Why cruise at 7000' in an A319?Why do airliners pitch up during cruise?Why was there a rattling noise coming...
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Why cruise at 7000' in an A319?
Why do airliners pitch up during cruise?Why was there a rattling noise coming from the left engine of A319?Why are many jet aircraft designed to cruise around FL350-370?Can cruise pilots/second officers go for years without doing a takeoff or landing?Which cruise altitude is prefered in engine-out operations of Boeing airplanes?What is a Cruise Captain?Why is the normal operating airspeed so much lower than the cruise speed in this table?Is there research suggesting that VFR cruise altitude rules improve safety?Wind vs high altitude cruiseWhat do pilots like to avoid during cruise flight?
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$begingroup$
I was on a flight from Philadelphia (KPHL) to Boston (KBOS), after some delay and some change of route due to weather, the captain announced that we will be cruising at 7000' due to delays in the area.
The history of the flight is here: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL2606/history/20190618/2235Z/KPHL/KBOS
My question is two fold:
- Why cruise so low with such an aircraft (A319)?
- What is the impact on fuel consumption, knowing that we were also slower?
airbus-a320 altitude cruise fuel-consumption air-traffic-management
$endgroup$
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I was on a flight from Philadelphia (KPHL) to Boston (KBOS), after some delay and some change of route due to weather, the captain announced that we will be cruising at 7000' due to delays in the area.
The history of the flight is here: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL2606/history/20190618/2235Z/KPHL/KBOS
My question is two fold:
- Why cruise so low with such an aircraft (A319)?
- What is the impact on fuel consumption, knowing that we were also slower?
airbus-a320 altitude cruise fuel-consumption air-traffic-management
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
At that altitude, it is a violation of 14 CFR 19.117 to exceed 250 KIAS. I doubt this flight actually flew at 7,000. Flight Aware says it was filed for 17,000ft, and I suspect it actually flew at that height, but due to some technical error, the 10,000 part may have been left off?
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Even 17000 is pretty low. The fuel burn would have been brutal.
$endgroup$
– John K
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looking through the history, the flight is typically filed for about 23,000
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@abelenky FR24 also showed it at 7000' so I think they really flew that low (and reported at ~290kts ground speed so probably 250KIAS). Although it's very curious indeed.
$endgroup$
– Sanchises
13 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I check with my phone gps it was 7000ft approx and the view to the ground was consistent with a flight that low. They also served drinks.
$endgroup$
– Brice
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
I was on a flight from Philadelphia (KPHL) to Boston (KBOS), after some delay and some change of route due to weather, the captain announced that we will be cruising at 7000' due to delays in the area.
The history of the flight is here: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL2606/history/20190618/2235Z/KPHL/KBOS
My question is two fold:
- Why cruise so low with such an aircraft (A319)?
- What is the impact on fuel consumption, knowing that we were also slower?
airbus-a320 altitude cruise fuel-consumption air-traffic-management
$endgroup$
I was on a flight from Philadelphia (KPHL) to Boston (KBOS), after some delay and some change of route due to weather, the captain announced that we will be cruising at 7000' due to delays in the area.
The history of the flight is here: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL2606/history/20190618/2235Z/KPHL/KBOS
My question is two fold:
- Why cruise so low with such an aircraft (A319)?
- What is the impact on fuel consumption, knowing that we were also slower?
airbus-a320 altitude cruise fuel-consumption air-traffic-management
airbus-a320 altitude cruise fuel-consumption air-traffic-management
edited 9 hours ago
ymb1
75.3k9 gold badges244 silver badges404 bronze badges
75.3k9 gold badges244 silver badges404 bronze badges
asked 13 hours ago
BriceBrice
665 bronze badges
665 bronze badges
2
$begingroup$
At that altitude, it is a violation of 14 CFR 19.117 to exceed 250 KIAS. I doubt this flight actually flew at 7,000. Flight Aware says it was filed for 17,000ft, and I suspect it actually flew at that height, but due to some technical error, the 10,000 part may have been left off?
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Even 17000 is pretty low. The fuel burn would have been brutal.
$endgroup$
– John K
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looking through the history, the flight is typically filed for about 23,000
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@abelenky FR24 also showed it at 7000' so I think they really flew that low (and reported at ~290kts ground speed so probably 250KIAS). Although it's very curious indeed.
$endgroup$
– Sanchises
13 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I check with my phone gps it was 7000ft approx and the view to the ground was consistent with a flight that low. They also served drinks.
$endgroup$
– Brice
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
2
$begingroup$
At that altitude, it is a violation of 14 CFR 19.117 to exceed 250 KIAS. I doubt this flight actually flew at 7,000. Flight Aware says it was filed for 17,000ft, and I suspect it actually flew at that height, but due to some technical error, the 10,000 part may have been left off?
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Even 17000 is pretty low. The fuel burn would have been brutal.
$endgroup$
– John K
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looking through the history, the flight is typically filed for about 23,000
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@abelenky FR24 also showed it at 7000' so I think they really flew that low (and reported at ~290kts ground speed so probably 250KIAS). Although it's very curious indeed.
$endgroup$
– Sanchises
13 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
I check with my phone gps it was 7000ft approx and the view to the ground was consistent with a flight that low. They also served drinks.
$endgroup$
– Brice
7 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
At that altitude, it is a violation of 14 CFR 19.117 to exceed 250 KIAS. I doubt this flight actually flew at 7,000. Flight Aware says it was filed for 17,000ft, and I suspect it actually flew at that height, but due to some technical error, the 10,000 part may have been left off?
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
At that altitude, it is a violation of 14 CFR 19.117 to exceed 250 KIAS. I doubt this flight actually flew at 7,000. Flight Aware says it was filed for 17,000ft, and I suspect it actually flew at that height, but due to some technical error, the 10,000 part may have been left off?
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Even 17000 is pretty low. The fuel burn would have been brutal.
$endgroup$
– John K
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Even 17000 is pretty low. The fuel burn would have been brutal.
$endgroup$
– John K
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looking through the history, the flight is typically filed for about 23,000
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
Looking through the history, the flight is typically filed for about 23,000
$endgroup$
– abelenky
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@abelenky FR24 also showed it at 7000' so I think they really flew that low (and reported at ~290kts ground speed so probably 250KIAS). Although it's very curious indeed.
$endgroup$
– Sanchises
13 hours ago
$begingroup$
@abelenky FR24 also showed it at 7000' so I think they really flew that low (and reported at ~290kts ground speed so probably 250KIAS). Although it's very curious indeed.
$endgroup$
– Sanchises
13 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
I check with my phone gps it was 7000ft approx and the view to the ground was consistent with a flight that low. They also served drinks.
$endgroup$
– Brice
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
I check with my phone gps it was 7000ft approx and the view to the ground was consistent with a flight that low. They also served drinks.
$endgroup$
– Brice
7 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The only reason for your flight to operate at such low altitude is because it is cheaper for them to do so.
1) As you said it is due to weather, other route/altitude may not be available. They can cancel the flight but that is likely to be costly. They may have to find accomodation for you and crew until they can put you to the next flight. Sub-optimal flight maybe better than no flight in this case.
2) They may need that aircraft at that location the next day. If they choose to cancel your flight today, they will have to find a way to have this aircraft or another aircraft to fill in for the required flight the next day. They might as well fly a slightly more expensive flight at lower altitude rather than fly an empty plane to Boston.
3) It is possible for them to wait for weather to improve but there is an issue of crew working hour. A pilot cannot work more than 8 hours in a day without provision for additional crew. They may approach that limit and the wait for weather to improve might means the airline has to provide another crew for the flight and might mess up crew schedule for the next few days.
So for the airline, in this case, flying lower and slower maybe a better option for them. Hence higher fuel comsumption is better than no flight.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As you've seen from FlightAware, the route was longer because it was around the weather (turn on weather overlay if it is disabled).
I used the playback function of Flightradar24 for the 18th at 23:00 UTC, and the amount of traffic above 10,000' (filtering by altitude) seemed very normal compared to other days. I'm baffled as to why they flew so low, but I can address your fuel question in some detail.
The decision to go ahead and fly low, as has been covered, is not just about fuel. There is a myriad of direct and indirect costs associated with cancelling a flight, and its knock-on effects.
We can work out an estimate for the extra fuel from the A320-family performance manuals. First we need the distance flown, because as you said, flying slower is a factor (burning fuel for longer). According to FlightAware, the actual distance was ~360 NM (nautical miles).
The performance figures I have only go as low as 10,000', but it's close enough for an estimate. At a weight of 50 tonnes:
At 10,000' each engine burns 1028 kg/h while doing 280 knots true airspeed (indicated airspeed is 242) taking a total of 1.29 hours.
At 29,000' each engine burns 1305 kg/h while doing 462 knots true airspeed taking a total of 0.78 hours.
Therefore, the fuel consumption estimate per engine for this trip is 1326 kg (low altitude) and 1017 kg (high altitude). Having two engines means it's a total extra of only 600 kg. Using North America's jet fuel price of the week, that's $360.
It may seem low, but that can be a good profit on another short-haul flight (volume economics), but it certainly is not disastrous.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Possibly, the flight was too dangerous at a high altitude due to complications in weather, and therefore they decided to fly lower and slower. Flying at 7000' is very fuel-consuming, but they could do it since Philadelphia and Boston are fairly close together.
New contributor
$endgroup$
4
$begingroup$
You generally avoid adverse weather by flying ABOVE it, not below
$endgroup$
– J. Hougaard
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
The only reason for your flight to operate at such low altitude is because it is cheaper for them to do so.
1) As you said it is due to weather, other route/altitude may not be available. They can cancel the flight but that is likely to be costly. They may have to find accomodation for you and crew until they can put you to the next flight. Sub-optimal flight maybe better than no flight in this case.
2) They may need that aircraft at that location the next day. If they choose to cancel your flight today, they will have to find a way to have this aircraft or another aircraft to fill in for the required flight the next day. They might as well fly a slightly more expensive flight at lower altitude rather than fly an empty plane to Boston.
3) It is possible for them to wait for weather to improve but there is an issue of crew working hour. A pilot cannot work more than 8 hours in a day without provision for additional crew. They may approach that limit and the wait for weather to improve might means the airline has to provide another crew for the flight and might mess up crew schedule for the next few days.
So for the airline, in this case, flying lower and slower maybe a better option for them. Hence higher fuel comsumption is better than no flight.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The only reason for your flight to operate at such low altitude is because it is cheaper for them to do so.
1) As you said it is due to weather, other route/altitude may not be available. They can cancel the flight but that is likely to be costly. They may have to find accomodation for you and crew until they can put you to the next flight. Sub-optimal flight maybe better than no flight in this case.
2) They may need that aircraft at that location the next day. If they choose to cancel your flight today, they will have to find a way to have this aircraft or another aircraft to fill in for the required flight the next day. They might as well fly a slightly more expensive flight at lower altitude rather than fly an empty plane to Boston.
3) It is possible for them to wait for weather to improve but there is an issue of crew working hour. A pilot cannot work more than 8 hours in a day without provision for additional crew. They may approach that limit and the wait for weather to improve might means the airline has to provide another crew for the flight and might mess up crew schedule for the next few days.
So for the airline, in this case, flying lower and slower maybe a better option for them. Hence higher fuel comsumption is better than no flight.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The only reason for your flight to operate at such low altitude is because it is cheaper for them to do so.
1) As you said it is due to weather, other route/altitude may not be available. They can cancel the flight but that is likely to be costly. They may have to find accomodation for you and crew until they can put you to the next flight. Sub-optimal flight maybe better than no flight in this case.
2) They may need that aircraft at that location the next day. If they choose to cancel your flight today, they will have to find a way to have this aircraft or another aircraft to fill in for the required flight the next day. They might as well fly a slightly more expensive flight at lower altitude rather than fly an empty plane to Boston.
3) It is possible for them to wait for weather to improve but there is an issue of crew working hour. A pilot cannot work more than 8 hours in a day without provision for additional crew. They may approach that limit and the wait for weather to improve might means the airline has to provide another crew for the flight and might mess up crew schedule for the next few days.
So for the airline, in this case, flying lower and slower maybe a better option for them. Hence higher fuel comsumption is better than no flight.
$endgroup$
The only reason for your flight to operate at such low altitude is because it is cheaper for them to do so.
1) As you said it is due to weather, other route/altitude may not be available. They can cancel the flight but that is likely to be costly. They may have to find accomodation for you and crew until they can put you to the next flight. Sub-optimal flight maybe better than no flight in this case.
2) They may need that aircraft at that location the next day. If they choose to cancel your flight today, they will have to find a way to have this aircraft or another aircraft to fill in for the required flight the next day. They might as well fly a slightly more expensive flight at lower altitude rather than fly an empty plane to Boston.
3) It is possible for them to wait for weather to improve but there is an issue of crew working hour. A pilot cannot work more than 8 hours in a day without provision for additional crew. They may approach that limit and the wait for weather to improve might means the airline has to provide another crew for the flight and might mess up crew schedule for the next few days.
So for the airline, in this case, flying lower and slower maybe a better option for them. Hence higher fuel comsumption is better than no flight.
answered 13 hours ago
vasin1987vasin1987
4,7183 gold badges30 silver badges60 bronze badges
4,7183 gold badges30 silver badges60 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As you've seen from FlightAware, the route was longer because it was around the weather (turn on weather overlay if it is disabled).
I used the playback function of Flightradar24 for the 18th at 23:00 UTC, and the amount of traffic above 10,000' (filtering by altitude) seemed very normal compared to other days. I'm baffled as to why they flew so low, but I can address your fuel question in some detail.
The decision to go ahead and fly low, as has been covered, is not just about fuel. There is a myriad of direct and indirect costs associated with cancelling a flight, and its knock-on effects.
We can work out an estimate for the extra fuel from the A320-family performance manuals. First we need the distance flown, because as you said, flying slower is a factor (burning fuel for longer). According to FlightAware, the actual distance was ~360 NM (nautical miles).
The performance figures I have only go as low as 10,000', but it's close enough for an estimate. At a weight of 50 tonnes:
At 10,000' each engine burns 1028 kg/h while doing 280 knots true airspeed (indicated airspeed is 242) taking a total of 1.29 hours.
At 29,000' each engine burns 1305 kg/h while doing 462 knots true airspeed taking a total of 0.78 hours.
Therefore, the fuel consumption estimate per engine for this trip is 1326 kg (low altitude) and 1017 kg (high altitude). Having two engines means it's a total extra of only 600 kg. Using North America's jet fuel price of the week, that's $360.
It may seem low, but that can be a good profit on another short-haul flight (volume economics), but it certainly is not disastrous.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As you've seen from FlightAware, the route was longer because it was around the weather (turn on weather overlay if it is disabled).
I used the playback function of Flightradar24 for the 18th at 23:00 UTC, and the amount of traffic above 10,000' (filtering by altitude) seemed very normal compared to other days. I'm baffled as to why they flew so low, but I can address your fuel question in some detail.
The decision to go ahead and fly low, as has been covered, is not just about fuel. There is a myriad of direct and indirect costs associated with cancelling a flight, and its knock-on effects.
We can work out an estimate for the extra fuel from the A320-family performance manuals. First we need the distance flown, because as you said, flying slower is a factor (burning fuel for longer). According to FlightAware, the actual distance was ~360 NM (nautical miles).
The performance figures I have only go as low as 10,000', but it's close enough for an estimate. At a weight of 50 tonnes:
At 10,000' each engine burns 1028 kg/h while doing 280 knots true airspeed (indicated airspeed is 242) taking a total of 1.29 hours.
At 29,000' each engine burns 1305 kg/h while doing 462 knots true airspeed taking a total of 0.78 hours.
Therefore, the fuel consumption estimate per engine for this trip is 1326 kg (low altitude) and 1017 kg (high altitude). Having two engines means it's a total extra of only 600 kg. Using North America's jet fuel price of the week, that's $360.
It may seem low, but that can be a good profit on another short-haul flight (volume economics), but it certainly is not disastrous.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As you've seen from FlightAware, the route was longer because it was around the weather (turn on weather overlay if it is disabled).
I used the playback function of Flightradar24 for the 18th at 23:00 UTC, and the amount of traffic above 10,000' (filtering by altitude) seemed very normal compared to other days. I'm baffled as to why they flew so low, but I can address your fuel question in some detail.
The decision to go ahead and fly low, as has been covered, is not just about fuel. There is a myriad of direct and indirect costs associated with cancelling a flight, and its knock-on effects.
We can work out an estimate for the extra fuel from the A320-family performance manuals. First we need the distance flown, because as you said, flying slower is a factor (burning fuel for longer). According to FlightAware, the actual distance was ~360 NM (nautical miles).
The performance figures I have only go as low as 10,000', but it's close enough for an estimate. At a weight of 50 tonnes:
At 10,000' each engine burns 1028 kg/h while doing 280 knots true airspeed (indicated airspeed is 242) taking a total of 1.29 hours.
At 29,000' each engine burns 1305 kg/h while doing 462 knots true airspeed taking a total of 0.78 hours.
Therefore, the fuel consumption estimate per engine for this trip is 1326 kg (low altitude) and 1017 kg (high altitude). Having two engines means it's a total extra of only 600 kg. Using North America's jet fuel price of the week, that's $360.
It may seem low, but that can be a good profit on another short-haul flight (volume economics), but it certainly is not disastrous.
$endgroup$
As you've seen from FlightAware, the route was longer because it was around the weather (turn on weather overlay if it is disabled).
I used the playback function of Flightradar24 for the 18th at 23:00 UTC, and the amount of traffic above 10,000' (filtering by altitude) seemed very normal compared to other days. I'm baffled as to why they flew so low, but I can address your fuel question in some detail.
The decision to go ahead and fly low, as has been covered, is not just about fuel. There is a myriad of direct and indirect costs associated with cancelling a flight, and its knock-on effects.
We can work out an estimate for the extra fuel from the A320-family performance manuals. First we need the distance flown, because as you said, flying slower is a factor (burning fuel for longer). According to FlightAware, the actual distance was ~360 NM (nautical miles).
The performance figures I have only go as low as 10,000', but it's close enough for an estimate. At a weight of 50 tonnes:
At 10,000' each engine burns 1028 kg/h while doing 280 knots true airspeed (indicated airspeed is 242) taking a total of 1.29 hours.
At 29,000' each engine burns 1305 kg/h while doing 462 knots true airspeed taking a total of 0.78 hours.
Therefore, the fuel consumption estimate per engine for this trip is 1326 kg (low altitude) and 1017 kg (high altitude). Having two engines means it's a total extra of only 600 kg. Using North America's jet fuel price of the week, that's $360.
It may seem low, but that can be a good profit on another short-haul flight (volume economics), but it certainly is not disastrous.
answered 9 hours ago
ymb1ymb1
75.3k9 gold badges244 silver badges404 bronze badges
75.3k9 gold badges244 silver badges404 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Possibly, the flight was too dangerous at a high altitude due to complications in weather, and therefore they decided to fly lower and slower. Flying at 7000' is very fuel-consuming, but they could do it since Philadelphia and Boston are fairly close together.
New contributor
$endgroup$
4
$begingroup$
You generally avoid adverse weather by flying ABOVE it, not below
$endgroup$
– J. Hougaard
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Possibly, the flight was too dangerous at a high altitude due to complications in weather, and therefore they decided to fly lower and slower. Flying at 7000' is very fuel-consuming, but they could do it since Philadelphia and Boston are fairly close together.
New contributor
$endgroup$
4
$begingroup$
You generally avoid adverse weather by flying ABOVE it, not below
$endgroup$
– J. Hougaard
9 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Possibly, the flight was too dangerous at a high altitude due to complications in weather, and therefore they decided to fly lower and slower. Flying at 7000' is very fuel-consuming, but they could do it since Philadelphia and Boston are fairly close together.
New contributor
$endgroup$
Possibly, the flight was too dangerous at a high altitude due to complications in weather, and therefore they decided to fly lower and slower. Flying at 7000' is very fuel-consuming, but they could do it since Philadelphia and Boston are fairly close together.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 12 hours ago
NATHANIEL FOLEYNATHANIEL FOLEY
12 bronze badges
12 bronze badges
New contributor
New contributor
4
$begingroup$
You generally avoid adverse weather by flying ABOVE it, not below
$endgroup$
– J. Hougaard
9 hours ago
add a comment |
4
$begingroup$
You generally avoid adverse weather by flying ABOVE it, not below
$endgroup$
– J. Hougaard
9 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
You generally avoid adverse weather by flying ABOVE it, not below
$endgroup$
– J. Hougaard
9 hours ago
$begingroup$
You generally avoid adverse weather by flying ABOVE it, not below
$endgroup$
– J. Hougaard
9 hours ago
add a comment |
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2
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At that altitude, it is a violation of 14 CFR 19.117 to exceed 250 KIAS. I doubt this flight actually flew at 7,000. Flight Aware says it was filed for 17,000ft, and I suspect it actually flew at that height, but due to some technical error, the 10,000 part may have been left off?
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– abelenky
13 hours ago
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Even 17000 is pretty low. The fuel burn would have been brutal.
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– John K
13 hours ago
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Looking through the history, the flight is typically filed for about 23,000
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– abelenky
13 hours ago
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@abelenky FR24 also showed it at 7000' so I think they really flew that low (and reported at ~290kts ground speed so probably 250KIAS). Although it's very curious indeed.
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– Sanchises
13 hours ago
1
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I check with my phone gps it was 7000ft approx and the view to the ground was consistent with a flight that low. They also served drinks.
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– Brice
7 hours ago