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Can birds evolve without trees?
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$begingroup$
I wonder whether the birds or other flying animals heavier than air could evolve without trees of other protruding objects?
evolution flight avian
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wonder whether the birds or other flying animals heavier than air could evolve without trees of other protruding objects?
evolution flight avian
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
What makes you think trees are needed to evolve flight?
$endgroup$
– John
7 hours ago
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How many trees are on Antartica?
$endgroup$
– Cyn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Cyn: How many flying birds evolved on Antarctica? (Disregarding those times when plate tectonics had it in a warmer location, so there were trees.)
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf Fair enough.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
11 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wonder whether the birds or other flying animals heavier than air could evolve without trees of other protruding objects?
evolution flight avian
$endgroup$
I wonder whether the birds or other flying animals heavier than air could evolve without trees of other protruding objects?
evolution flight avian
evolution flight avian
edited 6 hours ago
Cyn
18.1k2 gold badges36 silver badges81 bronze badges
18.1k2 gold badges36 silver badges81 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
AnixxAnixx
2,4328 silver badges26 bronze badges
2,4328 silver badges26 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
What makes you think trees are needed to evolve flight?
$endgroup$
– John
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How many trees are on Antartica?
$endgroup$
– Cyn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Cyn: How many flying birds evolved on Antarctica? (Disregarding those times when plate tectonics had it in a warmer location, so there were trees.)
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf Fair enough.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
11 mins ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
What makes you think trees are needed to evolve flight?
$endgroup$
– John
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How many trees are on Antartica?
$endgroup$
– Cyn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Cyn: How many flying birds evolved on Antarctica? (Disregarding those times when plate tectonics had it in a warmer location, so there were trees.)
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf Fair enough.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
11 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
What makes you think trees are needed to evolve flight?
$endgroup$
– John
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
What makes you think trees are needed to evolve flight?
$endgroup$
– John
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
How many trees are on Antartica?
$endgroup$
– Cyn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
How many trees are on Antartica?
$endgroup$
– Cyn
6 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Cyn: How many flying birds evolved on Antarctica? (Disregarding those times when plate tectonics had it in a warmer location, so there were trees.)
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Cyn: How many flying birds evolved on Antarctica? (Disregarding those times when plate tectonics had it in a warmer location, so there were trees.)
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf Fair enough.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
11 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jamesqf Fair enough.
$endgroup$
– Cyn
11 mins ago
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Trees were not involved with the evolution of flight in birds.
Birds did not evolve flight from gliders but from ground running predatory jumpers, birds are about the most poorly designed climbers you could design there is zero support for tree climbing in early birds. So yes bird flight can and did evolve without the use of trees.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, flying fish evolved without trees or other protruding objects to help lift them out of the water, so I'm going to say "yes". And the initial motivations would probably be the same: to better avoid predators.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Flying fish don't use powered flight, though. They glide. Aerodynamics is not that much different from hydrodynamics, but both are greatly different from running around on land.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The first tree is probably 385 million years old. The first winged insect is probably 400 million years old.
These numbers are approximate, but our understanding of geology and palaeontology should mean these are accurate enough. Insects seem to predate trees by 15 million years. That is a lot of time - about the same distance in time between now and the release of the last book in the Game of Throne series!
To be honest, though... About 430 million years ago there were fungi whose fruiting bodies could reach up to 8m in height. They could have served the same role as trees for insects. And they predate insects by about 30 million years, or about the timespan between the roman empire and the release of Half Life 3.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Possibly, there were high grasses as well.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also - various geological formations that could form a barrier, such as rivers, high rocks, etc etc
$endgroup$
– Chromane
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
The aerodynamics of insects - especially the smaller ones - is much different than that of birds, though.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Probably.
The most accurate answer to a question like this is always going to be “We don’t know.” Evolution is an incredibly complex and fundamentally random process so there are no definitive answers here. But, that said, I think there’s good reason to believe flight probably would have evolved even without trees or other protrusions.
Flight is thought to have evolved 4 separate times on Earth. In insects, pterosaurs, bats, and birds. This suggests that flight isn’t extraordinarily difficult to evolve and serves as a useful adaptation in a variety of environments for a variety of organisms.
While trees certainly play a large part in the lives of plenty of birds, many birds thrive in treeless environments. Waterfowl like ducks spend their time swimming and generally build their nests on the ground. Seabirds like cormorants spend their lives fishing and often nest in colonies on the ground. There are also ground birds such as quails that nest and feed on the ground often in treeless areas. In all of these cases, some of the birds in these habitats have lost their ability to fly which implies that in the absence of trees flight isn't perhaps as critical to their survival. But most of these bird species living in treeless environments have retained their ability to fly which implies that it remains a useful ability for these organisms to find food, escape predators, or migrate.
Birds certainly tend to take advantage of trees when they are available but their success in treeless environments tells us that the safety of trees is not the only advantage of flight and suggests that there is ample reason for flight to evolve even in the absence of trees.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You can also add Pteromys volans and Exocoetidae, while not fully developed fly, a step towards it, definitely.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I agree with the existing answers, what it comes down to is the question of what benefit does a creature get that makes the adaptation of flight worth it?
There are two basic benefits that I can see that a flying animal may have over a land based animal; protection and ambush.
The first is obvious; if you can take flight, you can scan a larger area for threats, but also you can escape those threats if you're on the ground via a vector your attacker probably can't follow. As for the second, well if there aren't a lot of other fliers out there yet, perhaps your prey doesn't know to look up from time to time and won't see you coming.
Of course, this makes the most sense if the energy tradeoff is small, therefore it follows that the first flying creatures would be as small as is practicable, taking advantage of the square cube law. It's little wonder therefore that the first flying creatures were small insects.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Trees were not involved with the evolution of flight in birds.
Birds did not evolve flight from gliders but from ground running predatory jumpers, birds are about the most poorly designed climbers you could design there is zero support for tree climbing in early birds. So yes bird flight can and did evolve without the use of trees.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Trees were not involved with the evolution of flight in birds.
Birds did not evolve flight from gliders but from ground running predatory jumpers, birds are about the most poorly designed climbers you could design there is zero support for tree climbing in early birds. So yes bird flight can and did evolve without the use of trees.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Trees were not involved with the evolution of flight in birds.
Birds did not evolve flight from gliders but from ground running predatory jumpers, birds are about the most poorly designed climbers you could design there is zero support for tree climbing in early birds. So yes bird flight can and did evolve without the use of trees.
$endgroup$
Trees were not involved with the evolution of flight in birds.
Birds did not evolve flight from gliders but from ground running predatory jumpers, birds are about the most poorly designed climbers you could design there is zero support for tree climbing in early birds. So yes bird flight can and did evolve without the use of trees.
answered 7 hours ago
JohnJohn
40.2k10 gold badges56 silver badges137 bronze badges
40.2k10 gold badges56 silver badges137 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, flying fish evolved without trees or other protruding objects to help lift them out of the water, so I'm going to say "yes". And the initial motivations would probably be the same: to better avoid predators.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Flying fish don't use powered flight, though. They glide. Aerodynamics is not that much different from hydrodynamics, but both are greatly different from running around on land.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, flying fish evolved without trees or other protruding objects to help lift them out of the water, so I'm going to say "yes". And the initial motivations would probably be the same: to better avoid predators.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Flying fish don't use powered flight, though. They glide. Aerodynamics is not that much different from hydrodynamics, but both are greatly different from running around on land.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Well, flying fish evolved without trees or other protruding objects to help lift them out of the water, so I'm going to say "yes". And the initial motivations would probably be the same: to better avoid predators.
$endgroup$
Well, flying fish evolved without trees or other protruding objects to help lift them out of the water, so I'm going to say "yes". And the initial motivations would probably be the same: to better avoid predators.
answered 8 hours ago
Logan R. KearsleyLogan R. Kearsley
13.8k1 gold badge37 silver badges65 bronze badges
13.8k1 gold badge37 silver badges65 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Flying fish don't use powered flight, though. They glide. Aerodynamics is not that much different from hydrodynamics, but both are greatly different from running around on land.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Flying fish don't use powered flight, though. They glide. Aerodynamics is not that much different from hydrodynamics, but both are greatly different from running around on land.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Flying fish don't use powered flight, though. They glide. Aerodynamics is not that much different from hydrodynamics, but both are greatly different from running around on land.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Flying fish don't use powered flight, though. They glide. Aerodynamics is not that much different from hydrodynamics, but both are greatly different from running around on land.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The first tree is probably 385 million years old. The first winged insect is probably 400 million years old.
These numbers are approximate, but our understanding of geology and palaeontology should mean these are accurate enough. Insects seem to predate trees by 15 million years. That is a lot of time - about the same distance in time between now and the release of the last book in the Game of Throne series!
To be honest, though... About 430 million years ago there were fungi whose fruiting bodies could reach up to 8m in height. They could have served the same role as trees for insects. And they predate insects by about 30 million years, or about the timespan between the roman empire and the release of Half Life 3.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Possibly, there were high grasses as well.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also - various geological formations that could form a barrier, such as rivers, high rocks, etc etc
$endgroup$
– Chromane
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
The aerodynamics of insects - especially the smaller ones - is much different than that of birds, though.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The first tree is probably 385 million years old. The first winged insect is probably 400 million years old.
These numbers are approximate, but our understanding of geology and palaeontology should mean these are accurate enough. Insects seem to predate trees by 15 million years. That is a lot of time - about the same distance in time between now and the release of the last book in the Game of Throne series!
To be honest, though... About 430 million years ago there were fungi whose fruiting bodies could reach up to 8m in height. They could have served the same role as trees for insects. And they predate insects by about 30 million years, or about the timespan between the roman empire and the release of Half Life 3.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Possibly, there were high grasses as well.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also - various geological formations that could form a barrier, such as rivers, high rocks, etc etc
$endgroup$
– Chromane
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
The aerodynamics of insects - especially the smaller ones - is much different than that of birds, though.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The first tree is probably 385 million years old. The first winged insect is probably 400 million years old.
These numbers are approximate, but our understanding of geology and palaeontology should mean these are accurate enough. Insects seem to predate trees by 15 million years. That is a lot of time - about the same distance in time between now and the release of the last book in the Game of Throne series!
To be honest, though... About 430 million years ago there were fungi whose fruiting bodies could reach up to 8m in height. They could have served the same role as trees for insects. And they predate insects by about 30 million years, or about the timespan between the roman empire and the release of Half Life 3.
$endgroup$
The first tree is probably 385 million years old. The first winged insect is probably 400 million years old.
These numbers are approximate, but our understanding of geology and palaeontology should mean these are accurate enough. Insects seem to predate trees by 15 million years. That is a lot of time - about the same distance in time between now and the release of the last book in the Game of Throne series!
To be honest, though... About 430 million years ago there were fungi whose fruiting bodies could reach up to 8m in height. They could have served the same role as trees for insects. And they predate insects by about 30 million years, or about the timespan between the roman empire and the release of Half Life 3.
answered 8 hours ago
RenanRenan
62.5k19 gold badges149 silver badges303 bronze badges
62.5k19 gold badges149 silver badges303 bronze badges
$begingroup$
Possibly, there were high grasses as well.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also - various geological formations that could form a barrier, such as rivers, high rocks, etc etc
$endgroup$
– Chromane
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
The aerodynamics of insects - especially the smaller ones - is much different than that of birds, though.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Possibly, there were high grasses as well.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also - various geological formations that could form a barrier, such as rivers, high rocks, etc etc
$endgroup$
– Chromane
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
The aerodynamics of insects - especially the smaller ones - is much different than that of birds, though.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Possibly, there were high grasses as well.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Possibly, there were high grasses as well.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
8 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also - various geological formations that could form a barrier, such as rivers, high rocks, etc etc
$endgroup$
– Chromane
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
Also - various geological formations that could form a barrier, such as rivers, high rocks, etc etc
$endgroup$
– Chromane
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
The aerodynamics of insects - especially the smaller ones - is much different than that of birds, though.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
The aerodynamics of insects - especially the smaller ones - is much different than that of birds, though.
$endgroup$
– jamesqf
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Probably.
The most accurate answer to a question like this is always going to be “We don’t know.” Evolution is an incredibly complex and fundamentally random process so there are no definitive answers here. But, that said, I think there’s good reason to believe flight probably would have evolved even without trees or other protrusions.
Flight is thought to have evolved 4 separate times on Earth. In insects, pterosaurs, bats, and birds. This suggests that flight isn’t extraordinarily difficult to evolve and serves as a useful adaptation in a variety of environments for a variety of organisms.
While trees certainly play a large part in the lives of plenty of birds, many birds thrive in treeless environments. Waterfowl like ducks spend their time swimming and generally build their nests on the ground. Seabirds like cormorants spend their lives fishing and often nest in colonies on the ground. There are also ground birds such as quails that nest and feed on the ground often in treeless areas. In all of these cases, some of the birds in these habitats have lost their ability to fly which implies that in the absence of trees flight isn't perhaps as critical to their survival. But most of these bird species living in treeless environments have retained their ability to fly which implies that it remains a useful ability for these organisms to find food, escape predators, or migrate.
Birds certainly tend to take advantage of trees when they are available but their success in treeless environments tells us that the safety of trees is not the only advantage of flight and suggests that there is ample reason for flight to evolve even in the absence of trees.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You can also add Pteromys volans and Exocoetidae, while not fully developed fly, a step towards it, definitely.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Probably.
The most accurate answer to a question like this is always going to be “We don’t know.” Evolution is an incredibly complex and fundamentally random process so there are no definitive answers here. But, that said, I think there’s good reason to believe flight probably would have evolved even without trees or other protrusions.
Flight is thought to have evolved 4 separate times on Earth. In insects, pterosaurs, bats, and birds. This suggests that flight isn’t extraordinarily difficult to evolve and serves as a useful adaptation in a variety of environments for a variety of organisms.
While trees certainly play a large part in the lives of plenty of birds, many birds thrive in treeless environments. Waterfowl like ducks spend their time swimming and generally build their nests on the ground. Seabirds like cormorants spend their lives fishing and often nest in colonies on the ground. There are also ground birds such as quails that nest and feed on the ground often in treeless areas. In all of these cases, some of the birds in these habitats have lost their ability to fly which implies that in the absence of trees flight isn't perhaps as critical to their survival. But most of these bird species living in treeless environments have retained their ability to fly which implies that it remains a useful ability for these organisms to find food, escape predators, or migrate.
Birds certainly tend to take advantage of trees when they are available but their success in treeless environments tells us that the safety of trees is not the only advantage of flight and suggests that there is ample reason for flight to evolve even in the absence of trees.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
You can also add Pteromys volans and Exocoetidae, while not fully developed fly, a step towards it, definitely.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Probably.
The most accurate answer to a question like this is always going to be “We don’t know.” Evolution is an incredibly complex and fundamentally random process so there are no definitive answers here. But, that said, I think there’s good reason to believe flight probably would have evolved even without trees or other protrusions.
Flight is thought to have evolved 4 separate times on Earth. In insects, pterosaurs, bats, and birds. This suggests that flight isn’t extraordinarily difficult to evolve and serves as a useful adaptation in a variety of environments for a variety of organisms.
While trees certainly play a large part in the lives of plenty of birds, many birds thrive in treeless environments. Waterfowl like ducks spend their time swimming and generally build their nests on the ground. Seabirds like cormorants spend their lives fishing and often nest in colonies on the ground. There are also ground birds such as quails that nest and feed on the ground often in treeless areas. In all of these cases, some of the birds in these habitats have lost their ability to fly which implies that in the absence of trees flight isn't perhaps as critical to their survival. But most of these bird species living in treeless environments have retained their ability to fly which implies that it remains a useful ability for these organisms to find food, escape predators, or migrate.
Birds certainly tend to take advantage of trees when they are available but their success in treeless environments tells us that the safety of trees is not the only advantage of flight and suggests that there is ample reason for flight to evolve even in the absence of trees.
$endgroup$
Probably.
The most accurate answer to a question like this is always going to be “We don’t know.” Evolution is an incredibly complex and fundamentally random process so there are no definitive answers here. But, that said, I think there’s good reason to believe flight probably would have evolved even without trees or other protrusions.
Flight is thought to have evolved 4 separate times on Earth. In insects, pterosaurs, bats, and birds. This suggests that flight isn’t extraordinarily difficult to evolve and serves as a useful adaptation in a variety of environments for a variety of organisms.
While trees certainly play a large part in the lives of plenty of birds, many birds thrive in treeless environments. Waterfowl like ducks spend their time swimming and generally build their nests on the ground. Seabirds like cormorants spend their lives fishing and often nest in colonies on the ground. There are also ground birds such as quails that nest and feed on the ground often in treeless areas. In all of these cases, some of the birds in these habitats have lost their ability to fly which implies that in the absence of trees flight isn't perhaps as critical to their survival. But most of these bird species living in treeless environments have retained their ability to fly which implies that it remains a useful ability for these organisms to find food, escape predators, or migrate.
Birds certainly tend to take advantage of trees when they are available but their success in treeless environments tells us that the safety of trees is not the only advantage of flight and suggests that there is ample reason for flight to evolve even in the absence of trees.
answered 7 hours ago
Mike NicholsMike Nichols
9,5287 gold badges31 silver badges74 bronze badges
9,5287 gold badges31 silver badges74 bronze badges
$begingroup$
You can also add Pteromys volans and Exocoetidae, while not fully developed fly, a step towards it, definitely.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You can also add Pteromys volans and Exocoetidae, while not fully developed fly, a step towards it, definitely.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can also add Pteromys volans and Exocoetidae, while not fully developed fly, a step towards it, definitely.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
7 hours ago
$begingroup$
You can also add Pteromys volans and Exocoetidae, while not fully developed fly, a step towards it, definitely.
$endgroup$
– Anixx
7 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I agree with the existing answers, what it comes down to is the question of what benefit does a creature get that makes the adaptation of flight worth it?
There are two basic benefits that I can see that a flying animal may have over a land based animal; protection and ambush.
The first is obvious; if you can take flight, you can scan a larger area for threats, but also you can escape those threats if you're on the ground via a vector your attacker probably can't follow. As for the second, well if there aren't a lot of other fliers out there yet, perhaps your prey doesn't know to look up from time to time and won't see you coming.
Of course, this makes the most sense if the energy tradeoff is small, therefore it follows that the first flying creatures would be as small as is practicable, taking advantage of the square cube law. It's little wonder therefore that the first flying creatures were small insects.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I agree with the existing answers, what it comes down to is the question of what benefit does a creature get that makes the adaptation of flight worth it?
There are two basic benefits that I can see that a flying animal may have over a land based animal; protection and ambush.
The first is obvious; if you can take flight, you can scan a larger area for threats, but also you can escape those threats if you're on the ground via a vector your attacker probably can't follow. As for the second, well if there aren't a lot of other fliers out there yet, perhaps your prey doesn't know to look up from time to time and won't see you coming.
Of course, this makes the most sense if the energy tradeoff is small, therefore it follows that the first flying creatures would be as small as is practicable, taking advantage of the square cube law. It's little wonder therefore that the first flying creatures were small insects.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
While I agree with the existing answers, what it comes down to is the question of what benefit does a creature get that makes the adaptation of flight worth it?
There are two basic benefits that I can see that a flying animal may have over a land based animal; protection and ambush.
The first is obvious; if you can take flight, you can scan a larger area for threats, but also you can escape those threats if you're on the ground via a vector your attacker probably can't follow. As for the second, well if there aren't a lot of other fliers out there yet, perhaps your prey doesn't know to look up from time to time and won't see you coming.
Of course, this makes the most sense if the energy tradeoff is small, therefore it follows that the first flying creatures would be as small as is practicable, taking advantage of the square cube law. It's little wonder therefore that the first flying creatures were small insects.
$endgroup$
While I agree with the existing answers, what it comes down to is the question of what benefit does a creature get that makes the adaptation of flight worth it?
There are two basic benefits that I can see that a flying animal may have over a land based animal; protection and ambush.
The first is obvious; if you can take flight, you can scan a larger area for threats, but also you can escape those threats if you're on the ground via a vector your attacker probably can't follow. As for the second, well if there aren't a lot of other fliers out there yet, perhaps your prey doesn't know to look up from time to time and won't see you coming.
Of course, this makes the most sense if the energy tradeoff is small, therefore it follows that the first flying creatures would be as small as is practicable, taking advantage of the square cube law. It's little wonder therefore that the first flying creatures were small insects.
answered 1 hour ago
Tim B IITim B II
38.9k6 gold badges84 silver badges154 bronze badges
38.9k6 gold badges84 silver badges154 bronze badges
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add a comment |
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1
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What makes you think trees are needed to evolve flight?
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– John
7 hours ago
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How many trees are on Antartica?
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– Cyn
6 hours ago
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@Cyn: How many flying birds evolved on Antarctica? (Disregarding those times when plate tectonics had it in a warmer location, so there were trees.)
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– jamesqf
2 hours ago
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@jamesqf Fair enough.
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– Cyn
11 mins ago