the total lift from the wings is insufficient; you need more elevator input, NOT top rudder, which creates a slipping turn, which will make the airplane flick over the top into a spin if you stall while doing it.

Don't overthink it. Ailerons to keep the bank angle, elevator/power to control the pitch and altitude/speed, rudder to center the ball; just do whatever it takes.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

John KJohn K

43.4k11 gold badge7878 silver badges150150 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  John, also, add power in a turn to stop descending to avoid excessive AOA with elevator.
  $endgroup$
  – Robert DiGiovanni
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Of course. It's pitch/power together for speed/altitude control.
  $endgroup$
  – John K
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

Your Answer

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "528"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/"u003ecc by-sa 4.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});

ABC is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.

draft saved

draft discarded

Sign up or log in

StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});

Sign up using Google

Sign up using Facebook

Sign up using Email and Password

Post as a guest

Name

Email

Required, but never shown

StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2faviation.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f70418%2fwhy-increase-or-decrease-rudder-when-using-elevator-in-turns%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest

Name

Email

Required, but never shown

7

$begingroup$

Instructors that teach that to students are fools. You should be using rudder only as required to keep the ball centered - period. If you are applying rudder to influence the pitch attitude, to "help hold the nose up", this is very very bad, and leads to stall/spin accidents.

Rudder is mostly being used to counteract adverse yaw from the aileron inputs, and to some degree to correct for yawing motions caused by power changes. But in any case it is strictly used to keep the tail lined up behind the nose in the airstream. Anything else and you are skidding or slipping in the turn.

If you are in a 30 deg banked turn, and are descending, the total lift from the wings is insufficient; you need more elevator input, NOT top rudder, which creates a slipping turn, which will make the airplane flick over the top into a spin if you stall while doing it.

Don't overthink it. Ailerons to keep the bank angle, elevator/power to control the pitch and altitude/speed, rudder to center the ball; just do whatever it takes.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

John KJohn K

43.4k11 gold badge7878 silver badges150150 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  John, also, add power in a turn to stop descending to avoid excessive AOA with elevator.
  $endgroup$
  – Robert DiGiovanni
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Of course. It's pitch/power together for speed/altitude control.
  $endgroup$
  – John K
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

7

$begingroup$

Instructors that teach that to students are fools. You should be using rudder only as required to keep the ball centered - period. If you are applying rudder to influence the pitch attitude, to "help hold the nose up", this is very very bad, and leads to stall/spin accidents.

Rudder is mostly being used to counteract adverse yaw from the aileron inputs, and to some degree to correct for yawing motions caused by power changes. But in any case it is strictly used to keep the tail lined up behind the nose in the airstream. Anything else and you are skidding or slipping in the turn.

If you are in a 30 deg banked turn, and are descending, the total lift from the wings is insufficient; you need more elevator input, NOT top rudder, which creates a slipping turn, which will make the airplane flick over the top into a spin if you stall while doing it.

Don't overthink it. Ailerons to keep the bank angle, elevator/power to control the pitch and altitude/speed, rudder to center the ball; just do whatever it takes.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

John KJohn K

43.4k11 gold badge7878 silver badges150150 bronze badges

$endgroup$

• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  John, also, add power in a turn to stop descending to avoid excessive AOA with elevator.
  $endgroup$
  – Robert DiGiovanni
  6 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  


• 
  
  
  

  
  

  
  
  
  
  
  

  
  $begingroup$
  Of course. It's pitch/power together for speed/altitude control.
  $endgroup$
  – John K
  5 hours ago
  

  
  
  
  

add a comment
 | 

$begingroup$

Instructors that teach that to students are fools. You should be using rudder only as required to keep the ball centered - period. If you are applying rudder to influence the pitch attitude, to "help hold the nose up", this is very very bad, and leads to stall/spin accidents.

Rudder is mostly being used to counteract adverse yaw from the aileron inputs, and to some degree to correct for yawing motions caused by power changes. But in any case it is strictly used to keep the tail lined up behind the nose in the airstream. Anything else and you are skidding or slipping in the turn.

If you are in a 30 deg banked turn, and are descending, the total lift from the wings is insufficient; you need more elevator input, NOT top rudder, which creates a slipping turn, which will make the airplane flick over the top into a spin if you stall while doing it.

Don't overthink it. Ailerons to keep the bank angle, elevator/power to control the pitch and altitude/speed, rudder to center the ball; just do whatever it takes.

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

John KJohn K

43.4k11 gold badge7878 silver badges150150 bronze badges

$endgroup$

share|improve this answer

edited 5 hours ago

answered 7 hours ago

John KJohn K

43.4k11 gold badge7878 silver badges150150 bronze badges

answered 7 hours ago

John KJohn K

43.4k11 gold badge7878 silver badges150150 bronze badges

answered 7 hours ago

John KJohn K

43.4k11 gold badge7878 silver badges150150 bronze badges