Is it safe to remove the bottom chords of a series of garage roof trusses?Can I raise a sagging shed roof by...
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Is it safe to remove the bottom chords of a series of garage roof trusses?
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Is it safe to remove the bottom chords of a series of garage roof trusses?
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See attached picture. Looks like an 8x10 cut-out. He wants to lift cars up so he can walk under them.
Is this safe? Doesn't removing the joists affect structural integrity?
roof joists
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Lynn Baker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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|
show 6 more comments
See attached picture. Looks like an 8x10 cut-out. He wants to lift cars up so he can walk under them.
Is this safe? Doesn't removing the joists affect structural integrity?
roof joists
New contributor
Lynn Baker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
15
With no horizontal members tying across that gap it looks to me as though there would be a risk of the peak collapsing downwards as the walls bow outwards...
– brhans
Aug 19 at 22:04
8
Will you be expecting snow?
– JACK
Aug 20 at 0:07
11
He just created this future situation for himself: diy.stackexchange.com/q/94143/42053
– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago
6
I never wish to be in a car he worked in, given his total disregard for safety.
– Walker
yesterday
9
Too bad there is no "impending-disaster" tag.
– Eric Hauenstein
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
See attached picture. Looks like an 8x10 cut-out. He wants to lift cars up so he can walk under them.
Is this safe? Doesn't removing the joists affect structural integrity?
roof joists
New contributor
Lynn Baker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
See attached picture. Looks like an 8x10 cut-out. He wants to lift cars up so he can walk under them.
Is this safe? Doesn't removing the joists affect structural integrity?
roof joists
roof joists
New contributor
Lynn Baker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Lynn Baker is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 2 days ago
isherwood
57k5 gold badges68 silver badges150 bronze badges
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asked Aug 19 at 21:43
Lynn BakerLynn Baker
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Check out our Code of Conduct.
15
With no horizontal members tying across that gap it looks to me as though there would be a risk of the peak collapsing downwards as the walls bow outwards...
– brhans
Aug 19 at 22:04
8
Will you be expecting snow?
– JACK
Aug 20 at 0:07
11
He just created this future situation for himself: diy.stackexchange.com/q/94143/42053
– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago
6
I never wish to be in a car he worked in, given his total disregard for safety.
– Walker
yesterday
9
Too bad there is no "impending-disaster" tag.
– Eric Hauenstein
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
15
With no horizontal members tying across that gap it looks to me as though there would be a risk of the peak collapsing downwards as the walls bow outwards...
– brhans
Aug 19 at 22:04
8
Will you be expecting snow?
– JACK
Aug 20 at 0:07
11
He just created this future situation for himself: diy.stackexchange.com/q/94143/42053
– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago
6
I never wish to be in a car he worked in, given his total disregard for safety.
– Walker
yesterday
9
Too bad there is no "impending-disaster" tag.
– Eric Hauenstein
yesterday
15
15
With no horizontal members tying across that gap it looks to me as though there would be a risk of the peak collapsing downwards as the walls bow outwards...
– brhans
Aug 19 at 22:04
With no horizontal members tying across that gap it looks to me as though there would be a risk of the peak collapsing downwards as the walls bow outwards...
– brhans
Aug 19 at 22:04
8
8
Will you be expecting snow?
– JACK
Aug 20 at 0:07
Will you be expecting snow?
– JACK
Aug 20 at 0:07
11
11
He just created this future situation for himself: diy.stackexchange.com/q/94143/42053
– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago
He just created this future situation for himself: diy.stackexchange.com/q/94143/42053
– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago
6
6
I never wish to be in a car he worked in, given his total disregard for safety.
– Walker
yesterday
I never wish to be in a car he worked in, given his total disregard for safety.
– Walker
yesterday
9
9
Too bad there is no "impending-disaster" tag.
– Eric Hauenstein
yesterday
Too bad there is no "impending-disaster" tag.
– Eric Hauenstein
yesterday
|
show 6 more comments
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
Absolutely not safe.
Those trusses were engineered with a heavy (critical) dependency on the bottom chords, which are in tension. Removal has left them extremely vulnerable to collapse due to spreading, especially under snow loads, but also under just the load of the roof itself. The roof system is basically a hinge now.
To get a good mental image, picture yourself standing on an ice rink and sliding your feet outward. How far do you get before your groin starts to scream at you?
Best case scenario, that ridge slowly sags over the opening and looks ridiculous. It will push walls around with it, cracking drywall and binding windows. Worst case, full collapse. Death. Destruction. Worst of all, humiliation.
Repair will require new lumber installed with a suitably fastening system, such as construction adhesive and through-bolts. It may be necessary to winch the walls back into alignment first if sagging has already begun.
3
I'm not sure I would describe that mental image as "good"!
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
1
There are a number of ways the damage could be repaired without lumber - but repaired it must be.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
8
Yes, but that probably goes beyond the DIY capabilities of anyone who would do this to their roof system. Also, any replacement for lumber must be laterally stabilized as those bottom chords were by the "rat run".
– isherwood
2 days ago
7
+1 for humiliation
– Dennis Williamson
2 days ago
1
@DennisWilliamson It's reminiscent of "Or worse, expelled"
– Engineer Toast
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
With no bracing above, you might want to check the out side walls - they are probably already spreading. Once they start moving the stabilization and repair can cost many thousands if the roof stays in place, tens of thousands if it comes down.
There are ways to mitigate the damage done, but it needs to be done now before the walls spread, the rafters move and the roof leaks if not collapses. Yes I have seen bonehead DIY hacks like this.
Steel plates in the outside walls with cables to pull the walls back together, repair the damage to the rafters, new bracing with some engineered cables added.
I would suggest getting the bracing and cable system installed now or it will cost much more than the lift and the loss of use if the roof comes down.
3
One thought, is that it may be possible to replace the joists with much beefier joists higher up. That would allow some of the additional headroom the owner wants, without compromising the structural integrity of the building.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
2
It may, but we have no way of knowing what the loads on those truss members are, and 2x4 top chords probably aren't adequate. You'd need to sister heavier boards on the complete A-frame.
– isherwood
2 days ago
1
That’s the bracing I am talking about but depending on how high the car protrudes into the space will dictate if engineered cable supports are needed. (If the car sticks more than a foot or possibly 2 it will probably require an engineers stamp for whatever is done. Wish I could say I haven’t seen this kind of hack before.
– Ed Beal
2 days ago
add a comment |
The triangle is an extremely stable form of architecture precisely because it has three sides. You remove one side, and you have one of the least stable forms of architecture on account that two members connected at a point can be affected by torque, which is by definition a force multiplier. If you want to play around with it to get a sense, try gluing two Popsicle sticks and three Popsicle sticks like the design in the picture above.
Any force directed downward will because of the elasticity of the wood create force outwards. If the members were steel, there would be substantially less deformation resulting in less outward force, but lumber is relatively flexible.
Now, it should be noted that some of the horizontal members are still in place, as many as half, and those runs will make it unlikely the structure will collapse under normal conditions, however, heavy winds or heavy snowfall, as mentioned in other comments, likely to create outward stresses in the middle section of the structure. The exact details of what will happen will largely be a matter of detail. To some extent, existing construction code generally overengineers a solution to ensure that minor failure will not result in human harm.
It is possible to create both the space needed to elevate the car, and have a structurally sound garage given the picture. For instance, additional chords can be installed low enough to recreate trusses, but high enough to accommodate a raised vehicle. There are a number of truss styles that do not use a horizontal bottom chord, the scissor truss for instance. And using steel as a construction material can help to redirect the tensions through materials more capable of absorbing the load. Lastly, the walls themselves can be modified. It was typical of cathedrals to buttress on the exterior, the wall to handle high-arching ceilings, for instance.
Construction is often a question of engineering as much as it is design, and if safety is a concern, such as it might be in this photo, consulting a structural engineer would be the right thing to do. Structural design is their expertise, which would be my recommendation.
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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1
My intuition (by no means a calculation), would say that in this picture, several strategies would strengthen the roof. Running some sistered members across the cut joists would obviously create rectangles that would reinforce the wall from deforming. Purlins along the rafters would also work, or tying together those inside chords from the front to back parallel to the wall would also help. It's really a question of how sure one wants to be. Horizontal members higher up are a must. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_roof_truss#/media/…
– J D
2 days ago
5
@supercat If you want a roof with a hole, you design a roof with a hole. You don't first design a roof without a hole, then cut a hole in it, and then try to fix up the resulting mess.
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
@supercat This is the sort of timber roof design still standing after more than 600 years after it was built: greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Presentations/…
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
Some good information in this answer, and some bad. It is absolutely nothing to do with timber vs steel; it is to do with connections, and also member size.
– AndyT
yesterday
1
Yes, it's foolish to speculate at repairs that meet the intent of the destructor without doing the math on the remaining truss members. No repair can succeed unless the components the repair is applied to are up to the task. Knowing what I do about modern engineered trusses, there's little room for experimentation.
– isherwood
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
As pictured - very bad idea.
It may work IF the roof is re-engineered to carry a lot more of the stress across the top and bottom of the cutout. That means a much beefier horizontal beam on all four sides of his hole AND a rework of the roof by re-trussing the entire structure.
Some examples:
This one is a Scissor Truss, and also wears the more general name "church truss" or "nave truss" Note some of these have thinner tie rods across the middle exactly where the bottom chord would be - those aren't suitable.

A little ornate for a workshop, but you can see how the load is being brought down to the walls with inner buttressing.
This one is called a Coffer Truss and as pictured would work perfectly. However the thickness of the rafters (top cords) would have to be increased several-fold to cope with the extra stresses.
This would work too - depending on how much height there is at the top of the wall.
Last option is to completely reframe the roof with steel trusses, and do away with the wooden ones. Properly enginerded steel will have more strength than the wooden ones while allowing the open space required.
Any way - whatever creative handyman did this has made a difficult job into an utter nightmare of a job. It would have been less work to remove the roof and then re-truss leaving the bottom chords in place to support the walls until the new roof framing is on.
Frankly, it would probably have been cheaper to build a new garage rather than monster the existing one and now have to repair it.
Also consider any insurance claim will be harder to win, based on the level of care exhibited here. I'd bet any insurance claim for snow damage or storm damage would be rejected out of hand. If this is used for a business, any claim for a customer car damaged by this collapse would be rejected as "failure to use due care"
You need to speak with a structural engineer immediately in person and ideally on-site. I am not a structural engineer.
add a comment |
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Absolutely not safe.
Those trusses were engineered with a heavy (critical) dependency on the bottom chords, which are in tension. Removal has left them extremely vulnerable to collapse due to spreading, especially under snow loads, but also under just the load of the roof itself. The roof system is basically a hinge now.
To get a good mental image, picture yourself standing on an ice rink and sliding your feet outward. How far do you get before your groin starts to scream at you?
Best case scenario, that ridge slowly sags over the opening and looks ridiculous. It will push walls around with it, cracking drywall and binding windows. Worst case, full collapse. Death. Destruction. Worst of all, humiliation.
Repair will require new lumber installed with a suitably fastening system, such as construction adhesive and through-bolts. It may be necessary to winch the walls back into alignment first if sagging has already begun.
3
I'm not sure I would describe that mental image as "good"!
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
1
There are a number of ways the damage could be repaired without lumber - but repaired it must be.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
8
Yes, but that probably goes beyond the DIY capabilities of anyone who would do this to their roof system. Also, any replacement for lumber must be laterally stabilized as those bottom chords were by the "rat run".
– isherwood
2 days ago
7
+1 for humiliation
– Dennis Williamson
2 days ago
1
@DennisWilliamson It's reminiscent of "Or worse, expelled"
– Engineer Toast
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Absolutely not safe.
Those trusses were engineered with a heavy (critical) dependency on the bottom chords, which are in tension. Removal has left them extremely vulnerable to collapse due to spreading, especially under snow loads, but also under just the load of the roof itself. The roof system is basically a hinge now.
To get a good mental image, picture yourself standing on an ice rink and sliding your feet outward. How far do you get before your groin starts to scream at you?
Best case scenario, that ridge slowly sags over the opening and looks ridiculous. It will push walls around with it, cracking drywall and binding windows. Worst case, full collapse. Death. Destruction. Worst of all, humiliation.
Repair will require new lumber installed with a suitably fastening system, such as construction adhesive and through-bolts. It may be necessary to winch the walls back into alignment first if sagging has already begun.
3
I'm not sure I would describe that mental image as "good"!
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
1
There are a number of ways the damage could be repaired without lumber - but repaired it must be.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
8
Yes, but that probably goes beyond the DIY capabilities of anyone who would do this to their roof system. Also, any replacement for lumber must be laterally stabilized as those bottom chords were by the "rat run".
– isherwood
2 days ago
7
+1 for humiliation
– Dennis Williamson
2 days ago
1
@DennisWilliamson It's reminiscent of "Or worse, expelled"
– Engineer Toast
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Absolutely not safe.
Those trusses were engineered with a heavy (critical) dependency on the bottom chords, which are in tension. Removal has left them extremely vulnerable to collapse due to spreading, especially under snow loads, but also under just the load of the roof itself. The roof system is basically a hinge now.
To get a good mental image, picture yourself standing on an ice rink and sliding your feet outward. How far do you get before your groin starts to scream at you?
Best case scenario, that ridge slowly sags over the opening and looks ridiculous. It will push walls around with it, cracking drywall and binding windows. Worst case, full collapse. Death. Destruction. Worst of all, humiliation.
Repair will require new lumber installed with a suitably fastening system, such as construction adhesive and through-bolts. It may be necessary to winch the walls back into alignment first if sagging has already begun.
Absolutely not safe.
Those trusses were engineered with a heavy (critical) dependency on the bottom chords, which are in tension. Removal has left them extremely vulnerable to collapse due to spreading, especially under snow loads, but also under just the load of the roof itself. The roof system is basically a hinge now.
To get a good mental image, picture yourself standing on an ice rink and sliding your feet outward. How far do you get before your groin starts to scream at you?
Best case scenario, that ridge slowly sags over the opening and looks ridiculous. It will push walls around with it, cracking drywall and binding windows. Worst case, full collapse. Death. Destruction. Worst of all, humiliation.
Repair will require new lumber installed with a suitably fastening system, such as construction adhesive and through-bolts. It may be necessary to winch the walls back into alignment first if sagging has already begun.
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago
isherwoodisherwood
57k5 gold badges68 silver badges150 bronze badges
57k5 gold badges68 silver badges150 bronze badges
3
I'm not sure I would describe that mental image as "good"!
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
1
There are a number of ways the damage could be repaired without lumber - but repaired it must be.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
8
Yes, but that probably goes beyond the DIY capabilities of anyone who would do this to their roof system. Also, any replacement for lumber must be laterally stabilized as those bottom chords were by the "rat run".
– isherwood
2 days ago
7
+1 for humiliation
– Dennis Williamson
2 days ago
1
@DennisWilliamson It's reminiscent of "Or worse, expelled"
– Engineer Toast
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
3
I'm not sure I would describe that mental image as "good"!
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
1
There are a number of ways the damage could be repaired without lumber - but repaired it must be.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
8
Yes, but that probably goes beyond the DIY capabilities of anyone who would do this to their roof system. Also, any replacement for lumber must be laterally stabilized as those bottom chords were by the "rat run".
– isherwood
2 days ago
7
+1 for humiliation
– Dennis Williamson
2 days ago
1
@DennisWilliamson It's reminiscent of "Or worse, expelled"
– Engineer Toast
7 hours ago
3
3
I'm not sure I would describe that mental image as "good"!
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
I'm not sure I would describe that mental image as "good"!
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
1
1
There are a number of ways the damage could be repaired without lumber - but repaired it must be.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
There are a number of ways the damage could be repaired without lumber - but repaired it must be.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
8
8
Yes, but that probably goes beyond the DIY capabilities of anyone who would do this to their roof system. Also, any replacement for lumber must be laterally stabilized as those bottom chords were by the "rat run".
– isherwood
2 days ago
Yes, but that probably goes beyond the DIY capabilities of anyone who would do this to their roof system. Also, any replacement for lumber must be laterally stabilized as those bottom chords were by the "rat run".
– isherwood
2 days ago
7
7
+1 for humiliation
– Dennis Williamson
2 days ago
+1 for humiliation
– Dennis Williamson
2 days ago
1
1
@DennisWilliamson It's reminiscent of "Or worse, expelled"
– Engineer Toast
7 hours ago
@DennisWilliamson It's reminiscent of "Or worse, expelled"
– Engineer Toast
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
With no bracing above, you might want to check the out side walls - they are probably already spreading. Once they start moving the stabilization and repair can cost many thousands if the roof stays in place, tens of thousands if it comes down.
There are ways to mitigate the damage done, but it needs to be done now before the walls spread, the rafters move and the roof leaks if not collapses. Yes I have seen bonehead DIY hacks like this.
Steel plates in the outside walls with cables to pull the walls back together, repair the damage to the rafters, new bracing with some engineered cables added.
I would suggest getting the bracing and cable system installed now or it will cost much more than the lift and the loss of use if the roof comes down.
3
One thought, is that it may be possible to replace the joists with much beefier joists higher up. That would allow some of the additional headroom the owner wants, without compromising the structural integrity of the building.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
2
It may, but we have no way of knowing what the loads on those truss members are, and 2x4 top chords probably aren't adequate. You'd need to sister heavier boards on the complete A-frame.
– isherwood
2 days ago
1
That’s the bracing I am talking about but depending on how high the car protrudes into the space will dictate if engineered cable supports are needed. (If the car sticks more than a foot or possibly 2 it will probably require an engineers stamp for whatever is done. Wish I could say I haven’t seen this kind of hack before.
– Ed Beal
2 days ago
add a comment |
With no bracing above, you might want to check the out side walls - they are probably already spreading. Once they start moving the stabilization and repair can cost many thousands if the roof stays in place, tens of thousands if it comes down.
There are ways to mitigate the damage done, but it needs to be done now before the walls spread, the rafters move and the roof leaks if not collapses. Yes I have seen bonehead DIY hacks like this.
Steel plates in the outside walls with cables to pull the walls back together, repair the damage to the rafters, new bracing with some engineered cables added.
I would suggest getting the bracing and cable system installed now or it will cost much more than the lift and the loss of use if the roof comes down.
3
One thought, is that it may be possible to replace the joists with much beefier joists higher up. That would allow some of the additional headroom the owner wants, without compromising the structural integrity of the building.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
2
It may, but we have no way of knowing what the loads on those truss members are, and 2x4 top chords probably aren't adequate. You'd need to sister heavier boards on the complete A-frame.
– isherwood
2 days ago
1
That’s the bracing I am talking about but depending on how high the car protrudes into the space will dictate if engineered cable supports are needed. (If the car sticks more than a foot or possibly 2 it will probably require an engineers stamp for whatever is done. Wish I could say I haven’t seen this kind of hack before.
– Ed Beal
2 days ago
add a comment |
With no bracing above, you might want to check the out side walls - they are probably already spreading. Once they start moving the stabilization and repair can cost many thousands if the roof stays in place, tens of thousands if it comes down.
There are ways to mitigate the damage done, but it needs to be done now before the walls spread, the rafters move and the roof leaks if not collapses. Yes I have seen bonehead DIY hacks like this.
Steel plates in the outside walls with cables to pull the walls back together, repair the damage to the rafters, new bracing with some engineered cables added.
I would suggest getting the bracing and cable system installed now or it will cost much more than the lift and the loss of use if the roof comes down.
With no bracing above, you might want to check the out side walls - they are probably already spreading. Once they start moving the stabilization and repair can cost many thousands if the roof stays in place, tens of thousands if it comes down.
There are ways to mitigate the damage done, but it needs to be done now before the walls spread, the rafters move and the roof leaks if not collapses. Yes I have seen bonehead DIY hacks like this.
Steel plates in the outside walls with cables to pull the walls back together, repair the damage to the rafters, new bracing with some engineered cables added.
I would suggest getting the bracing and cable system installed now or it will cost much more than the lift and the loss of use if the roof comes down.
edited 9 hours ago
manassehkatz
16.7k1 gold badge24 silver badges53 bronze badges
16.7k1 gold badge24 silver badges53 bronze badges
answered 2 days ago
Ed BealEd Beal
38.6k1 gold badge26 silver badges56 bronze badges
38.6k1 gold badge26 silver badges56 bronze badges
3
One thought, is that it may be possible to replace the joists with much beefier joists higher up. That would allow some of the additional headroom the owner wants, without compromising the structural integrity of the building.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
2
It may, but we have no way of knowing what the loads on those truss members are, and 2x4 top chords probably aren't adequate. You'd need to sister heavier boards on the complete A-frame.
– isherwood
2 days ago
1
That’s the bracing I am talking about but depending on how high the car protrudes into the space will dictate if engineered cable supports are needed. (If the car sticks more than a foot or possibly 2 it will probably require an engineers stamp for whatever is done. Wish I could say I haven’t seen this kind of hack before.
– Ed Beal
2 days ago
add a comment |
3
One thought, is that it may be possible to replace the joists with much beefier joists higher up. That would allow some of the additional headroom the owner wants, without compromising the structural integrity of the building.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
2
It may, but we have no way of knowing what the loads on those truss members are, and 2x4 top chords probably aren't adequate. You'd need to sister heavier boards on the complete A-frame.
– isherwood
2 days ago
1
That’s the bracing I am talking about but depending on how high the car protrudes into the space will dictate if engineered cable supports are needed. (If the car sticks more than a foot or possibly 2 it will probably require an engineers stamp for whatever is done. Wish I could say I haven’t seen this kind of hack before.
– Ed Beal
2 days ago
3
3
One thought, is that it may be possible to replace the joists with much beefier joists higher up. That would allow some of the additional headroom the owner wants, without compromising the structural integrity of the building.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
One thought, is that it may be possible to replace the joists with much beefier joists higher up. That would allow some of the additional headroom the owner wants, without compromising the structural integrity of the building.
– Martin Bonner
2 days ago
2
2
It may, but we have no way of knowing what the loads on those truss members are, and 2x4 top chords probably aren't adequate. You'd need to sister heavier boards on the complete A-frame.
– isherwood
2 days ago
It may, but we have no way of knowing what the loads on those truss members are, and 2x4 top chords probably aren't adequate. You'd need to sister heavier boards on the complete A-frame.
– isherwood
2 days ago
1
1
That’s the bracing I am talking about but depending on how high the car protrudes into the space will dictate if engineered cable supports are needed. (If the car sticks more than a foot or possibly 2 it will probably require an engineers stamp for whatever is done. Wish I could say I haven’t seen this kind of hack before.
– Ed Beal
2 days ago
That’s the bracing I am talking about but depending on how high the car protrudes into the space will dictate if engineered cable supports are needed. (If the car sticks more than a foot or possibly 2 it will probably require an engineers stamp for whatever is done. Wish I could say I haven’t seen this kind of hack before.
– Ed Beal
2 days ago
add a comment |
The triangle is an extremely stable form of architecture precisely because it has three sides. You remove one side, and you have one of the least stable forms of architecture on account that two members connected at a point can be affected by torque, which is by definition a force multiplier. If you want to play around with it to get a sense, try gluing two Popsicle sticks and three Popsicle sticks like the design in the picture above.
Any force directed downward will because of the elasticity of the wood create force outwards. If the members were steel, there would be substantially less deformation resulting in less outward force, but lumber is relatively flexible.
Now, it should be noted that some of the horizontal members are still in place, as many as half, and those runs will make it unlikely the structure will collapse under normal conditions, however, heavy winds or heavy snowfall, as mentioned in other comments, likely to create outward stresses in the middle section of the structure. The exact details of what will happen will largely be a matter of detail. To some extent, existing construction code generally overengineers a solution to ensure that minor failure will not result in human harm.
It is possible to create both the space needed to elevate the car, and have a structurally sound garage given the picture. For instance, additional chords can be installed low enough to recreate trusses, but high enough to accommodate a raised vehicle. There are a number of truss styles that do not use a horizontal bottom chord, the scissor truss for instance. And using steel as a construction material can help to redirect the tensions through materials more capable of absorbing the load. Lastly, the walls themselves can be modified. It was typical of cathedrals to buttress on the exterior, the wall to handle high-arching ceilings, for instance.
Construction is often a question of engineering as much as it is design, and if safety is a concern, such as it might be in this photo, consulting a structural engineer would be the right thing to do. Structural design is their expertise, which would be my recommendation.
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
My intuition (by no means a calculation), would say that in this picture, several strategies would strengthen the roof. Running some sistered members across the cut joists would obviously create rectangles that would reinforce the wall from deforming. Purlins along the rafters would also work, or tying together those inside chords from the front to back parallel to the wall would also help. It's really a question of how sure one wants to be. Horizontal members higher up are a must. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_roof_truss#/media/…
– J D
2 days ago
5
@supercat If you want a roof with a hole, you design a roof with a hole. You don't first design a roof without a hole, then cut a hole in it, and then try to fix up the resulting mess.
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
@supercat This is the sort of timber roof design still standing after more than 600 years after it was built: greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Presentations/…
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
Some good information in this answer, and some bad. It is absolutely nothing to do with timber vs steel; it is to do with connections, and also member size.
– AndyT
yesterday
1
Yes, it's foolish to speculate at repairs that meet the intent of the destructor without doing the math on the remaining truss members. No repair can succeed unless the components the repair is applied to are up to the task. Knowing what I do about modern engineered trusses, there's little room for experimentation.
– isherwood
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
The triangle is an extremely stable form of architecture precisely because it has three sides. You remove one side, and you have one of the least stable forms of architecture on account that two members connected at a point can be affected by torque, which is by definition a force multiplier. If you want to play around with it to get a sense, try gluing two Popsicle sticks and three Popsicle sticks like the design in the picture above.
Any force directed downward will because of the elasticity of the wood create force outwards. If the members were steel, there would be substantially less deformation resulting in less outward force, but lumber is relatively flexible.
Now, it should be noted that some of the horizontal members are still in place, as many as half, and those runs will make it unlikely the structure will collapse under normal conditions, however, heavy winds or heavy snowfall, as mentioned in other comments, likely to create outward stresses in the middle section of the structure. The exact details of what will happen will largely be a matter of detail. To some extent, existing construction code generally overengineers a solution to ensure that minor failure will not result in human harm.
It is possible to create both the space needed to elevate the car, and have a structurally sound garage given the picture. For instance, additional chords can be installed low enough to recreate trusses, but high enough to accommodate a raised vehicle. There are a number of truss styles that do not use a horizontal bottom chord, the scissor truss for instance. And using steel as a construction material can help to redirect the tensions through materials more capable of absorbing the load. Lastly, the walls themselves can be modified. It was typical of cathedrals to buttress on the exterior, the wall to handle high-arching ceilings, for instance.
Construction is often a question of engineering as much as it is design, and if safety is a concern, such as it might be in this photo, consulting a structural engineer would be the right thing to do. Structural design is their expertise, which would be my recommendation.
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
My intuition (by no means a calculation), would say that in this picture, several strategies would strengthen the roof. Running some sistered members across the cut joists would obviously create rectangles that would reinforce the wall from deforming. Purlins along the rafters would also work, or tying together those inside chords from the front to back parallel to the wall would also help. It's really a question of how sure one wants to be. Horizontal members higher up are a must. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_roof_truss#/media/…
– J D
2 days ago
5
@supercat If you want a roof with a hole, you design a roof with a hole. You don't first design a roof without a hole, then cut a hole in it, and then try to fix up the resulting mess.
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
@supercat This is the sort of timber roof design still standing after more than 600 years after it was built: greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Presentations/…
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
Some good information in this answer, and some bad. It is absolutely nothing to do with timber vs steel; it is to do with connections, and also member size.
– AndyT
yesterday
1
Yes, it's foolish to speculate at repairs that meet the intent of the destructor without doing the math on the remaining truss members. No repair can succeed unless the components the repair is applied to are up to the task. Knowing what I do about modern engineered trusses, there's little room for experimentation.
– isherwood
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
The triangle is an extremely stable form of architecture precisely because it has three sides. You remove one side, and you have one of the least stable forms of architecture on account that two members connected at a point can be affected by torque, which is by definition a force multiplier. If you want to play around with it to get a sense, try gluing two Popsicle sticks and three Popsicle sticks like the design in the picture above.
Any force directed downward will because of the elasticity of the wood create force outwards. If the members were steel, there would be substantially less deformation resulting in less outward force, but lumber is relatively flexible.
Now, it should be noted that some of the horizontal members are still in place, as many as half, and those runs will make it unlikely the structure will collapse under normal conditions, however, heavy winds or heavy snowfall, as mentioned in other comments, likely to create outward stresses in the middle section of the structure. The exact details of what will happen will largely be a matter of detail. To some extent, existing construction code generally overengineers a solution to ensure that minor failure will not result in human harm.
It is possible to create both the space needed to elevate the car, and have a structurally sound garage given the picture. For instance, additional chords can be installed low enough to recreate trusses, but high enough to accommodate a raised vehicle. There are a number of truss styles that do not use a horizontal bottom chord, the scissor truss for instance. And using steel as a construction material can help to redirect the tensions through materials more capable of absorbing the load. Lastly, the walls themselves can be modified. It was typical of cathedrals to buttress on the exterior, the wall to handle high-arching ceilings, for instance.
Construction is often a question of engineering as much as it is design, and if safety is a concern, such as it might be in this photo, consulting a structural engineer would be the right thing to do. Structural design is their expertise, which would be my recommendation.
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
The triangle is an extremely stable form of architecture precisely because it has three sides. You remove one side, and you have one of the least stable forms of architecture on account that two members connected at a point can be affected by torque, which is by definition a force multiplier. If you want to play around with it to get a sense, try gluing two Popsicle sticks and three Popsicle sticks like the design in the picture above.
Any force directed downward will because of the elasticity of the wood create force outwards. If the members were steel, there would be substantially less deformation resulting in less outward force, but lumber is relatively flexible.
Now, it should be noted that some of the horizontal members are still in place, as many as half, and those runs will make it unlikely the structure will collapse under normal conditions, however, heavy winds or heavy snowfall, as mentioned in other comments, likely to create outward stresses in the middle section of the structure. The exact details of what will happen will largely be a matter of detail. To some extent, existing construction code generally overengineers a solution to ensure that minor failure will not result in human harm.
It is possible to create both the space needed to elevate the car, and have a structurally sound garage given the picture. For instance, additional chords can be installed low enough to recreate trusses, but high enough to accommodate a raised vehicle. There are a number of truss styles that do not use a horizontal bottom chord, the scissor truss for instance. And using steel as a construction material can help to redirect the tensions through materials more capable of absorbing the load. Lastly, the walls themselves can be modified. It was typical of cathedrals to buttress on the exterior, the wall to handle high-arching ceilings, for instance.
Construction is often a question of engineering as much as it is design, and if safety is a concern, such as it might be in this photo, consulting a structural engineer would be the right thing to do. Structural design is their expertise, which would be my recommendation.
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 12 hours ago
Bob
1034 bronze badges
1034 bronze badges
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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answered 2 days ago
J DJ D
1692 bronze badges
1692 bronze badges
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
J D is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
My intuition (by no means a calculation), would say that in this picture, several strategies would strengthen the roof. Running some sistered members across the cut joists would obviously create rectangles that would reinforce the wall from deforming. Purlins along the rafters would also work, or tying together those inside chords from the front to back parallel to the wall would also help. It's really a question of how sure one wants to be. Horizontal members higher up are a must. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_roof_truss#/media/…
– J D
2 days ago
5
@supercat If you want a roof with a hole, you design a roof with a hole. You don't first design a roof without a hole, then cut a hole in it, and then try to fix up the resulting mess.
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
@supercat This is the sort of timber roof design still standing after more than 600 years after it was built: greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Presentations/…
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
Some good information in this answer, and some bad. It is absolutely nothing to do with timber vs steel; it is to do with connections, and also member size.
– AndyT
yesterday
1
Yes, it's foolish to speculate at repairs that meet the intent of the destructor without doing the math on the remaining truss members. No repair can succeed unless the components the repair is applied to are up to the task. Knowing what I do about modern engineered trusses, there's little room for experimentation.
– isherwood
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
1
My intuition (by no means a calculation), would say that in this picture, several strategies would strengthen the roof. Running some sistered members across the cut joists would obviously create rectangles that would reinforce the wall from deforming. Purlins along the rafters would also work, or tying together those inside chords from the front to back parallel to the wall would also help. It's really a question of how sure one wants to be. Horizontal members higher up are a must. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_roof_truss#/media/…
– J D
2 days ago
5
@supercat If you want a roof with a hole, you design a roof with a hole. You don't first design a roof without a hole, then cut a hole in it, and then try to fix up the resulting mess.
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
@supercat This is the sort of timber roof design still standing after more than 600 years after it was built: greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Presentations/…
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
Some good information in this answer, and some bad. It is absolutely nothing to do with timber vs steel; it is to do with connections, and also member size.
– AndyT
yesterday
1
Yes, it's foolish to speculate at repairs that meet the intent of the destructor without doing the math on the remaining truss members. No repair can succeed unless the components the repair is applied to are up to the task. Knowing what I do about modern engineered trusses, there's little room for experimentation.
– isherwood
yesterday
1
1
My intuition (by no means a calculation), would say that in this picture, several strategies would strengthen the roof. Running some sistered members across the cut joists would obviously create rectangles that would reinforce the wall from deforming. Purlins along the rafters would also work, or tying together those inside chords from the front to back parallel to the wall would also help. It's really a question of how sure one wants to be. Horizontal members higher up are a must. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_roof_truss#/media/…
– J D
2 days ago
My intuition (by no means a calculation), would say that in this picture, several strategies would strengthen the roof. Running some sistered members across the cut joists would obviously create rectangles that would reinforce the wall from deforming. Purlins along the rafters would also work, or tying together those inside chords from the front to back parallel to the wall would also help. It's really a question of how sure one wants to be. Horizontal members higher up are a must. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_roof_truss#/media/…
– J D
2 days ago
5
5
@supercat If you want a roof with a hole, you design a roof with a hole. You don't first design a roof without a hole, then cut a hole in it, and then try to fix up the resulting mess.
– alephzero
2 days ago
@supercat If you want a roof with a hole, you design a roof with a hole. You don't first design a roof without a hole, then cut a hole in it, and then try to fix up the resulting mess.
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
1
@supercat This is the sort of timber roof design still standing after more than 600 years after it was built: greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Presentations/…
– alephzero
2 days ago
@supercat This is the sort of timber roof design still standing after more than 600 years after it was built: greenoakcarpentry.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Presentations/…
– alephzero
2 days ago
1
1
Some good information in this answer, and some bad. It is absolutely nothing to do with timber vs steel; it is to do with connections, and also member size.
– AndyT
yesterday
Some good information in this answer, and some bad. It is absolutely nothing to do with timber vs steel; it is to do with connections, and also member size.
– AndyT
yesterday
1
1
Yes, it's foolish to speculate at repairs that meet the intent of the destructor without doing the math on the remaining truss members. No repair can succeed unless the components the repair is applied to are up to the task. Knowing what I do about modern engineered trusses, there's little room for experimentation.
– isherwood
yesterday
Yes, it's foolish to speculate at repairs that meet the intent of the destructor without doing the math on the remaining truss members. No repair can succeed unless the components the repair is applied to are up to the task. Knowing what I do about modern engineered trusses, there's little room for experimentation.
– isherwood
yesterday
|
show 9 more comments
As pictured - very bad idea.
It may work IF the roof is re-engineered to carry a lot more of the stress across the top and bottom of the cutout. That means a much beefier horizontal beam on all four sides of his hole AND a rework of the roof by re-trussing the entire structure.
Some examples:
This one is a Scissor Truss, and also wears the more general name "church truss" or "nave truss" Note some of these have thinner tie rods across the middle exactly where the bottom chord would be - those aren't suitable.

A little ornate for a workshop, but you can see how the load is being brought down to the walls with inner buttressing.
This one is called a Coffer Truss and as pictured would work perfectly. However the thickness of the rafters (top cords) would have to be increased several-fold to cope with the extra stresses.
This would work too - depending on how much height there is at the top of the wall.
Last option is to completely reframe the roof with steel trusses, and do away with the wooden ones. Properly enginerded steel will have more strength than the wooden ones while allowing the open space required.
Any way - whatever creative handyman did this has made a difficult job into an utter nightmare of a job. It would have been less work to remove the roof and then re-truss leaving the bottom chords in place to support the walls until the new roof framing is on.
Frankly, it would probably have been cheaper to build a new garage rather than monster the existing one and now have to repair it.
Also consider any insurance claim will be harder to win, based on the level of care exhibited here. I'd bet any insurance claim for snow damage or storm damage would be rejected out of hand. If this is used for a business, any claim for a customer car damaged by this collapse would be rejected as "failure to use due care"
You need to speak with a structural engineer immediately in person and ideally on-site. I am not a structural engineer.
add a comment |
As pictured - very bad idea.
It may work IF the roof is re-engineered to carry a lot more of the stress across the top and bottom of the cutout. That means a much beefier horizontal beam on all four sides of his hole AND a rework of the roof by re-trussing the entire structure.
Some examples:
This one is a Scissor Truss, and also wears the more general name "church truss" or "nave truss" Note some of these have thinner tie rods across the middle exactly where the bottom chord would be - those aren't suitable.

A little ornate for a workshop, but you can see how the load is being brought down to the walls with inner buttressing.
This one is called a Coffer Truss and as pictured would work perfectly. However the thickness of the rafters (top cords) would have to be increased several-fold to cope with the extra stresses.
This would work too - depending on how much height there is at the top of the wall.
Last option is to completely reframe the roof with steel trusses, and do away with the wooden ones. Properly enginerded steel will have more strength than the wooden ones while allowing the open space required.
Any way - whatever creative handyman did this has made a difficult job into an utter nightmare of a job. It would have been less work to remove the roof and then re-truss leaving the bottom chords in place to support the walls until the new roof framing is on.
Frankly, it would probably have been cheaper to build a new garage rather than monster the existing one and now have to repair it.
Also consider any insurance claim will be harder to win, based on the level of care exhibited here. I'd bet any insurance claim for snow damage or storm damage would be rejected out of hand. If this is used for a business, any claim for a customer car damaged by this collapse would be rejected as "failure to use due care"
You need to speak with a structural engineer immediately in person and ideally on-site. I am not a structural engineer.
add a comment |
As pictured - very bad idea.
It may work IF the roof is re-engineered to carry a lot more of the stress across the top and bottom of the cutout. That means a much beefier horizontal beam on all four sides of his hole AND a rework of the roof by re-trussing the entire structure.
Some examples:
This one is a Scissor Truss, and also wears the more general name "church truss" or "nave truss" Note some of these have thinner tie rods across the middle exactly where the bottom chord would be - those aren't suitable.

A little ornate for a workshop, but you can see how the load is being brought down to the walls with inner buttressing.
This one is called a Coffer Truss and as pictured would work perfectly. However the thickness of the rafters (top cords) would have to be increased several-fold to cope with the extra stresses.
This would work too - depending on how much height there is at the top of the wall.
Last option is to completely reframe the roof with steel trusses, and do away with the wooden ones. Properly enginerded steel will have more strength than the wooden ones while allowing the open space required.
Any way - whatever creative handyman did this has made a difficult job into an utter nightmare of a job. It would have been less work to remove the roof and then re-truss leaving the bottom chords in place to support the walls until the new roof framing is on.
Frankly, it would probably have been cheaper to build a new garage rather than monster the existing one and now have to repair it.
Also consider any insurance claim will be harder to win, based on the level of care exhibited here. I'd bet any insurance claim for snow damage or storm damage would be rejected out of hand. If this is used for a business, any claim for a customer car damaged by this collapse would be rejected as "failure to use due care"
You need to speak with a structural engineer immediately in person and ideally on-site. I am not a structural engineer.
As pictured - very bad idea.
It may work IF the roof is re-engineered to carry a lot more of the stress across the top and bottom of the cutout. That means a much beefier horizontal beam on all four sides of his hole AND a rework of the roof by re-trussing the entire structure.
Some examples:
This one is a Scissor Truss, and also wears the more general name "church truss" or "nave truss" Note some of these have thinner tie rods across the middle exactly where the bottom chord would be - those aren't suitable.

A little ornate for a workshop, but you can see how the load is being brought down to the walls with inner buttressing.
This one is called a Coffer Truss and as pictured would work perfectly. However the thickness of the rafters (top cords) would have to be increased several-fold to cope with the extra stresses.
This would work too - depending on how much height there is at the top of the wall.
Last option is to completely reframe the roof with steel trusses, and do away with the wooden ones. Properly enginerded steel will have more strength than the wooden ones while allowing the open space required.
Any way - whatever creative handyman did this has made a difficult job into an utter nightmare of a job. It would have been less work to remove the roof and then re-truss leaving the bottom chords in place to support the walls until the new roof framing is on.
Frankly, it would probably have been cheaper to build a new garage rather than monster the existing one and now have to repair it.
Also consider any insurance claim will be harder to win, based on the level of care exhibited here. I'd bet any insurance claim for snow damage or storm damage would be rejected out of hand. If this is used for a business, any claim for a customer car damaged by this collapse would be rejected as "failure to use due care"
You need to speak with a structural engineer immediately in person and ideally on-site. I am not a structural engineer.
answered 13 hours ago
CriggieCriggie
1,2466 silver badges18 bronze badges
1,2466 silver badges18 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
Lynn Baker is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Lynn Baker is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Lynn Baker is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Lynn Baker is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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15
With no horizontal members tying across that gap it looks to me as though there would be a risk of the peak collapsing downwards as the walls bow outwards...
– brhans
Aug 19 at 22:04
8
Will you be expecting snow?
– JACK
Aug 20 at 0:07
11
He just created this future situation for himself: diy.stackexchange.com/q/94143/42053
– MonkeyZeus
2 days ago
6
I never wish to be in a car he worked in, given his total disregard for safety.
– Walker
yesterday
9
Too bad there is no "impending-disaster" tag.
– Eric Hauenstein
yesterday