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Easy way of generating a 50-150W load @12V


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4

















I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity and to do that, I need to generate a constant load to be able to measure how long it can sustain that load.



I tried using a 330W load (290W shoe heater + 85%-ish efficient inverter), but I found out that it couldn't sustain that load for more than half an hour before the voltage was too low. Lower loads seemed to work, though, so I'll need to find a way of creating something that has constant load, but at a lower wattage.



Now, this seems silly-stupid simple, right? Just find something that draws, say 100W and see if that works. Or 50W if that should fail. The problem is, I have a hard time finding anything with a constant power draw in the range 15W-300W. It's impossible to find light bulbs that are not LEDs anymore (1-2W instead of 50W), and my vacuum starts at 350W at the minimum setting. Nothing inbetween.



So I guess I could hack my own? I'm not that great at electro-physics, but I understand it's possible to make some kind of super-basic heater: something with a high resistance causing a lot of thermal heat. I have no idea, though, how to make it work at 12V. Is this something I could hack together?



Alternatively, are there common household appliances that can generate a constant load at 50-150W for hours without inducing mechanical failure of some sort?










share|improve this question






















  • 2





    You can buy Nichrome wire and make your own heater. Different lengths of wire will make different amounts of heat (and use different wattages). Does that sound like something you would want to do? It's easy to burn yourself going this route, so maybe there is something safer, but turning power into heat is probably the simplest.

    – JPhi1618
    9 hours ago











  • "I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity" -- could you elaborate? At some point, if the capacity of the battery is in question, it probably makes more economic sense to just replace it. Note also that for most battery chemistries, draining a battery all the way to empty will reduce the battery's lifespan. Maybe from a practical point of view, the tests you've already done suffice. But if not, I don't think you're going to get constant load from any random resistive load (like an incandescent light bulb). As V drops, so will I (current).

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago













  • That said, if you really really want a constant load, the easiest approach is to just buy a bench load. You can get a small one that would suit your purposes for under a grand. Even less if you buy a used one. That takes me back to the previous question: what kind of battery is this and why do you need to test the capacity? It'd have to be a pretty pricey battery to justify that kind of work; if an actual bench load is too expensive to justify here, seems like buying a new battery would make more sense.

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago


















4

















I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity and to do that, I need to generate a constant load to be able to measure how long it can sustain that load.



I tried using a 330W load (290W shoe heater + 85%-ish efficient inverter), but I found out that it couldn't sustain that load for more than half an hour before the voltage was too low. Lower loads seemed to work, though, so I'll need to find a way of creating something that has constant load, but at a lower wattage.



Now, this seems silly-stupid simple, right? Just find something that draws, say 100W and see if that works. Or 50W if that should fail. The problem is, I have a hard time finding anything with a constant power draw in the range 15W-300W. It's impossible to find light bulbs that are not LEDs anymore (1-2W instead of 50W), and my vacuum starts at 350W at the minimum setting. Nothing inbetween.



So I guess I could hack my own? I'm not that great at electro-physics, but I understand it's possible to make some kind of super-basic heater: something with a high resistance causing a lot of thermal heat. I have no idea, though, how to make it work at 12V. Is this something I could hack together?



Alternatively, are there common household appliances that can generate a constant load at 50-150W for hours without inducing mechanical failure of some sort?










share|improve this question






















  • 2





    You can buy Nichrome wire and make your own heater. Different lengths of wire will make different amounts of heat (and use different wattages). Does that sound like something you would want to do? It's easy to burn yourself going this route, so maybe there is something safer, but turning power into heat is probably the simplest.

    – JPhi1618
    9 hours ago











  • "I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity" -- could you elaborate? At some point, if the capacity of the battery is in question, it probably makes more economic sense to just replace it. Note also that for most battery chemistries, draining a battery all the way to empty will reduce the battery's lifespan. Maybe from a practical point of view, the tests you've already done suffice. But if not, I don't think you're going to get constant load from any random resistive load (like an incandescent light bulb). As V drops, so will I (current).

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago













  • That said, if you really really want a constant load, the easiest approach is to just buy a bench load. You can get a small one that would suit your purposes for under a grand. Even less if you buy a used one. That takes me back to the previous question: what kind of battery is this and why do you need to test the capacity? It'd have to be a pretty pricey battery to justify that kind of work; if an actual bench load is too expensive to justify here, seems like buying a new battery would make more sense.

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago














4












4








4


1






I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity and to do that, I need to generate a constant load to be able to measure how long it can sustain that load.



I tried using a 330W load (290W shoe heater + 85%-ish efficient inverter), but I found out that it couldn't sustain that load for more than half an hour before the voltage was too low. Lower loads seemed to work, though, so I'll need to find a way of creating something that has constant load, but at a lower wattage.



Now, this seems silly-stupid simple, right? Just find something that draws, say 100W and see if that works. Or 50W if that should fail. The problem is, I have a hard time finding anything with a constant power draw in the range 15W-300W. It's impossible to find light bulbs that are not LEDs anymore (1-2W instead of 50W), and my vacuum starts at 350W at the minimum setting. Nothing inbetween.



So I guess I could hack my own? I'm not that great at electro-physics, but I understand it's possible to make some kind of super-basic heater: something with a high resistance causing a lot of thermal heat. I have no idea, though, how to make it work at 12V. Is this something I could hack together?



Alternatively, are there common household appliances that can generate a constant load at 50-150W for hours without inducing mechanical failure of some sort?










share|improve this question














I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity and to do that, I need to generate a constant load to be able to measure how long it can sustain that load.



I tried using a 330W load (290W shoe heater + 85%-ish efficient inverter), but I found out that it couldn't sustain that load for more than half an hour before the voltage was too low. Lower loads seemed to work, though, so I'll need to find a way of creating something that has constant load, but at a lower wattage.



Now, this seems silly-stupid simple, right? Just find something that draws, say 100W and see if that works. Or 50W if that should fail. The problem is, I have a hard time finding anything with a constant power draw in the range 15W-300W. It's impossible to find light bulbs that are not LEDs anymore (1-2W instead of 50W), and my vacuum starts at 350W at the minimum setting. Nothing inbetween.



So I guess I could hack my own? I'm not that great at electro-physics, but I understand it's possible to make some kind of super-basic heater: something with a high resistance causing a lot of thermal heat. I have no idea, though, how to make it work at 12V. Is this something I could hack together?



Alternatively, are there common household appliances that can generate a constant load at 50-150W for hours without inducing mechanical failure of some sort?







electrical battery






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question



share|improve this question










asked 9 hours ago









oligofrenoligofren

1386 bronze badges




1386 bronze badges











  • 2





    You can buy Nichrome wire and make your own heater. Different lengths of wire will make different amounts of heat (and use different wattages). Does that sound like something you would want to do? It's easy to burn yourself going this route, so maybe there is something safer, but turning power into heat is probably the simplest.

    – JPhi1618
    9 hours ago











  • "I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity" -- could you elaborate? At some point, if the capacity of the battery is in question, it probably makes more economic sense to just replace it. Note also that for most battery chemistries, draining a battery all the way to empty will reduce the battery's lifespan. Maybe from a practical point of view, the tests you've already done suffice. But if not, I don't think you're going to get constant load from any random resistive load (like an incandescent light bulb). As V drops, so will I (current).

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago













  • That said, if you really really want a constant load, the easiest approach is to just buy a bench load. You can get a small one that would suit your purposes for under a grand. Even less if you buy a used one. That takes me back to the previous question: what kind of battery is this and why do you need to test the capacity? It'd have to be a pretty pricey battery to justify that kind of work; if an actual bench load is too expensive to justify here, seems like buying a new battery would make more sense.

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago














  • 2





    You can buy Nichrome wire and make your own heater. Different lengths of wire will make different amounts of heat (and use different wattages). Does that sound like something you would want to do? It's easy to burn yourself going this route, so maybe there is something safer, but turning power into heat is probably the simplest.

    – JPhi1618
    9 hours ago











  • "I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity" -- could you elaborate? At some point, if the capacity of the battery is in question, it probably makes more economic sense to just replace it. Note also that for most battery chemistries, draining a battery all the way to empty will reduce the battery's lifespan. Maybe from a practical point of view, the tests you've already done suffice. But if not, I don't think you're going to get constant load from any random resistive load (like an incandescent light bulb). As V drops, so will I (current).

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago













  • That said, if you really really want a constant load, the easiest approach is to just buy a bench load. You can get a small one that would suit your purposes for under a grand. Even less if you buy a used one. That takes me back to the previous question: what kind of battery is this and why do you need to test the capacity? It'd have to be a pretty pricey battery to justify that kind of work; if an actual bench load is too expensive to justify here, seems like buying a new battery would make more sense.

    – Peter Duniho
    7 hours ago








2




2





You can buy Nichrome wire and make your own heater. Different lengths of wire will make different amounts of heat (and use different wattages). Does that sound like something you would want to do? It's easy to burn yourself going this route, so maybe there is something safer, but turning power into heat is probably the simplest.

– JPhi1618
9 hours ago





You can buy Nichrome wire and make your own heater. Different lengths of wire will make different amounts of heat (and use different wattages). Does that sound like something you would want to do? It's easy to burn yourself going this route, so maybe there is something safer, but turning power into heat is probably the simplest.

– JPhi1618
9 hours ago













"I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity" -- could you elaborate? At some point, if the capacity of the battery is in question, it probably makes more economic sense to just replace it. Note also that for most battery chemistries, draining a battery all the way to empty will reduce the battery's lifespan. Maybe from a practical point of view, the tests you've already done suffice. But if not, I don't think you're going to get constant load from any random resistive load (like an incandescent light bulb). As V drops, so will I (current).

– Peter Duniho
7 hours ago







"I need to test a battery for its remaining capacity" -- could you elaborate? At some point, if the capacity of the battery is in question, it probably makes more economic sense to just replace it. Note also that for most battery chemistries, draining a battery all the way to empty will reduce the battery's lifespan. Maybe from a practical point of view, the tests you've already done suffice. But if not, I don't think you're going to get constant load from any random resistive load (like an incandescent light bulb). As V drops, so will I (current).

– Peter Duniho
7 hours ago















That said, if you really really want a constant load, the easiest approach is to just buy a bench load. You can get a small one that would suit your purposes for under a grand. Even less if you buy a used one. That takes me back to the previous question: what kind of battery is this and why do you need to test the capacity? It'd have to be a pretty pricey battery to justify that kind of work; if an actual bench load is too expensive to justify here, seems like buying a new battery would make more sense.

– Peter Duniho
7 hours ago





That said, if you really really want a constant load, the easiest approach is to just buy a bench load. You can get a small one that would suit your purposes for under a grand. Even less if you buy a used one. That takes me back to the previous question: what kind of battery is this and why do you need to test the capacity? It'd have to be a pretty pricey battery to justify that kind of work; if an actual bench load is too expensive to justify here, seems like buying a new battery would make more sense.

– Peter Duniho
7 hours ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















5


















Automotive headlamps are the obvious, easy 12V choice, being typically in the 45-55W range (don't get LED headlamps.)



If you ask the right folks you can often get dual-filament bulbs (high/low beam) with one filament broken for free.






share|improve this answer






















  • 3





    This takes the medal. The low beam is typically 35W and high beam 55w, and the low beam usually burns out first. DON'T run both hi and low at once, they're not made for that.

    – Harper
    3 hours ago





















2


















For 12V DC, you are probably looking for halogen bulbs, not incandescent. You should be able to get a few hundred watts of 12v halogen bulbs for about $10 online, and you could even get them in units of 20W or so if you want to refine your testing.






share|improve this answer






















  • 1





    Halogen bulbs are a subtype of incandescent bulbs, and 20W 12V bulbs are rarely halogen anyway (45W+ headlamp bulbs are). But +1 for a good idea

    – Chris H
    8 hours ago



















2


















You don't need to step up to mains voltage, in fact for experimenting it's best not to.



There are such things as 12V car fan heaters that are typically 120-150W.



Or you can buy wire-wound load resistors. A 3 Ω resistor would dissipate 48 W at 12 V, so wiring 3 in parallel would work and allow you to adjust the load. I'd buy 100 W-rated models rather than 50 W, which would get rather hot. Either way they should be screwed to a big heatsink or lump of metal, and connected using cables/connectors/switches rated for the current.



If you really want to use an inverter, halogen floodlights are still available. The one I've linked is 120W 230V.



(UK links because that's what Google assumes I want)






share|improve this answer


































    1


















    As you know the battery voltage will fall as its charge depletes. Depending on how constant you want the load to be it may need to self-adjust to hold a steady load (wattage).



    Ham radio enthusiasts routinely require a "dummy load" for testing radio transmitters without actually transmitting anything. These are basically high-power 50 ohm resistors.



    On its own a 50 ohm resistor won't do much for you. Connected directly to the 12 V supply it'll consume only V^2/R=2.9 watts. However, if you put a dc-dc boost converter between the battery and the dummy load, then you can push some serious power into it.



    A boost converter that can reach 100 V output from 12 V input will do two things for you: it'll pump 100^2/50=200 watts into the load, and it'll maintain that power as the battery voltage falls. The power level can be adjusted indirectly by adjusting the output voltage of the boost converter. A search for '100 v dc boost converter' on eBay or Amazon yields many options.






    share|improve this answer




























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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes








      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      5


















      Automotive headlamps are the obvious, easy 12V choice, being typically in the 45-55W range (don't get LED headlamps.)



      If you ask the right folks you can often get dual-filament bulbs (high/low beam) with one filament broken for free.






      share|improve this answer






















      • 3





        This takes the medal. The low beam is typically 35W and high beam 55w, and the low beam usually burns out first. DON'T run both hi and low at once, they're not made for that.

        – Harper
        3 hours ago


















      5


















      Automotive headlamps are the obvious, easy 12V choice, being typically in the 45-55W range (don't get LED headlamps.)



      If you ask the right folks you can often get dual-filament bulbs (high/low beam) with one filament broken for free.






      share|improve this answer






















      • 3





        This takes the medal. The low beam is typically 35W and high beam 55w, and the low beam usually burns out first. DON'T run both hi and low at once, they're not made for that.

        – Harper
        3 hours ago
















      5














      5










      5









      Automotive headlamps are the obvious, easy 12V choice, being typically in the 45-55W range (don't get LED headlamps.)



      If you ask the right folks you can often get dual-filament bulbs (high/low beam) with one filament broken for free.






      share|improve this answer














      Automotive headlamps are the obvious, easy 12V choice, being typically in the 45-55W range (don't get LED headlamps.)



      If you ask the right folks you can often get dual-filament bulbs (high/low beam) with one filament broken for free.







      share|improve this answer













      share|improve this answer




      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 6 hours ago









      EcnerwalEcnerwal

      62.7k3 gold badges52 silver badges106 bronze badges




      62.7k3 gold badges52 silver badges106 bronze badges











      • 3





        This takes the medal. The low beam is typically 35W and high beam 55w, and the low beam usually burns out first. DON'T run both hi and low at once, they're not made for that.

        – Harper
        3 hours ago
















      • 3





        This takes the medal. The low beam is typically 35W and high beam 55w, and the low beam usually burns out first. DON'T run both hi and low at once, they're not made for that.

        – Harper
        3 hours ago










      3




      3





      This takes the medal. The low beam is typically 35W and high beam 55w, and the low beam usually burns out first. DON'T run both hi and low at once, they're not made for that.

      – Harper
      3 hours ago







      This takes the medal. The low beam is typically 35W and high beam 55w, and the low beam usually burns out first. DON'T run both hi and low at once, they're not made for that.

      – Harper
      3 hours ago















      2


















      For 12V DC, you are probably looking for halogen bulbs, not incandescent. You should be able to get a few hundred watts of 12v halogen bulbs for about $10 online, and you could even get them in units of 20W or so if you want to refine your testing.






      share|improve this answer






















      • 1





        Halogen bulbs are a subtype of incandescent bulbs, and 20W 12V bulbs are rarely halogen anyway (45W+ headlamp bulbs are). But +1 for a good idea

        – Chris H
        8 hours ago
















      2


















      For 12V DC, you are probably looking for halogen bulbs, not incandescent. You should be able to get a few hundred watts of 12v halogen bulbs for about $10 online, and you could even get them in units of 20W or so if you want to refine your testing.






      share|improve this answer






















      • 1





        Halogen bulbs are a subtype of incandescent bulbs, and 20W 12V bulbs are rarely halogen anyway (45W+ headlamp bulbs are). But +1 for a good idea

        – Chris H
        8 hours ago














      2














      2










      2









      For 12V DC, you are probably looking for halogen bulbs, not incandescent. You should be able to get a few hundred watts of 12v halogen bulbs for about $10 online, and you could even get them in units of 20W or so if you want to refine your testing.






      share|improve this answer














      For 12V DC, you are probably looking for halogen bulbs, not incandescent. You should be able to get a few hundred watts of 12v halogen bulbs for about $10 online, and you could even get them in units of 20W or so if you want to refine your testing.







      share|improve this answer













      share|improve this answer




      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 9 hours ago









      IronEagleIronEagle

      7615 silver badges8 bronze badges




      7615 silver badges8 bronze badges











      • 1





        Halogen bulbs are a subtype of incandescent bulbs, and 20W 12V bulbs are rarely halogen anyway (45W+ headlamp bulbs are). But +1 for a good idea

        – Chris H
        8 hours ago














      • 1





        Halogen bulbs are a subtype of incandescent bulbs, and 20W 12V bulbs are rarely halogen anyway (45W+ headlamp bulbs are). But +1 for a good idea

        – Chris H
        8 hours ago








      1




      1





      Halogen bulbs are a subtype of incandescent bulbs, and 20W 12V bulbs are rarely halogen anyway (45W+ headlamp bulbs are). But +1 for a good idea

      – Chris H
      8 hours ago





      Halogen bulbs are a subtype of incandescent bulbs, and 20W 12V bulbs are rarely halogen anyway (45W+ headlamp bulbs are). But +1 for a good idea

      – Chris H
      8 hours ago











      2


















      You don't need to step up to mains voltage, in fact for experimenting it's best not to.



      There are such things as 12V car fan heaters that are typically 120-150W.



      Or you can buy wire-wound load resistors. A 3 Ω resistor would dissipate 48 W at 12 V, so wiring 3 in parallel would work and allow you to adjust the load. I'd buy 100 W-rated models rather than 50 W, which would get rather hot. Either way they should be screwed to a big heatsink or lump of metal, and connected using cables/connectors/switches rated for the current.



      If you really want to use an inverter, halogen floodlights are still available. The one I've linked is 120W 230V.



      (UK links because that's what Google assumes I want)






      share|improve this answer































        2


















        You don't need to step up to mains voltage, in fact for experimenting it's best not to.



        There are such things as 12V car fan heaters that are typically 120-150W.



        Or you can buy wire-wound load resistors. A 3 Ω resistor would dissipate 48 W at 12 V, so wiring 3 in parallel would work and allow you to adjust the load. I'd buy 100 W-rated models rather than 50 W, which would get rather hot. Either way they should be screwed to a big heatsink or lump of metal, and connected using cables/connectors/switches rated for the current.



        If you really want to use an inverter, halogen floodlights are still available. The one I've linked is 120W 230V.



        (UK links because that's what Google assumes I want)






        share|improve this answer





























          2














          2










          2









          You don't need to step up to mains voltage, in fact for experimenting it's best not to.



          There are such things as 12V car fan heaters that are typically 120-150W.



          Or you can buy wire-wound load resistors. A 3 Ω resistor would dissipate 48 W at 12 V, so wiring 3 in parallel would work and allow you to adjust the load. I'd buy 100 W-rated models rather than 50 W, which would get rather hot. Either way they should be screwed to a big heatsink or lump of metal, and connected using cables/connectors/switches rated for the current.



          If you really want to use an inverter, halogen floodlights are still available. The one I've linked is 120W 230V.



          (UK links because that's what Google assumes I want)






          share|improve this answer














          You don't need to step up to mains voltage, in fact for experimenting it's best not to.



          There are such things as 12V car fan heaters that are typically 120-150W.



          Or you can buy wire-wound load resistors. A 3 Ω resistor would dissipate 48 W at 12 V, so wiring 3 in parallel would work and allow you to adjust the load. I'd buy 100 W-rated models rather than 50 W, which would get rather hot. Either way they should be screwed to a big heatsink or lump of metal, and connected using cables/connectors/switches rated for the current.



          If you really want to use an inverter, halogen floodlights are still available. The one I've linked is 120W 230V.



          (UK links because that's what Google assumes I want)







          share|improve this answer













          share|improve this answer




          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 8 hours ago









          Chris HChris H

          1,6698 silver badges13 bronze badges




          1,6698 silver badges13 bronze badges


























              1


















              As you know the battery voltage will fall as its charge depletes. Depending on how constant you want the load to be it may need to self-adjust to hold a steady load (wattage).



              Ham radio enthusiasts routinely require a "dummy load" for testing radio transmitters without actually transmitting anything. These are basically high-power 50 ohm resistors.



              On its own a 50 ohm resistor won't do much for you. Connected directly to the 12 V supply it'll consume only V^2/R=2.9 watts. However, if you put a dc-dc boost converter between the battery and the dummy load, then you can push some serious power into it.



              A boost converter that can reach 100 V output from 12 V input will do two things for you: it'll pump 100^2/50=200 watts into the load, and it'll maintain that power as the battery voltage falls. The power level can be adjusted indirectly by adjusting the output voltage of the boost converter. A search for '100 v dc boost converter' on eBay or Amazon yields many options.






              share|improve this answer































                1


















                As you know the battery voltage will fall as its charge depletes. Depending on how constant you want the load to be it may need to self-adjust to hold a steady load (wattage).



                Ham radio enthusiasts routinely require a "dummy load" for testing radio transmitters without actually transmitting anything. These are basically high-power 50 ohm resistors.



                On its own a 50 ohm resistor won't do much for you. Connected directly to the 12 V supply it'll consume only V^2/R=2.9 watts. However, if you put a dc-dc boost converter between the battery and the dummy load, then you can push some serious power into it.



                A boost converter that can reach 100 V output from 12 V input will do two things for you: it'll pump 100^2/50=200 watts into the load, and it'll maintain that power as the battery voltage falls. The power level can be adjusted indirectly by adjusting the output voltage of the boost converter. A search for '100 v dc boost converter' on eBay or Amazon yields many options.






                share|improve this answer





























                  1














                  1










                  1









                  As you know the battery voltage will fall as its charge depletes. Depending on how constant you want the load to be it may need to self-adjust to hold a steady load (wattage).



                  Ham radio enthusiasts routinely require a "dummy load" for testing radio transmitters without actually transmitting anything. These are basically high-power 50 ohm resistors.



                  On its own a 50 ohm resistor won't do much for you. Connected directly to the 12 V supply it'll consume only V^2/R=2.9 watts. However, if you put a dc-dc boost converter between the battery and the dummy load, then you can push some serious power into it.



                  A boost converter that can reach 100 V output from 12 V input will do two things for you: it'll pump 100^2/50=200 watts into the load, and it'll maintain that power as the battery voltage falls. The power level can be adjusted indirectly by adjusting the output voltage of the boost converter. A search for '100 v dc boost converter' on eBay or Amazon yields many options.






                  share|improve this answer














                  As you know the battery voltage will fall as its charge depletes. Depending on how constant you want the load to be it may need to self-adjust to hold a steady load (wattage).



                  Ham radio enthusiasts routinely require a "dummy load" for testing radio transmitters without actually transmitting anything. These are basically high-power 50 ohm resistors.



                  On its own a 50 ohm resistor won't do much for you. Connected directly to the 12 V supply it'll consume only V^2/R=2.9 watts. However, if you put a dc-dc boost converter between the battery and the dummy load, then you can push some serious power into it.



                  A boost converter that can reach 100 V output from 12 V input will do two things for you: it'll pump 100^2/50=200 watts into the load, and it'll maintain that power as the battery voltage falls. The power level can be adjusted indirectly by adjusting the output voltage of the boost converter. A search for '100 v dc boost converter' on eBay or Amazon yields many options.







                  share|improve this answer













                  share|improve this answer




                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 6 hours ago









                  Greg HillGreg Hill

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