How to politely refuse a startup's equity?How to politely ask to trade stock option in job offer for...

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How to politely refuse a startup's equity?


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4















Hypothetical situation:



I received an attractive job offer from a startup, which includes a salary of x and equity that the startup values (let's say fairly) at y. y is a non-trivial sum; x+y is a high compensation, x is low. Ideal outcome for me is accepting the job with x+y salary - but some equity is okay, so long as y is not a significant chunk of x+y.



I don't want the equity because:




  • I cannot confidently double check the valuation (private startup, no public data).

  • There is a vestment schedule but I may or may not stay that long.

  • The equity would increase my overall portfolio risk to unacceptable levels.

  • I'm not that confident the company will actually do well over the long term. I don't think they are at unusually high risk of failure, I just don't have the time, inclination or data to do very detailed analysis of whether they will be a unicorn in ten years.


However, I am concerned that if I refuse the equity, they will construe that as not "believing in the company". Frankly, they would be right - I expect to be employed on a professional basis where I get compensated fairly for the work that I actually do. I'm not interested in doing extra work beyond that justified by my pay, out of the goodness of my heart, just to help the CEO succeed. Clearly I believe it is a company with decent prospects, which is why I'm even considering working there. But are their prospects so great that I want to own them? That discussion seems out of scope for a job offer.



What are my options? I can see:




  • Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)


  • Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement with any startup)

  • Try to value the equity myself (how?) at r*y s.t. r<1, then judge the offer as x+r*y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.

  • Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation - earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts, independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I doubt this would be effective.










share|improve this question

























  • Your first option is addressed in How to politely ask to trade stock option in job offer for something else?

    – Dukeling
    8 hours ago













  • @Dukeling If you read closely, that question is very distantly related because it's asking about an IPO'd stock. Valuing those is a whole different game. There is also no accepted answer (so not "addressed") and the top answer seems to me quite blunt and not very polite (so again not "addressed").

    – SquiddleXO
    8 hours ago













  • @SquiddleXO not all questions get accepted answers (some users on here don’t understand the use of the check mark), but answers to a question show that it has been "addressed"...

    – Solar Mike
    2 hours ago











  • @SolarMike Regardless, pre-IPO and post-IPO equity are obviously very different things.

    – SquiddleXO
    5 mins ago











  • @SquiddleXO I did not mention IPO, I addressed your issue of not seeming to understand answers...

    – Solar Mike
    4 mins ago


















4















Hypothetical situation:



I received an attractive job offer from a startup, which includes a salary of x and equity that the startup values (let's say fairly) at y. y is a non-trivial sum; x+y is a high compensation, x is low. Ideal outcome for me is accepting the job with x+y salary - but some equity is okay, so long as y is not a significant chunk of x+y.



I don't want the equity because:




  • I cannot confidently double check the valuation (private startup, no public data).

  • There is a vestment schedule but I may or may not stay that long.

  • The equity would increase my overall portfolio risk to unacceptable levels.

  • I'm not that confident the company will actually do well over the long term. I don't think they are at unusually high risk of failure, I just don't have the time, inclination or data to do very detailed analysis of whether they will be a unicorn in ten years.


However, I am concerned that if I refuse the equity, they will construe that as not "believing in the company". Frankly, they would be right - I expect to be employed on a professional basis where I get compensated fairly for the work that I actually do. I'm not interested in doing extra work beyond that justified by my pay, out of the goodness of my heart, just to help the CEO succeed. Clearly I believe it is a company with decent prospects, which is why I'm even considering working there. But are their prospects so great that I want to own them? That discussion seems out of scope for a job offer.



What are my options? I can see:




  • Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)


  • Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement with any startup)

  • Try to value the equity myself (how?) at r*y s.t. r<1, then judge the offer as x+r*y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.

  • Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation - earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts, independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I doubt this would be effective.










share|improve this question

























  • Your first option is addressed in How to politely ask to trade stock option in job offer for something else?

    – Dukeling
    8 hours ago













  • @Dukeling If you read closely, that question is very distantly related because it's asking about an IPO'd stock. Valuing those is a whole different game. There is also no accepted answer (so not "addressed") and the top answer seems to me quite blunt and not very polite (so again not "addressed").

    – SquiddleXO
    8 hours ago













  • @SquiddleXO not all questions get accepted answers (some users on here don’t understand the use of the check mark), but answers to a question show that it has been "addressed"...

    – Solar Mike
    2 hours ago











  • @SolarMike Regardless, pre-IPO and post-IPO equity are obviously very different things.

    – SquiddleXO
    5 mins ago











  • @SquiddleXO I did not mention IPO, I addressed your issue of not seeming to understand answers...

    – Solar Mike
    4 mins ago














4












4








4








Hypothetical situation:



I received an attractive job offer from a startup, which includes a salary of x and equity that the startup values (let's say fairly) at y. y is a non-trivial sum; x+y is a high compensation, x is low. Ideal outcome for me is accepting the job with x+y salary - but some equity is okay, so long as y is not a significant chunk of x+y.



I don't want the equity because:




  • I cannot confidently double check the valuation (private startup, no public data).

  • There is a vestment schedule but I may or may not stay that long.

  • The equity would increase my overall portfolio risk to unacceptable levels.

  • I'm not that confident the company will actually do well over the long term. I don't think they are at unusually high risk of failure, I just don't have the time, inclination or data to do very detailed analysis of whether they will be a unicorn in ten years.


However, I am concerned that if I refuse the equity, they will construe that as not "believing in the company". Frankly, they would be right - I expect to be employed on a professional basis where I get compensated fairly for the work that I actually do. I'm not interested in doing extra work beyond that justified by my pay, out of the goodness of my heart, just to help the CEO succeed. Clearly I believe it is a company with decent prospects, which is why I'm even considering working there. But are their prospects so great that I want to own them? That discussion seems out of scope for a job offer.



What are my options? I can see:




  • Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)


  • Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement with any startup)

  • Try to value the equity myself (how?) at r*y s.t. r<1, then judge the offer as x+r*y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.

  • Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation - earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts, independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I doubt this would be effective.










share|improve this question
















Hypothetical situation:



I received an attractive job offer from a startup, which includes a salary of x and equity that the startup values (let's say fairly) at y. y is a non-trivial sum; x+y is a high compensation, x is low. Ideal outcome for me is accepting the job with x+y salary - but some equity is okay, so long as y is not a significant chunk of x+y.



I don't want the equity because:




  • I cannot confidently double check the valuation (private startup, no public data).

  • There is a vestment schedule but I may or may not stay that long.

  • The equity would increase my overall portfolio risk to unacceptable levels.

  • I'm not that confident the company will actually do well over the long term. I don't think they are at unusually high risk of failure, I just don't have the time, inclination or data to do very detailed analysis of whether they will be a unicorn in ten years.


However, I am concerned that if I refuse the equity, they will construe that as not "believing in the company". Frankly, they would be right - I expect to be employed on a professional basis where I get compensated fairly for the work that I actually do. I'm not interested in doing extra work beyond that justified by my pay, out of the goodness of my heart, just to help the CEO succeed. Clearly I believe it is a company with decent prospects, which is why I'm even considering working there. But are their prospects so great that I want to own them? That discussion seems out of scope for a job offer.



What are my options? I can see:




  • Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)


  • Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement with any startup)

  • Try to value the equity myself (how?) at r*y s.t. r<1, then judge the offer as x+r*y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.

  • Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation - earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts, independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I doubt this would be effective.







negotiation startup compensation equity






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 9 hours ago







SquiddleXO

















asked 9 hours ago









SquiddleXOSquiddleXO

9223 silver badges10 bronze badges




9223 silver badges10 bronze badges













  • Your first option is addressed in How to politely ask to trade stock option in job offer for something else?

    – Dukeling
    8 hours ago













  • @Dukeling If you read closely, that question is very distantly related because it's asking about an IPO'd stock. Valuing those is a whole different game. There is also no accepted answer (so not "addressed") and the top answer seems to me quite blunt and not very polite (so again not "addressed").

    – SquiddleXO
    8 hours ago













  • @SquiddleXO not all questions get accepted answers (some users on here don’t understand the use of the check mark), but answers to a question show that it has been "addressed"...

    – Solar Mike
    2 hours ago











  • @SolarMike Regardless, pre-IPO and post-IPO equity are obviously very different things.

    – SquiddleXO
    5 mins ago











  • @SquiddleXO I did not mention IPO, I addressed your issue of not seeming to understand answers...

    – Solar Mike
    4 mins ago



















  • Your first option is addressed in How to politely ask to trade stock option in job offer for something else?

    – Dukeling
    8 hours ago













  • @Dukeling If you read closely, that question is very distantly related because it's asking about an IPO'd stock. Valuing those is a whole different game. There is also no accepted answer (so not "addressed") and the top answer seems to me quite blunt and not very polite (so again not "addressed").

    – SquiddleXO
    8 hours ago













  • @SquiddleXO not all questions get accepted answers (some users on here don’t understand the use of the check mark), but answers to a question show that it has been "addressed"...

    – Solar Mike
    2 hours ago











  • @SolarMike Regardless, pre-IPO and post-IPO equity are obviously very different things.

    – SquiddleXO
    5 mins ago











  • @SquiddleXO I did not mention IPO, I addressed your issue of not seeming to understand answers...

    – Solar Mike
    4 mins ago

















Your first option is addressed in How to politely ask to trade stock option in job offer for something else?

– Dukeling
8 hours ago







Your first option is addressed in How to politely ask to trade stock option in job offer for something else?

– Dukeling
8 hours ago















@Dukeling If you read closely, that question is very distantly related because it's asking about an IPO'd stock. Valuing those is a whole different game. There is also no accepted answer (so not "addressed") and the top answer seems to me quite blunt and not very polite (so again not "addressed").

– SquiddleXO
8 hours ago







@Dukeling If you read closely, that question is very distantly related because it's asking about an IPO'd stock. Valuing those is a whole different game. There is also no accepted answer (so not "addressed") and the top answer seems to me quite blunt and not very polite (so again not "addressed").

– SquiddleXO
8 hours ago















@SquiddleXO not all questions get accepted answers (some users on here don’t understand the use of the check mark), but answers to a question show that it has been "addressed"...

– Solar Mike
2 hours ago





@SquiddleXO not all questions get accepted answers (some users on here don’t understand the use of the check mark), but answers to a question show that it has been "addressed"...

– Solar Mike
2 hours ago













@SolarMike Regardless, pre-IPO and post-IPO equity are obviously very different things.

– SquiddleXO
5 mins ago





@SolarMike Regardless, pre-IPO and post-IPO equity are obviously very different things.

– SquiddleXO
5 mins ago













@SquiddleXO I did not mention IPO, I addressed your issue of not seeming to understand answers...

– Solar Mike
4 mins ago





@SquiddleXO I did not mention IPO, I addressed your issue of not seeming to understand answers...

– Solar Mike
4 mins ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















9














Startups offer equity because they acknowledge the risk to the employees of the company failing, so they present an 'upside' - if the company does well, everyone benefits.



It takes a certain type of person to be attracted by that offer. Other people, like yourself, do the math; the company is unlikely to be that unicorn.



What do you do? You reject their offer, and give them a number that you're comfortable living with if (in your case) 'y' turns out to be zero (it probably will). Be prepared for them to reject your counteroffer, simply because they cannot afford you at your standard rate.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    What is the risk to the employee from the company failing? That the employee has to find a new job? How is it an upside to increase that risk by forcibly investing part of the compensation into a very risky asset, with an added string that the asset is forfeited if the employee does not work there long enough? It seems to me like equity increases risk, and dramatically.

    – SquiddleXO
    8 hours ago











  • The risk is that the employee has lost money (salary) that they've agreed to exchange in return for a small percentage of the company. You need to make sure that the gamble you're making is one you're comfortable with.

    – PeteCon
    8 hours ago











  • @SquiddleXO - Nope, it really doesn't. The company still has to provide high enough cash compensation to attract employees. The "downside" is pretty minimal. From my experience the biggest downside is emotional disappointment.

    – Julie in Austin
    8 hours ago



















4














The first part of the answer to your question is that the portfolio risk working for a startup is nil -- you've paid nothing, you have nothing to lose. If your concern is that the downside risk to your portfolio will cause it to underperform, the question is "How?" Again, you paid nothing, and the only risk is not being compensated what you believe you are worth.



Which brings up the second part of the answer to your question. If you believe you are worth $X / year in the open market, you have to adjust what they are offering with what you believe is the risk-adjusted value of the equity. In other words, if you honestly believe the equity is worthless, well, the "present value" of that equity is $0.00 and you ask for what you believe your fair market value happens to be.



I'm not going to bother with the third part, because in your case you don't appear to believe there is a value to the equity offer, either because you believe the company will fail, or you believe you would leave before you vest. But in the general case, if you believe there is a 20% chance of a $100K payout in 5 years, that's 0.20 * 100,000 / 5, or $4,000 per year. There's more to it than that, but again, you don't believe there is an upside or that you'd stay long enough to benefit.



Startups are not for everyone. In my experience there are two groups of people (there's a third -- "gamblers") that are a good fit. The first group is young and doesn't have hard-and-fast financial obligations. They can afford to take a bit of risk because if it doesn't work out, they've got time. The second group is older and doesn't have the pressing need for cash compensation because, perhaps, the kids are out of college or the mortgage is paid off. In my experience it's the people in the middle (who aren't gamblers) who question the merits of working for a startup.



The final thing, which is really important, is this -- bring your concerns up to the founders. As you can see from my little calculation, the "discount" on cash compensation really shouldn't be all that much. And if you are as talented as you seem to believe you are, you may well be able to positively impact the odds of the company being successful.






share|improve this answer



















  • 5





    OP isn't paying nothing for the equity; OP is paying the difference between market rate salary and what this company is offering as salary.

    – lukkea
    26 mins ago



















0














How to politely refuse a startup's equity?



This is how I'd do it:




No, I wouldn't be interested in that. But thanks anyway.




There is really no need to go any further.






share|improve this answer































    -3















    How to politely refuse a startup's equity?




    You don't. It's free potential money and you'd be stupid to refuse it. You just have to make sure that the this offer still makes sense, even if the equity amounts to nothing (most likely outcome).




    Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)




    You just ask. It's easiest if you talk about your cash flow requirements and how the current cash compensation doesn't work for you. Don't offer to lower equity in return, until they bring it up.




    Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y
    entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement
    with any startup)




    That's just lazy. If you really think the equity is worthless, you shouldn't work for this startup at all.




    Try to value the equity myself (how?) at ry s.t. r<1, then judge the
    offer as x+r
    y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a
    highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.




    That's the right thing to do. It's honestly not that hard: post a question on workplace stack exchange or money stack exchange. I think spending 10 hours or so on this can give a reasonably good idea on what it is. If that's too much of a bother: for an early stage startup de-rate to 10% , for something with decent funding and an existing revenue stream de-rate to 20%.




    Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation -
    earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts,
    independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I
    doubt this would be effective.




    Of course you want to look at this stuff, at least at the high level and most start-ups will be more than happy to do this since they do this song and dance at all day long anyway.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      It's not free potential money if it's part of your compensation for their work, and especially if it's padding the below-market-rate compensation.

      – Haem
      5 mins ago
















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    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes








    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    9














    Startups offer equity because they acknowledge the risk to the employees of the company failing, so they present an 'upside' - if the company does well, everyone benefits.



    It takes a certain type of person to be attracted by that offer. Other people, like yourself, do the math; the company is unlikely to be that unicorn.



    What do you do? You reject their offer, and give them a number that you're comfortable living with if (in your case) 'y' turns out to be zero (it probably will). Be prepared for them to reject your counteroffer, simply because they cannot afford you at your standard rate.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      What is the risk to the employee from the company failing? That the employee has to find a new job? How is it an upside to increase that risk by forcibly investing part of the compensation into a very risky asset, with an added string that the asset is forfeited if the employee does not work there long enough? It seems to me like equity increases risk, and dramatically.

      – SquiddleXO
      8 hours ago











    • The risk is that the employee has lost money (salary) that they've agreed to exchange in return for a small percentage of the company. You need to make sure that the gamble you're making is one you're comfortable with.

      – PeteCon
      8 hours ago











    • @SquiddleXO - Nope, it really doesn't. The company still has to provide high enough cash compensation to attract employees. The "downside" is pretty minimal. From my experience the biggest downside is emotional disappointment.

      – Julie in Austin
      8 hours ago
















    9














    Startups offer equity because they acknowledge the risk to the employees of the company failing, so they present an 'upside' - if the company does well, everyone benefits.



    It takes a certain type of person to be attracted by that offer. Other people, like yourself, do the math; the company is unlikely to be that unicorn.



    What do you do? You reject their offer, and give them a number that you're comfortable living with if (in your case) 'y' turns out to be zero (it probably will). Be prepared for them to reject your counteroffer, simply because they cannot afford you at your standard rate.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 1





      What is the risk to the employee from the company failing? That the employee has to find a new job? How is it an upside to increase that risk by forcibly investing part of the compensation into a very risky asset, with an added string that the asset is forfeited if the employee does not work there long enough? It seems to me like equity increases risk, and dramatically.

      – SquiddleXO
      8 hours ago











    • The risk is that the employee has lost money (salary) that they've agreed to exchange in return for a small percentage of the company. You need to make sure that the gamble you're making is one you're comfortable with.

      – PeteCon
      8 hours ago











    • @SquiddleXO - Nope, it really doesn't. The company still has to provide high enough cash compensation to attract employees. The "downside" is pretty minimal. From my experience the biggest downside is emotional disappointment.

      – Julie in Austin
      8 hours ago














    9












    9








    9







    Startups offer equity because they acknowledge the risk to the employees of the company failing, so they present an 'upside' - if the company does well, everyone benefits.



    It takes a certain type of person to be attracted by that offer. Other people, like yourself, do the math; the company is unlikely to be that unicorn.



    What do you do? You reject their offer, and give them a number that you're comfortable living with if (in your case) 'y' turns out to be zero (it probably will). Be prepared for them to reject your counteroffer, simply because they cannot afford you at your standard rate.






    share|improve this answer













    Startups offer equity because they acknowledge the risk to the employees of the company failing, so they present an 'upside' - if the company does well, everyone benefits.



    It takes a certain type of person to be attracted by that offer. Other people, like yourself, do the math; the company is unlikely to be that unicorn.



    What do you do? You reject their offer, and give them a number that you're comfortable living with if (in your case) 'y' turns out to be zero (it probably will). Be prepared for them to reject your counteroffer, simply because they cannot afford you at your standard rate.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 8 hours ago









    PeteConPeteCon

    18.5k7 gold badges49 silver badges72 bronze badges




    18.5k7 gold badges49 silver badges72 bronze badges








    • 1





      What is the risk to the employee from the company failing? That the employee has to find a new job? How is it an upside to increase that risk by forcibly investing part of the compensation into a very risky asset, with an added string that the asset is forfeited if the employee does not work there long enough? It seems to me like equity increases risk, and dramatically.

      – SquiddleXO
      8 hours ago











    • The risk is that the employee has lost money (salary) that they've agreed to exchange in return for a small percentage of the company. You need to make sure that the gamble you're making is one you're comfortable with.

      – PeteCon
      8 hours ago











    • @SquiddleXO - Nope, it really doesn't. The company still has to provide high enough cash compensation to attract employees. The "downside" is pretty minimal. From my experience the biggest downside is emotional disappointment.

      – Julie in Austin
      8 hours ago














    • 1





      What is the risk to the employee from the company failing? That the employee has to find a new job? How is it an upside to increase that risk by forcibly investing part of the compensation into a very risky asset, with an added string that the asset is forfeited if the employee does not work there long enough? It seems to me like equity increases risk, and dramatically.

      – SquiddleXO
      8 hours ago











    • The risk is that the employee has lost money (salary) that they've agreed to exchange in return for a small percentage of the company. You need to make sure that the gamble you're making is one you're comfortable with.

      – PeteCon
      8 hours ago











    • @SquiddleXO - Nope, it really doesn't. The company still has to provide high enough cash compensation to attract employees. The "downside" is pretty minimal. From my experience the biggest downside is emotional disappointment.

      – Julie in Austin
      8 hours ago








    1




    1





    What is the risk to the employee from the company failing? That the employee has to find a new job? How is it an upside to increase that risk by forcibly investing part of the compensation into a very risky asset, with an added string that the asset is forfeited if the employee does not work there long enough? It seems to me like equity increases risk, and dramatically.

    – SquiddleXO
    8 hours ago





    What is the risk to the employee from the company failing? That the employee has to find a new job? How is it an upside to increase that risk by forcibly investing part of the compensation into a very risky asset, with an added string that the asset is forfeited if the employee does not work there long enough? It seems to me like equity increases risk, and dramatically.

    – SquiddleXO
    8 hours ago













    The risk is that the employee has lost money (salary) that they've agreed to exchange in return for a small percentage of the company. You need to make sure that the gamble you're making is one you're comfortable with.

    – PeteCon
    8 hours ago





    The risk is that the employee has lost money (salary) that they've agreed to exchange in return for a small percentage of the company. You need to make sure that the gamble you're making is one you're comfortable with.

    – PeteCon
    8 hours ago













    @SquiddleXO - Nope, it really doesn't. The company still has to provide high enough cash compensation to attract employees. The "downside" is pretty minimal. From my experience the biggest downside is emotional disappointment.

    – Julie in Austin
    8 hours ago





    @SquiddleXO - Nope, it really doesn't. The company still has to provide high enough cash compensation to attract employees. The "downside" is pretty minimal. From my experience the biggest downside is emotional disappointment.

    – Julie in Austin
    8 hours ago













    4














    The first part of the answer to your question is that the portfolio risk working for a startup is nil -- you've paid nothing, you have nothing to lose. If your concern is that the downside risk to your portfolio will cause it to underperform, the question is "How?" Again, you paid nothing, and the only risk is not being compensated what you believe you are worth.



    Which brings up the second part of the answer to your question. If you believe you are worth $X / year in the open market, you have to adjust what they are offering with what you believe is the risk-adjusted value of the equity. In other words, if you honestly believe the equity is worthless, well, the "present value" of that equity is $0.00 and you ask for what you believe your fair market value happens to be.



    I'm not going to bother with the third part, because in your case you don't appear to believe there is a value to the equity offer, either because you believe the company will fail, or you believe you would leave before you vest. But in the general case, if you believe there is a 20% chance of a $100K payout in 5 years, that's 0.20 * 100,000 / 5, or $4,000 per year. There's more to it than that, but again, you don't believe there is an upside or that you'd stay long enough to benefit.



    Startups are not for everyone. In my experience there are two groups of people (there's a third -- "gamblers") that are a good fit. The first group is young and doesn't have hard-and-fast financial obligations. They can afford to take a bit of risk because if it doesn't work out, they've got time. The second group is older and doesn't have the pressing need for cash compensation because, perhaps, the kids are out of college or the mortgage is paid off. In my experience it's the people in the middle (who aren't gamblers) who question the merits of working for a startup.



    The final thing, which is really important, is this -- bring your concerns up to the founders. As you can see from my little calculation, the "discount" on cash compensation really shouldn't be all that much. And if you are as talented as you seem to believe you are, you may well be able to positively impact the odds of the company being successful.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 5





      OP isn't paying nothing for the equity; OP is paying the difference between market rate salary and what this company is offering as salary.

      – lukkea
      26 mins ago
















    4














    The first part of the answer to your question is that the portfolio risk working for a startup is nil -- you've paid nothing, you have nothing to lose. If your concern is that the downside risk to your portfolio will cause it to underperform, the question is "How?" Again, you paid nothing, and the only risk is not being compensated what you believe you are worth.



    Which brings up the second part of the answer to your question. If you believe you are worth $X / year in the open market, you have to adjust what they are offering with what you believe is the risk-adjusted value of the equity. In other words, if you honestly believe the equity is worthless, well, the "present value" of that equity is $0.00 and you ask for what you believe your fair market value happens to be.



    I'm not going to bother with the third part, because in your case you don't appear to believe there is a value to the equity offer, either because you believe the company will fail, or you believe you would leave before you vest. But in the general case, if you believe there is a 20% chance of a $100K payout in 5 years, that's 0.20 * 100,000 / 5, or $4,000 per year. There's more to it than that, but again, you don't believe there is an upside or that you'd stay long enough to benefit.



    Startups are not for everyone. In my experience there are two groups of people (there's a third -- "gamblers") that are a good fit. The first group is young and doesn't have hard-and-fast financial obligations. They can afford to take a bit of risk because if it doesn't work out, they've got time. The second group is older and doesn't have the pressing need for cash compensation because, perhaps, the kids are out of college or the mortgage is paid off. In my experience it's the people in the middle (who aren't gamblers) who question the merits of working for a startup.



    The final thing, which is really important, is this -- bring your concerns up to the founders. As you can see from my little calculation, the "discount" on cash compensation really shouldn't be all that much. And if you are as talented as you seem to believe you are, you may well be able to positively impact the odds of the company being successful.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 5





      OP isn't paying nothing for the equity; OP is paying the difference between market rate salary and what this company is offering as salary.

      – lukkea
      26 mins ago














    4












    4








    4







    The first part of the answer to your question is that the portfolio risk working for a startup is nil -- you've paid nothing, you have nothing to lose. If your concern is that the downside risk to your portfolio will cause it to underperform, the question is "How?" Again, you paid nothing, and the only risk is not being compensated what you believe you are worth.



    Which brings up the second part of the answer to your question. If you believe you are worth $X / year in the open market, you have to adjust what they are offering with what you believe is the risk-adjusted value of the equity. In other words, if you honestly believe the equity is worthless, well, the "present value" of that equity is $0.00 and you ask for what you believe your fair market value happens to be.



    I'm not going to bother with the third part, because in your case you don't appear to believe there is a value to the equity offer, either because you believe the company will fail, or you believe you would leave before you vest. But in the general case, if you believe there is a 20% chance of a $100K payout in 5 years, that's 0.20 * 100,000 / 5, or $4,000 per year. There's more to it than that, but again, you don't believe there is an upside or that you'd stay long enough to benefit.



    Startups are not for everyone. In my experience there are two groups of people (there's a third -- "gamblers") that are a good fit. The first group is young and doesn't have hard-and-fast financial obligations. They can afford to take a bit of risk because if it doesn't work out, they've got time. The second group is older and doesn't have the pressing need for cash compensation because, perhaps, the kids are out of college or the mortgage is paid off. In my experience it's the people in the middle (who aren't gamblers) who question the merits of working for a startup.



    The final thing, which is really important, is this -- bring your concerns up to the founders. As you can see from my little calculation, the "discount" on cash compensation really shouldn't be all that much. And if you are as talented as you seem to believe you are, you may well be able to positively impact the odds of the company being successful.






    share|improve this answer













    The first part of the answer to your question is that the portfolio risk working for a startup is nil -- you've paid nothing, you have nothing to lose. If your concern is that the downside risk to your portfolio will cause it to underperform, the question is "How?" Again, you paid nothing, and the only risk is not being compensated what you believe you are worth.



    Which brings up the second part of the answer to your question. If you believe you are worth $X / year in the open market, you have to adjust what they are offering with what you believe is the risk-adjusted value of the equity. In other words, if you honestly believe the equity is worthless, well, the "present value" of that equity is $0.00 and you ask for what you believe your fair market value happens to be.



    I'm not going to bother with the third part, because in your case you don't appear to believe there is a value to the equity offer, either because you believe the company will fail, or you believe you would leave before you vest. But in the general case, if you believe there is a 20% chance of a $100K payout in 5 years, that's 0.20 * 100,000 / 5, or $4,000 per year. There's more to it than that, but again, you don't believe there is an upside or that you'd stay long enough to benefit.



    Startups are not for everyone. In my experience there are two groups of people (there's a third -- "gamblers") that are a good fit. The first group is young and doesn't have hard-and-fast financial obligations. They can afford to take a bit of risk because if it doesn't work out, they've got time. The second group is older and doesn't have the pressing need for cash compensation because, perhaps, the kids are out of college or the mortgage is paid off. In my experience it's the people in the middle (who aren't gamblers) who question the merits of working for a startup.



    The final thing, which is really important, is this -- bring your concerns up to the founders. As you can see from my little calculation, the "discount" on cash compensation really shouldn't be all that much. And if you are as talented as you seem to believe you are, you may well be able to positively impact the odds of the company being successful.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 8 hours ago









    Julie in AustinJulie in Austin

    1,7507 silver badges15 bronze badges




    1,7507 silver badges15 bronze badges








    • 5





      OP isn't paying nothing for the equity; OP is paying the difference between market rate salary and what this company is offering as salary.

      – lukkea
      26 mins ago














    • 5





      OP isn't paying nothing for the equity; OP is paying the difference between market rate salary and what this company is offering as salary.

      – lukkea
      26 mins ago








    5




    5





    OP isn't paying nothing for the equity; OP is paying the difference between market rate salary and what this company is offering as salary.

    – lukkea
    26 mins ago





    OP isn't paying nothing for the equity; OP is paying the difference between market rate salary and what this company is offering as salary.

    – lukkea
    26 mins ago











    0














    How to politely refuse a startup's equity?



    This is how I'd do it:




    No, I wouldn't be interested in that. But thanks anyway.




    There is really no need to go any further.






    share|improve this answer




























      0














      How to politely refuse a startup's equity?



      This is how I'd do it:




      No, I wouldn't be interested in that. But thanks anyway.




      There is really no need to go any further.






      share|improve this answer


























        0












        0








        0







        How to politely refuse a startup's equity?



        This is how I'd do it:




        No, I wouldn't be interested in that. But thanks anyway.




        There is really no need to go any further.






        share|improve this answer













        How to politely refuse a startup's equity?



        This is how I'd do it:




        No, I wouldn't be interested in that. But thanks anyway.




        There is really no need to go any further.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 30 mins ago









        Marc.2377Marc.2377

        2893 silver badges10 bronze badges




        2893 silver badges10 bronze badges























            -3















            How to politely refuse a startup's equity?




            You don't. It's free potential money and you'd be stupid to refuse it. You just have to make sure that the this offer still makes sense, even if the equity amounts to nothing (most likely outcome).




            Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)




            You just ask. It's easiest if you talk about your cash flow requirements and how the current cash compensation doesn't work for you. Don't offer to lower equity in return, until they bring it up.




            Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y
            entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement
            with any startup)




            That's just lazy. If you really think the equity is worthless, you shouldn't work for this startup at all.




            Try to value the equity myself (how?) at ry s.t. r<1, then judge the
            offer as x+r
            y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a
            highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.




            That's the right thing to do. It's honestly not that hard: post a question on workplace stack exchange or money stack exchange. I think spending 10 hours or so on this can give a reasonably good idea on what it is. If that's too much of a bother: for an early stage startup de-rate to 10% , for something with decent funding and an existing revenue stream de-rate to 20%.




            Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation -
            earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts,
            independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I
            doubt this would be effective.




            Of course you want to look at this stuff, at least at the high level and most start-ups will be more than happy to do this since they do this song and dance at all day long anyway.






            share|improve this answer



















            • 1





              It's not free potential money if it's part of your compensation for their work, and especially if it's padding the below-market-rate compensation.

              – Haem
              5 mins ago


















            -3















            How to politely refuse a startup's equity?




            You don't. It's free potential money and you'd be stupid to refuse it. You just have to make sure that the this offer still makes sense, even if the equity amounts to nothing (most likely outcome).




            Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)




            You just ask. It's easiest if you talk about your cash flow requirements and how the current cash compensation doesn't work for you. Don't offer to lower equity in return, until they bring it up.




            Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y
            entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement
            with any startup)




            That's just lazy. If you really think the equity is worthless, you shouldn't work for this startup at all.




            Try to value the equity myself (how?) at ry s.t. r<1, then judge the
            offer as x+r
            y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a
            highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.




            That's the right thing to do. It's honestly not that hard: post a question on workplace stack exchange or money stack exchange. I think spending 10 hours or so on this can give a reasonably good idea on what it is. If that's too much of a bother: for an early stage startup de-rate to 10% , for something with decent funding and an existing revenue stream de-rate to 20%.




            Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation -
            earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts,
            independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I
            doubt this would be effective.




            Of course you want to look at this stuff, at least at the high level and most start-ups will be more than happy to do this since they do this song and dance at all day long anyway.






            share|improve this answer



















            • 1





              It's not free potential money if it's part of your compensation for their work, and especially if it's padding the below-market-rate compensation.

              – Haem
              5 mins ago
















            -3












            -3








            -3








            How to politely refuse a startup's equity?




            You don't. It's free potential money and you'd be stupid to refuse it. You just have to make sure that the this offer still makes sense, even if the equity amounts to nothing (most likely outcome).




            Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)




            You just ask. It's easiest if you talk about your cash flow requirements and how the current cash compensation doesn't work for you. Don't offer to lower equity in return, until they bring it up.




            Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y
            entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement
            with any startup)




            That's just lazy. If you really think the equity is worthless, you shouldn't work for this startup at all.




            Try to value the equity myself (how?) at ry s.t. r<1, then judge the
            offer as x+r
            y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a
            highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.




            That's the right thing to do. It's honestly not that hard: post a question on workplace stack exchange or money stack exchange. I think spending 10 hours or so on this can give a reasonably good idea on what it is. If that's too much of a bother: for an early stage startup de-rate to 10% , for something with decent funding and an existing revenue stream de-rate to 20%.




            Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation -
            earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts,
            independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I
            doubt this would be effective.




            Of course you want to look at this stuff, at least at the high level and most start-ups will be more than happy to do this since they do this song and dance at all day long anyway.






            share|improve this answer














            How to politely refuse a startup's equity?




            You don't. It's free potential money and you'd be stupid to refuse it. You just have to make sure that the this offer still makes sense, even if the equity amounts to nothing (most likely outcome).




            Ask for less equity and more cash, but very delicately. (how?)




            You just ask. It's easiest if you talk about your cash flow requirements and how the current cash compensation doesn't work for you. Don't offer to lower equity in return, until they bring it up.




            Pretend y=0 and judge the offer as x compensation, ignoring y
            entirely. (but then it's unlikely I will be able to reach an agreement
            with any startup)




            That's just lazy. If you really think the equity is worthless, you shouldn't work for this startup at all.




            Try to value the equity myself (how?) at ry s.t. r<1, then judge the
            offer as x+r
            y compensation, ask for x+y which they will treat as a
            highball offer even though to me it's a normal-ball offer.




            That's the right thing to do. It's honestly not that hard: post a question on workplace stack exchange or money stack exchange. I think spending 10 hours or so on this can give a reasonably good idea on what it is. If that's too much of a bother: for an early stage startup de-rate to 10% , for something with decent funding and an existing revenue stream de-rate to 20%.




            Demand the usual investor relations stuff to justify their valuation -
            earning reports, financial statements, quarterly meeting transcripts,
            independent analyst reports, meeting with executives and so on. I
            doubt this would be effective.




            Of course you want to look at this stuff, at least at the high level and most start-ups will be more than happy to do this since they do this song and dance at all day long anyway.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 6 hours ago









            HilmarHilmar

            38.3k11 gold badges86 silver badges114 bronze badges




            38.3k11 gold badges86 silver badges114 bronze badges








            • 1





              It's not free potential money if it's part of your compensation for their work, and especially if it's padding the below-market-rate compensation.

              – Haem
              5 mins ago
















            • 1





              It's not free potential money if it's part of your compensation for their work, and especially if it's padding the below-market-rate compensation.

              – Haem
              5 mins ago










            1




            1





            It's not free potential money if it's part of your compensation for their work, and especially if it's padding the below-market-rate compensation.

            – Haem
            5 mins ago







            It's not free potential money if it's part of your compensation for their work, and especially if it's padding the below-market-rate compensation.

            – Haem
            5 mins ago




















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