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Music Theory: Facts or Hierarchy of Opinions?


How does one start learning music theory?Why Is Just Intonation Impractical?Do we find music arranged according to Western Music Theory pleasing because of “biological instinct” or because of what we learn?Is there any “research” in music theory?Music Theory Classification SystemsDo capable harmony singers sing in just intonation or tempered tuning?musical theory of lullabiesWhen was music theory first studied?Is it possible to understand and enjoy classical music just by listening, without music theory knowledge?What order should I learn music theory?






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}







1















To get right to the point, what I want to know is: what makes a claim acceptable in the world of music theory?



From my understanding, music theory has very little to do with any "natural law" or inherent property of the universe, save consonance from the harmonic series, 12-TET as an approximation for simple harmonic ratios, and major and minor as maximally even in a 12 note system. Still, there isn't any underlying reason for why the harmonic series, simple ratios, or maximal even-ness should affect us in the first place.



Why then can a claim like, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," go unchallenged, but saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo? (Just to give an example)



It seems to me that the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity. Am I wrong? Is there actually a science underlying music theory?










share|improve this question




















  • 7





    Music theory doesn’t describe physical principles of sound, it describes characteristics of aesthetic. Theory branches extensively throughout history as culture / music changed. Theoretical rules only hold water relative to their context. These rules are usually presented as absolutes to students just to avoid philosophical conjecture and prevent them from getting overwhelmed.

    – jjmusicnotes
    8 hours ago






  • 3





    A lot of music theory (and a very practical and useful part for communication) is just naming things: intervals, scales, chords, cadences, formal elements, etc. I wouldn't say that any of that is scientific in any way, but those parts are not opinion (save that sometimes a thing can be named more than one way, or one name may be better than another for some purpose). This factual component is descriptive and aids in conceptualization, analysis, and communication; you don't need science to justify facts all of the time.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    On the point of "certain intervals elicit certain emotions," that is just demonstrably wrong.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago











  • @DavidBowling I brought up intervals and emotions based on Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation. Also, I meant the examples only to be illustrative. As for music theory existing to create a common musical language, I agree it's necessary. I should have specified that I was not referring to that aspect of music theory.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @PhoenixMorrison -- I did take it to be an example, not necessarily your position; I commented on that more with respect to "the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity." There are plenty of minor key songs that don't sound sad at all; for my money, intervals have specific qualities that are below the level of emotion. We can combine them with tempo, dynamics, phrasing, composition, etc. to create (or suggest) emotional content. We may have some predispositions about intervals, but that is all out the window in the context and complexity of actual music. Rant off ;)

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago


















1















To get right to the point, what I want to know is: what makes a claim acceptable in the world of music theory?



From my understanding, music theory has very little to do with any "natural law" or inherent property of the universe, save consonance from the harmonic series, 12-TET as an approximation for simple harmonic ratios, and major and minor as maximally even in a 12 note system. Still, there isn't any underlying reason for why the harmonic series, simple ratios, or maximal even-ness should affect us in the first place.



Why then can a claim like, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," go unchallenged, but saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo? (Just to give an example)



It seems to me that the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity. Am I wrong? Is there actually a science underlying music theory?










share|improve this question




















  • 7





    Music theory doesn’t describe physical principles of sound, it describes characteristics of aesthetic. Theory branches extensively throughout history as culture / music changed. Theoretical rules only hold water relative to their context. These rules are usually presented as absolutes to students just to avoid philosophical conjecture and prevent them from getting overwhelmed.

    – jjmusicnotes
    8 hours ago






  • 3





    A lot of music theory (and a very practical and useful part for communication) is just naming things: intervals, scales, chords, cadences, formal elements, etc. I wouldn't say that any of that is scientific in any way, but those parts are not opinion (save that sometimes a thing can be named more than one way, or one name may be better than another for some purpose). This factual component is descriptive and aids in conceptualization, analysis, and communication; you don't need science to justify facts all of the time.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    On the point of "certain intervals elicit certain emotions," that is just demonstrably wrong.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago











  • @DavidBowling I brought up intervals and emotions based on Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation. Also, I meant the examples only to be illustrative. As for music theory existing to create a common musical language, I agree it's necessary. I should have specified that I was not referring to that aspect of music theory.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @PhoenixMorrison -- I did take it to be an example, not necessarily your position; I commented on that more with respect to "the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity." There are plenty of minor key songs that don't sound sad at all; for my money, intervals have specific qualities that are below the level of emotion. We can combine them with tempo, dynamics, phrasing, composition, etc. to create (or suggest) emotional content. We may have some predispositions about intervals, but that is all out the window in the context and complexity of actual music. Rant off ;)

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago














1












1








1








To get right to the point, what I want to know is: what makes a claim acceptable in the world of music theory?



From my understanding, music theory has very little to do with any "natural law" or inherent property of the universe, save consonance from the harmonic series, 12-TET as an approximation for simple harmonic ratios, and major and minor as maximally even in a 12 note system. Still, there isn't any underlying reason for why the harmonic series, simple ratios, or maximal even-ness should affect us in the first place.



Why then can a claim like, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," go unchallenged, but saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo? (Just to give an example)



It seems to me that the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity. Am I wrong? Is there actually a science underlying music theory?










share|improve this question














To get right to the point, what I want to know is: what makes a claim acceptable in the world of music theory?



From my understanding, music theory has very little to do with any "natural law" or inherent property of the universe, save consonance from the harmonic series, 12-TET as an approximation for simple harmonic ratios, and major and minor as maximally even in a 12 note system. Still, there isn't any underlying reason for why the harmonic series, simple ratios, or maximal even-ness should affect us in the first place.



Why then can a claim like, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," go unchallenged, but saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo? (Just to give an example)



It seems to me that the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity. Am I wrong? Is there actually a science underlying music theory?







theory learning history musicology






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 8 hours ago









Phoenix MorrisonPhoenix Morrison

768 bronze badges




768 bronze badges











  • 7





    Music theory doesn’t describe physical principles of sound, it describes characteristics of aesthetic. Theory branches extensively throughout history as culture / music changed. Theoretical rules only hold water relative to their context. These rules are usually presented as absolutes to students just to avoid philosophical conjecture and prevent them from getting overwhelmed.

    – jjmusicnotes
    8 hours ago






  • 3





    A lot of music theory (and a very practical and useful part for communication) is just naming things: intervals, scales, chords, cadences, formal elements, etc. I wouldn't say that any of that is scientific in any way, but those parts are not opinion (save that sometimes a thing can be named more than one way, or one name may be better than another for some purpose). This factual component is descriptive and aids in conceptualization, analysis, and communication; you don't need science to justify facts all of the time.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    On the point of "certain intervals elicit certain emotions," that is just demonstrably wrong.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago











  • @DavidBowling I brought up intervals and emotions based on Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation. Also, I meant the examples only to be illustrative. As for music theory existing to create a common musical language, I agree it's necessary. I should have specified that I was not referring to that aspect of music theory.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @PhoenixMorrison -- I did take it to be an example, not necessarily your position; I commented on that more with respect to "the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity." There are plenty of minor key songs that don't sound sad at all; for my money, intervals have specific qualities that are below the level of emotion. We can combine them with tempo, dynamics, phrasing, composition, etc. to create (or suggest) emotional content. We may have some predispositions about intervals, but that is all out the window in the context and complexity of actual music. Rant off ;)

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago














  • 7





    Music theory doesn’t describe physical principles of sound, it describes characteristics of aesthetic. Theory branches extensively throughout history as culture / music changed. Theoretical rules only hold water relative to their context. These rules are usually presented as absolutes to students just to avoid philosophical conjecture and prevent them from getting overwhelmed.

    – jjmusicnotes
    8 hours ago






  • 3





    A lot of music theory (and a very practical and useful part for communication) is just naming things: intervals, scales, chords, cadences, formal elements, etc. I wouldn't say that any of that is scientific in any way, but those parts are not opinion (save that sometimes a thing can be named more than one way, or one name may be better than another for some purpose). This factual component is descriptive and aids in conceptualization, analysis, and communication; you don't need science to justify facts all of the time.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago






  • 1





    On the point of "certain intervals elicit certain emotions," that is just demonstrably wrong.

    – David Bowling
    8 hours ago











  • @DavidBowling I brought up intervals and emotions based on Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation. Also, I meant the examples only to be illustrative. As for music theory existing to create a common musical language, I agree it's necessary. I should have specified that I was not referring to that aspect of music theory.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @PhoenixMorrison -- I did take it to be an example, not necessarily your position; I commented on that more with respect to "the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity." There are plenty of minor key songs that don't sound sad at all; for my money, intervals have specific qualities that are below the level of emotion. We can combine them with tempo, dynamics, phrasing, composition, etc. to create (or suggest) emotional content. We may have some predispositions about intervals, but that is all out the window in the context and complexity of actual music. Rant off ;)

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago








7




7





Music theory doesn’t describe physical principles of sound, it describes characteristics of aesthetic. Theory branches extensively throughout history as culture / music changed. Theoretical rules only hold water relative to their context. These rules are usually presented as absolutes to students just to avoid philosophical conjecture and prevent them from getting overwhelmed.

– jjmusicnotes
8 hours ago





Music theory doesn’t describe physical principles of sound, it describes characteristics of aesthetic. Theory branches extensively throughout history as culture / music changed. Theoretical rules only hold water relative to their context. These rules are usually presented as absolutes to students just to avoid philosophical conjecture and prevent them from getting overwhelmed.

– jjmusicnotes
8 hours ago




3




3





A lot of music theory (and a very practical and useful part for communication) is just naming things: intervals, scales, chords, cadences, formal elements, etc. I wouldn't say that any of that is scientific in any way, but those parts are not opinion (save that sometimes a thing can be named more than one way, or one name may be better than another for some purpose). This factual component is descriptive and aids in conceptualization, analysis, and communication; you don't need science to justify facts all of the time.

– David Bowling
8 hours ago





A lot of music theory (and a very practical and useful part for communication) is just naming things: intervals, scales, chords, cadences, formal elements, etc. I wouldn't say that any of that is scientific in any way, but those parts are not opinion (save that sometimes a thing can be named more than one way, or one name may be better than another for some purpose). This factual component is descriptive and aids in conceptualization, analysis, and communication; you don't need science to justify facts all of the time.

– David Bowling
8 hours ago




1




1





On the point of "certain intervals elicit certain emotions," that is just demonstrably wrong.

– David Bowling
8 hours ago





On the point of "certain intervals elicit certain emotions," that is just demonstrably wrong.

– David Bowling
8 hours ago













@DavidBowling I brought up intervals and emotions based on Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation. Also, I meant the examples only to be illustrative. As for music theory existing to create a common musical language, I agree it's necessary. I should have specified that I was not referring to that aspect of music theory.

– Phoenix Morrison
7 hours ago





@DavidBowling I brought up intervals and emotions based on Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation. Also, I meant the examples only to be illustrative. As for music theory existing to create a common musical language, I agree it's necessary. I should have specified that I was not referring to that aspect of music theory.

– Phoenix Morrison
7 hours ago




2




2





@PhoenixMorrison -- I did take it to be an example, not necessarily your position; I commented on that more with respect to "the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity." There are plenty of minor key songs that don't sound sad at all; for my money, intervals have specific qualities that are below the level of emotion. We can combine them with tempo, dynamics, phrasing, composition, etc. to create (or suggest) emotional content. We may have some predispositions about intervals, but that is all out the window in the context and complexity of actual music. Rant off ;)

– David Bowling
7 hours ago





@PhoenixMorrison -- I did take it to be an example, not necessarily your position; I commented on that more with respect to "the only difference between the two previous statements is popularity." There are plenty of minor key songs that don't sound sad at all; for my money, intervals have specific qualities that are below the level of emotion. We can combine them with tempo, dynamics, phrasing, composition, etc. to create (or suggest) emotional content. We may have some predispositions about intervals, but that is all out the window in the context and complexity of actual music. Rant off ;)

– David Bowling
7 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















4














I would say that music theory spans a range of 'types' of statements, from almost totally objective to quite subjective...



You've got elements that are pretty much scientific facts, such as what the harmonic series is, or how the physics of instruments works, or how the mechanics of the ear work.



Then you've got a level of stuff that is technically 'subjective', yet that has been somewhat scientifically observed (through formal experiments) to be reasonably common human experience - things like how dissonance is perceived, and how pitch relates to frequency.



Then there are things that seem very common (perception of a 'tonic'), (perception of tension and resolution) the specifics of which still seem to vary a little with musical culture. Somewhere around this level are some of the more obvious explicitly 'emotional' rules too - at least the most common things like people perceiving the minor as (massive simplification coming up...) 'sad'.



There are then the more culturally-specific things - things like the oft-quoted "no parallel fifths". These could be seen as opinions, or alternatively, as somewhat objective advice on how to write in a particular style based on the characteristics of a corpus of past works. In any case, these stylistic choices seem to be down to preferences - we're well away from the purely objective by this point.



Of course at some level, reaction to music becomes so personal that it can't be codified as any kind of theory. Sometimes it might seem unintuitive to me that not all others feel the same powerful reactions to certain chord motions and timbres that I do; if they did, some of my favourite music would be a lot more popular!



After so many years of music history, including a few generations now where we've had a lot of cross-pollination of genres around the globe, perhaps it's impossible to place perception of some phenomena precisely on the subjective/objective axis. I'm sure some will disagree with my assessments here!



Some might say that the more scientific stuff belongs in acoustics, or psychology. I understand the point, but I think if you chip away too much at each end (moving the scientific stuff into 'science', and the subjective stuff into 'opinion') a lot of music theory disappears. I prefer the fatter view!






share|improve this answer























  • 2





    @Dom Of course people who study music actively can see more subtlety and detail than simply "minor is sad" - but there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences, at least within those exposed to Western music.

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Everything you say about parallel 5ths sounds cultural to me - perhaps we have different understandings of the term 'culture'!

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto -- "there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences...." Sure, but I don't have a lot of faith in the value of those studies. I don't think that a typical western audience hears "Minor Swing" (Django Reinhardt), "Minor Mystery" (Barney Kessel), or "Hava Nagila" as being sad songs. IIRC the most commonly heard recording of Django playing "Minor Swing" ends with cheers, and "Hava Nagila" certainly is accompanied by cheers often enough. I just don't see minor <=> sad as a useful generalization.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    Other than that, I generally agree with your notion that there are many types of statements under the rubric of music theory.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto I agree with topomorto. Here’s the back up by this research : URL

    – user506602
    6 hours ago



















6















...the leading tone wants to rise to the root...




Basic theory says things like...




  • the leading tone is a half step below the tonic

  • in a proper cadence the leading tone moves to the tonic, or if in a inner voice it may move down to the dominant.


...of course that isn't a complete theoretical overview of the leading tone.



A claim that theory simply says 'the leading tone moves to the tonic' is incomplete, and as a description of actual musical art it complete nonsense.



I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws.




...saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo?




Again, the specifics of wording matter, and it's easy to misstate things. 'Certain emotions' is not the same meaning as 'emotions.' Obviously intervals and all other musical devices can elicit emotions. The problem is trying to make certain claims like minor thirds are sad or diminished fifths are scary. Statements like that are too broad and won't withstand any scrutiny.



Good theory texts will describe expressive possibilities - not one to one formulas - and provide real musical excerpts to illustrate the ideas.



I think you want to distinguish between what music IS - an art - and music theory which is a way to describe music with some objectivity.



Art does whatever it wants. The theoreticians try to make a theory to describe what the art did.



Keep in mind it's a theory about art not a scientific theory. Acoustics is science and not the same as music theory. Confusing the two is another common mistake.




Music Theory: Facts or Hierarchy of Opinions?




Neither. I would say it's more like qualified statements about common musical practices using established terminology.





EDIT



Just adding something about rules after reading @topo-morto's answer.



You often hear "there are not rules in music." Well... there are, and there aren't. We need to distinguish music theory from specific style practices and pedagogy.



No parallel fifths is a good example to use.



These is such a rule... in Fux's species counterpoint. That's pedagogy.



You will see parallel fifth scrupulously avoided in most "classical" music... except in musettes, fanfares, and other specific cases. It's called common practice. On the other hand, in heavy metal parallel fifths are practically a requirement! That style.



Two voices moving in parallel fifth differ only in one voice being an exact transposition of the other. There is no difference in melodic contour between the two voice. Pitch-wise the two voice exhibit very little independence. That's an objective description, non-specific about style, is neither prescription nor proscription, and makes no aesthetic evaluation. That's music theory.



And just as an aside, I think the only thing acoustics and math will tell us about parallel fifths is that if you use an instrument with fixed tuning, it is mathematically impossible to play two absolutely perfect, consecutive fifths.






share|improve this answer























  • 3





    "I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws." -- I think you've hit the nail on the head here; you can only make sense of a system of thought by understanding the system as a whole, on its own terms.

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago











  • Thank you for your answer. To clarify, when I said, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," I did not intend to state that it is a universal rule of music theory, but more that when used in certain circumstances it has valid explanatory power. On the other hand, I am referencing the connection between interval and emotion because of Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago
















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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4














I would say that music theory spans a range of 'types' of statements, from almost totally objective to quite subjective...



You've got elements that are pretty much scientific facts, such as what the harmonic series is, or how the physics of instruments works, or how the mechanics of the ear work.



Then you've got a level of stuff that is technically 'subjective', yet that has been somewhat scientifically observed (through formal experiments) to be reasonably common human experience - things like how dissonance is perceived, and how pitch relates to frequency.



Then there are things that seem very common (perception of a 'tonic'), (perception of tension and resolution) the specifics of which still seem to vary a little with musical culture. Somewhere around this level are some of the more obvious explicitly 'emotional' rules too - at least the most common things like people perceiving the minor as (massive simplification coming up...) 'sad'.



There are then the more culturally-specific things - things like the oft-quoted "no parallel fifths". These could be seen as opinions, or alternatively, as somewhat objective advice on how to write in a particular style based on the characteristics of a corpus of past works. In any case, these stylistic choices seem to be down to preferences - we're well away from the purely objective by this point.



Of course at some level, reaction to music becomes so personal that it can't be codified as any kind of theory. Sometimes it might seem unintuitive to me that not all others feel the same powerful reactions to certain chord motions and timbres that I do; if they did, some of my favourite music would be a lot more popular!



After so many years of music history, including a few generations now where we've had a lot of cross-pollination of genres around the globe, perhaps it's impossible to place perception of some phenomena precisely on the subjective/objective axis. I'm sure some will disagree with my assessments here!



Some might say that the more scientific stuff belongs in acoustics, or psychology. I understand the point, but I think if you chip away too much at each end (moving the scientific stuff into 'science', and the subjective stuff into 'opinion') a lot of music theory disappears. I prefer the fatter view!






share|improve this answer























  • 2





    @Dom Of course people who study music actively can see more subtlety and detail than simply "minor is sad" - but there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences, at least within those exposed to Western music.

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Everything you say about parallel 5ths sounds cultural to me - perhaps we have different understandings of the term 'culture'!

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto -- "there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences...." Sure, but I don't have a lot of faith in the value of those studies. I don't think that a typical western audience hears "Minor Swing" (Django Reinhardt), "Minor Mystery" (Barney Kessel), or "Hava Nagila" as being sad songs. IIRC the most commonly heard recording of Django playing "Minor Swing" ends with cheers, and "Hava Nagila" certainly is accompanied by cheers often enough. I just don't see minor <=> sad as a useful generalization.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    Other than that, I generally agree with your notion that there are many types of statements under the rubric of music theory.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto I agree with topomorto. Here’s the back up by this research : URL

    – user506602
    6 hours ago
















4














I would say that music theory spans a range of 'types' of statements, from almost totally objective to quite subjective...



You've got elements that are pretty much scientific facts, such as what the harmonic series is, or how the physics of instruments works, or how the mechanics of the ear work.



Then you've got a level of stuff that is technically 'subjective', yet that has been somewhat scientifically observed (through formal experiments) to be reasonably common human experience - things like how dissonance is perceived, and how pitch relates to frequency.



Then there are things that seem very common (perception of a 'tonic'), (perception of tension and resolution) the specifics of which still seem to vary a little with musical culture. Somewhere around this level are some of the more obvious explicitly 'emotional' rules too - at least the most common things like people perceiving the minor as (massive simplification coming up...) 'sad'.



There are then the more culturally-specific things - things like the oft-quoted "no parallel fifths". These could be seen as opinions, or alternatively, as somewhat objective advice on how to write in a particular style based on the characteristics of a corpus of past works. In any case, these stylistic choices seem to be down to preferences - we're well away from the purely objective by this point.



Of course at some level, reaction to music becomes so personal that it can't be codified as any kind of theory. Sometimes it might seem unintuitive to me that not all others feel the same powerful reactions to certain chord motions and timbres that I do; if they did, some of my favourite music would be a lot more popular!



After so many years of music history, including a few generations now where we've had a lot of cross-pollination of genres around the globe, perhaps it's impossible to place perception of some phenomena precisely on the subjective/objective axis. I'm sure some will disagree with my assessments here!



Some might say that the more scientific stuff belongs in acoustics, or psychology. I understand the point, but I think if you chip away too much at each end (moving the scientific stuff into 'science', and the subjective stuff into 'opinion') a lot of music theory disappears. I prefer the fatter view!






share|improve this answer























  • 2





    @Dom Of course people who study music actively can see more subtlety and detail than simply "minor is sad" - but there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences, at least within those exposed to Western music.

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Everything you say about parallel 5ths sounds cultural to me - perhaps we have different understandings of the term 'culture'!

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto -- "there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences...." Sure, but I don't have a lot of faith in the value of those studies. I don't think that a typical western audience hears "Minor Swing" (Django Reinhardt), "Minor Mystery" (Barney Kessel), or "Hava Nagila" as being sad songs. IIRC the most commonly heard recording of Django playing "Minor Swing" ends with cheers, and "Hava Nagila" certainly is accompanied by cheers often enough. I just don't see minor <=> sad as a useful generalization.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    Other than that, I generally agree with your notion that there are many types of statements under the rubric of music theory.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto I agree with topomorto. Here’s the back up by this research : URL

    – user506602
    6 hours ago














4












4








4







I would say that music theory spans a range of 'types' of statements, from almost totally objective to quite subjective...



You've got elements that are pretty much scientific facts, such as what the harmonic series is, or how the physics of instruments works, or how the mechanics of the ear work.



Then you've got a level of stuff that is technically 'subjective', yet that has been somewhat scientifically observed (through formal experiments) to be reasonably common human experience - things like how dissonance is perceived, and how pitch relates to frequency.



Then there are things that seem very common (perception of a 'tonic'), (perception of tension and resolution) the specifics of which still seem to vary a little with musical culture. Somewhere around this level are some of the more obvious explicitly 'emotional' rules too - at least the most common things like people perceiving the minor as (massive simplification coming up...) 'sad'.



There are then the more culturally-specific things - things like the oft-quoted "no parallel fifths". These could be seen as opinions, or alternatively, as somewhat objective advice on how to write in a particular style based on the characteristics of a corpus of past works. In any case, these stylistic choices seem to be down to preferences - we're well away from the purely objective by this point.



Of course at some level, reaction to music becomes so personal that it can't be codified as any kind of theory. Sometimes it might seem unintuitive to me that not all others feel the same powerful reactions to certain chord motions and timbres that I do; if they did, some of my favourite music would be a lot more popular!



After so many years of music history, including a few generations now where we've had a lot of cross-pollination of genres around the globe, perhaps it's impossible to place perception of some phenomena precisely on the subjective/objective axis. I'm sure some will disagree with my assessments here!



Some might say that the more scientific stuff belongs in acoustics, or psychology. I understand the point, but I think if you chip away too much at each end (moving the scientific stuff into 'science', and the subjective stuff into 'opinion') a lot of music theory disappears. I prefer the fatter view!






share|improve this answer















I would say that music theory spans a range of 'types' of statements, from almost totally objective to quite subjective...



You've got elements that are pretty much scientific facts, such as what the harmonic series is, or how the physics of instruments works, or how the mechanics of the ear work.



Then you've got a level of stuff that is technically 'subjective', yet that has been somewhat scientifically observed (through formal experiments) to be reasonably common human experience - things like how dissonance is perceived, and how pitch relates to frequency.



Then there are things that seem very common (perception of a 'tonic'), (perception of tension and resolution) the specifics of which still seem to vary a little with musical culture. Somewhere around this level are some of the more obvious explicitly 'emotional' rules too - at least the most common things like people perceiving the minor as (massive simplification coming up...) 'sad'.



There are then the more culturally-specific things - things like the oft-quoted "no parallel fifths". These could be seen as opinions, or alternatively, as somewhat objective advice on how to write in a particular style based on the characteristics of a corpus of past works. In any case, these stylistic choices seem to be down to preferences - we're well away from the purely objective by this point.



Of course at some level, reaction to music becomes so personal that it can't be codified as any kind of theory. Sometimes it might seem unintuitive to me that not all others feel the same powerful reactions to certain chord motions and timbres that I do; if they did, some of my favourite music would be a lot more popular!



After so many years of music history, including a few generations now where we've had a lot of cross-pollination of genres around the globe, perhaps it's impossible to place perception of some phenomena precisely on the subjective/objective axis. I'm sure some will disagree with my assessments here!



Some might say that the more scientific stuff belongs in acoustics, or psychology. I understand the point, but I think if you chip away too much at each end (moving the scientific stuff into 'science', and the subjective stuff into 'opinion') a lot of music theory disappears. I prefer the fatter view!







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 5 hours ago

























answered 7 hours ago









topo mortotopo morto

32.7k2 gold badges53 silver badges125 bronze badges




32.7k2 gold badges53 silver badges125 bronze badges











  • 2





    @Dom Of course people who study music actively can see more subtlety and detail than simply "minor is sad" - but there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences, at least within those exposed to Western music.

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Everything you say about parallel 5ths sounds cultural to me - perhaps we have different understandings of the term 'culture'!

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto -- "there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences...." Sure, but I don't have a lot of faith in the value of those studies. I don't think that a typical western audience hears "Minor Swing" (Django Reinhardt), "Minor Mystery" (Barney Kessel), or "Hava Nagila" as being sad songs. IIRC the most commonly heard recording of Django playing "Minor Swing" ends with cheers, and "Hava Nagila" certainly is accompanied by cheers often enough. I just don't see minor <=> sad as a useful generalization.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    Other than that, I generally agree with your notion that there are many types of statements under the rubric of music theory.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto I agree with topomorto. Here’s the back up by this research : URL

    – user506602
    6 hours ago














  • 2





    @Dom Of course people who study music actively can see more subtlety and detail than simply "minor is sad" - but there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences, at least within those exposed to Western music.

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago








  • 2





    Everything you say about parallel 5ths sounds cultural to me - perhaps we have different understandings of the term 'culture'!

    – topo morto
    7 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto -- "there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences...." Sure, but I don't have a lot of faith in the value of those studies. I don't think that a typical western audience hears "Minor Swing" (Django Reinhardt), "Minor Mystery" (Barney Kessel), or "Hava Nagila" as being sad songs. IIRC the most commonly heard recording of Django playing "Minor Swing" ends with cheers, and "Hava Nagila" certainly is accompanied by cheers often enough. I just don't see minor <=> sad as a useful generalization.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    Other than that, I generally agree with your notion that there are many types of statements under the rubric of music theory.

    – David Bowling
    6 hours ago






  • 2





    @topomorto I agree with topomorto. Here’s the back up by this research : URL

    – user506602
    6 hours ago








2




2





@Dom Of course people who study music actively can see more subtlety and detail than simply "minor is sad" - but there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences, at least within those exposed to Western music.

– topo morto
7 hours ago







@Dom Of course people who study music actively can see more subtlety and detail than simply "minor is sad" - but there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences, at least within those exposed to Western music.

– topo morto
7 hours ago






2




2





Everything you say about parallel 5ths sounds cultural to me - perhaps we have different understandings of the term 'culture'!

– topo morto
7 hours ago





Everything you say about parallel 5ths sounds cultural to me - perhaps we have different understandings of the term 'culture'!

– topo morto
7 hours ago




2




2





@topomorto -- "there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences...." Sure, but I don't have a lot of faith in the value of those studies. I don't think that a typical western audience hears "Minor Swing" (Django Reinhardt), "Minor Mystery" (Barney Kessel), or "Hava Nagila" as being sad songs. IIRC the most commonly heard recording of Django playing "Minor Swing" ends with cheers, and "Hava Nagila" certainly is accompanied by cheers often enough. I just don't see minor <=> sad as a useful generalization.

– David Bowling
6 hours ago





@topomorto -- "there are plenty of studies that confirm that it's a fair generalisation of common experience for audiences...." Sure, but I don't have a lot of faith in the value of those studies. I don't think that a typical western audience hears "Minor Swing" (Django Reinhardt), "Minor Mystery" (Barney Kessel), or "Hava Nagila" as being sad songs. IIRC the most commonly heard recording of Django playing "Minor Swing" ends with cheers, and "Hava Nagila" certainly is accompanied by cheers often enough. I just don't see minor <=> sad as a useful generalization.

– David Bowling
6 hours ago




2




2





Other than that, I generally agree with your notion that there are many types of statements under the rubric of music theory.

– David Bowling
6 hours ago





Other than that, I generally agree with your notion that there are many types of statements under the rubric of music theory.

– David Bowling
6 hours ago




2




2





@topomorto I agree with topomorto. Here’s the back up by this research : URL

– user506602
6 hours ago





@topomorto I agree with topomorto. Here’s the back up by this research : URL

– user506602
6 hours ago













6















...the leading tone wants to rise to the root...




Basic theory says things like...




  • the leading tone is a half step below the tonic

  • in a proper cadence the leading tone moves to the tonic, or if in a inner voice it may move down to the dominant.


...of course that isn't a complete theoretical overview of the leading tone.



A claim that theory simply says 'the leading tone moves to the tonic' is incomplete, and as a description of actual musical art it complete nonsense.



I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws.




...saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo?




Again, the specifics of wording matter, and it's easy to misstate things. 'Certain emotions' is not the same meaning as 'emotions.' Obviously intervals and all other musical devices can elicit emotions. The problem is trying to make certain claims like minor thirds are sad or diminished fifths are scary. Statements like that are too broad and won't withstand any scrutiny.



Good theory texts will describe expressive possibilities - not one to one formulas - and provide real musical excerpts to illustrate the ideas.



I think you want to distinguish between what music IS - an art - and music theory which is a way to describe music with some objectivity.



Art does whatever it wants. The theoreticians try to make a theory to describe what the art did.



Keep in mind it's a theory about art not a scientific theory. Acoustics is science and not the same as music theory. Confusing the two is another common mistake.




Music Theory: Facts or Hierarchy of Opinions?




Neither. I would say it's more like qualified statements about common musical practices using established terminology.





EDIT



Just adding something about rules after reading @topo-morto's answer.



You often hear "there are not rules in music." Well... there are, and there aren't. We need to distinguish music theory from specific style practices and pedagogy.



No parallel fifths is a good example to use.



These is such a rule... in Fux's species counterpoint. That's pedagogy.



You will see parallel fifth scrupulously avoided in most "classical" music... except in musettes, fanfares, and other specific cases. It's called common practice. On the other hand, in heavy metal parallel fifths are practically a requirement! That style.



Two voices moving in parallel fifth differ only in one voice being an exact transposition of the other. There is no difference in melodic contour between the two voice. Pitch-wise the two voice exhibit very little independence. That's an objective description, non-specific about style, is neither prescription nor proscription, and makes no aesthetic evaluation. That's music theory.



And just as an aside, I think the only thing acoustics and math will tell us about parallel fifths is that if you use an instrument with fixed tuning, it is mathematically impossible to play two absolutely perfect, consecutive fifths.






share|improve this answer























  • 3





    "I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws." -- I think you've hit the nail on the head here; you can only make sense of a system of thought by understanding the system as a whole, on its own terms.

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago











  • Thank you for your answer. To clarify, when I said, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," I did not intend to state that it is a universal rule of music theory, but more that when used in certain circumstances it has valid explanatory power. On the other hand, I am referencing the connection between interval and emotion because of Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago


















6















...the leading tone wants to rise to the root...




Basic theory says things like...




  • the leading tone is a half step below the tonic

  • in a proper cadence the leading tone moves to the tonic, or if in a inner voice it may move down to the dominant.


...of course that isn't a complete theoretical overview of the leading tone.



A claim that theory simply says 'the leading tone moves to the tonic' is incomplete, and as a description of actual musical art it complete nonsense.



I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws.




...saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo?




Again, the specifics of wording matter, and it's easy to misstate things. 'Certain emotions' is not the same meaning as 'emotions.' Obviously intervals and all other musical devices can elicit emotions. The problem is trying to make certain claims like minor thirds are sad or diminished fifths are scary. Statements like that are too broad and won't withstand any scrutiny.



Good theory texts will describe expressive possibilities - not one to one formulas - and provide real musical excerpts to illustrate the ideas.



I think you want to distinguish between what music IS - an art - and music theory which is a way to describe music with some objectivity.



Art does whatever it wants. The theoreticians try to make a theory to describe what the art did.



Keep in mind it's a theory about art not a scientific theory. Acoustics is science and not the same as music theory. Confusing the two is another common mistake.




Music Theory: Facts or Hierarchy of Opinions?




Neither. I would say it's more like qualified statements about common musical practices using established terminology.





EDIT



Just adding something about rules after reading @topo-morto's answer.



You often hear "there are not rules in music." Well... there are, and there aren't. We need to distinguish music theory from specific style practices and pedagogy.



No parallel fifths is a good example to use.



These is such a rule... in Fux's species counterpoint. That's pedagogy.



You will see parallel fifth scrupulously avoided in most "classical" music... except in musettes, fanfares, and other specific cases. It's called common practice. On the other hand, in heavy metal parallel fifths are practically a requirement! That style.



Two voices moving in parallel fifth differ only in one voice being an exact transposition of the other. There is no difference in melodic contour between the two voice. Pitch-wise the two voice exhibit very little independence. That's an objective description, non-specific about style, is neither prescription nor proscription, and makes no aesthetic evaluation. That's music theory.



And just as an aside, I think the only thing acoustics and math will tell us about parallel fifths is that if you use an instrument with fixed tuning, it is mathematically impossible to play two absolutely perfect, consecutive fifths.






share|improve this answer























  • 3





    "I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws." -- I think you've hit the nail on the head here; you can only make sense of a system of thought by understanding the system as a whole, on its own terms.

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago











  • Thank you for your answer. To clarify, when I said, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," I did not intend to state that it is a universal rule of music theory, but more that when used in certain circumstances it has valid explanatory power. On the other hand, I am referencing the connection between interval and emotion because of Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago
















6












6








6








...the leading tone wants to rise to the root...




Basic theory says things like...




  • the leading tone is a half step below the tonic

  • in a proper cadence the leading tone moves to the tonic, or if in a inner voice it may move down to the dominant.


...of course that isn't a complete theoretical overview of the leading tone.



A claim that theory simply says 'the leading tone moves to the tonic' is incomplete, and as a description of actual musical art it complete nonsense.



I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws.




...saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo?




Again, the specifics of wording matter, and it's easy to misstate things. 'Certain emotions' is not the same meaning as 'emotions.' Obviously intervals and all other musical devices can elicit emotions. The problem is trying to make certain claims like minor thirds are sad or diminished fifths are scary. Statements like that are too broad and won't withstand any scrutiny.



Good theory texts will describe expressive possibilities - not one to one formulas - and provide real musical excerpts to illustrate the ideas.



I think you want to distinguish between what music IS - an art - and music theory which is a way to describe music with some objectivity.



Art does whatever it wants. The theoreticians try to make a theory to describe what the art did.



Keep in mind it's a theory about art not a scientific theory. Acoustics is science and not the same as music theory. Confusing the two is another common mistake.




Music Theory: Facts or Hierarchy of Opinions?




Neither. I would say it's more like qualified statements about common musical practices using established terminology.





EDIT



Just adding something about rules after reading @topo-morto's answer.



You often hear "there are not rules in music." Well... there are, and there aren't. We need to distinguish music theory from specific style practices and pedagogy.



No parallel fifths is a good example to use.



These is such a rule... in Fux's species counterpoint. That's pedagogy.



You will see parallel fifth scrupulously avoided in most "classical" music... except in musettes, fanfares, and other specific cases. It's called common practice. On the other hand, in heavy metal parallel fifths are practically a requirement! That style.



Two voices moving in parallel fifth differ only in one voice being an exact transposition of the other. There is no difference in melodic contour between the two voice. Pitch-wise the two voice exhibit very little independence. That's an objective description, non-specific about style, is neither prescription nor proscription, and makes no aesthetic evaluation. That's music theory.



And just as an aside, I think the only thing acoustics and math will tell us about parallel fifths is that if you use an instrument with fixed tuning, it is mathematically impossible to play two absolutely perfect, consecutive fifths.






share|improve this answer
















...the leading tone wants to rise to the root...




Basic theory says things like...




  • the leading tone is a half step below the tonic

  • in a proper cadence the leading tone moves to the tonic, or if in a inner voice it may move down to the dominant.


...of course that isn't a complete theoretical overview of the leading tone.



A claim that theory simply says 'the leading tone moves to the tonic' is incomplete, and as a description of actual musical art it complete nonsense.



I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws.




...saying that certain intervals elicit certain emotions is taboo?




Again, the specifics of wording matter, and it's easy to misstate things. 'Certain emotions' is not the same meaning as 'emotions.' Obviously intervals and all other musical devices can elicit emotions. The problem is trying to make certain claims like minor thirds are sad or diminished fifths are scary. Statements like that are too broad and won't withstand any scrutiny.



Good theory texts will describe expressive possibilities - not one to one formulas - and provide real musical excerpts to illustrate the ideas.



I think you want to distinguish between what music IS - an art - and music theory which is a way to describe music with some objectivity.



Art does whatever it wants. The theoreticians try to make a theory to describe what the art did.



Keep in mind it's a theory about art not a scientific theory. Acoustics is science and not the same as music theory. Confusing the two is another common mistake.




Music Theory: Facts or Hierarchy of Opinions?




Neither. I would say it's more like qualified statements about common musical practices using established terminology.





EDIT



Just adding something about rules after reading @topo-morto's answer.



You often hear "there are not rules in music." Well... there are, and there aren't. We need to distinguish music theory from specific style practices and pedagogy.



No parallel fifths is a good example to use.



These is such a rule... in Fux's species counterpoint. That's pedagogy.



You will see parallel fifth scrupulously avoided in most "classical" music... except in musettes, fanfares, and other specific cases. It's called common practice. On the other hand, in heavy metal parallel fifths are practically a requirement! That style.



Two voices moving in parallel fifth differ only in one voice being an exact transposition of the other. There is no difference in melodic contour between the two voice. Pitch-wise the two voice exhibit very little independence. That's an objective description, non-specific about style, is neither prescription nor proscription, and makes no aesthetic evaluation. That's music theory.



And just as an aside, I think the only thing acoustics and math will tell us about parallel fifths is that if you use an instrument with fixed tuning, it is mathematically impossible to play two absolutely perfect, consecutive fifths.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 6 hours ago

























answered 8 hours ago









Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

17.1k12 silver badges57 bronze badges




17.1k12 silver badges57 bronze badges











  • 3





    "I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws." -- I think you've hit the nail on the head here; you can only make sense of a system of thought by understanding the system as a whole, on its own terms.

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago











  • Thank you for your answer. To clarify, when I said, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," I did not intend to state that it is a universal rule of music theory, but more that when used in certain circumstances it has valid explanatory power. On the other hand, I am referencing the connection between interval and emotion because of Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago
















  • 3





    "I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws." -- I think you've hit the nail on the head here; you can only make sense of a system of thought by understanding the system as a whole, on its own terms.

    – David Bowling
    7 hours ago











  • Thank you for your answer. To clarify, when I said, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," I did not intend to state that it is a universal rule of music theory, but more that when used in certain circumstances it has valid explanatory power. On the other hand, I am referencing the connection between interval and emotion because of Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation.

    – Phoenix Morrison
    7 hours ago










3




3





"I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws." -- I think you've hit the nail on the head here; you can only make sense of a system of thought by understanding the system as a whole, on its own terms.

– David Bowling
7 hours ago





"I think a lot of misunderstanding of music theory come from taking incomplete theory ideas and then misstating them as laws." -- I think you've hit the nail on the head here; you can only make sense of a system of thought by understanding the system as a whole, on its own terms.

– David Bowling
7 hours ago













Thank you for your answer. To clarify, when I said, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," I did not intend to state that it is a universal rule of music theory, but more that when used in certain circumstances it has valid explanatory power. On the other hand, I am referencing the connection between interval and emotion because of Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation.

– Phoenix Morrison
7 hours ago







Thank you for your answer. To clarify, when I said, "the leading tone wants to rise to the root," I did not intend to state that it is a universal rule of music theory, but more that when used in certain circumstances it has valid explanatory power. On the other hand, I am referencing the connection between interval and emotion because of Sweet Anticipation: Music and the Psychology of Expectation.

– Phoenix Morrison
7 hours ago




















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