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When to make kiddush at a Seder with no wine?
What makes a wine valid for Kiddush?At the seder, does everybody make kiddush?Starting the Seder after Sheki'ah (sunset)?Why wine for kiddush?How is the liturgy affected by Passover falling on a Friday night?Making Kiddush with Grape Juice or White WineWhat kind of seder did a non-oleh l'regel have during the time of the Bais Hamikdash (and for that matter, the entire 40 years in the desert)?Why were Nazarites forbidden to touch anything made of grapes, but we a brocha over wine at shabbat?Throwing away leftover kiddush wineIs one supposed to eat the zero'ah (shank bone) from the Seder plate?
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What is one supposed to do on Seder night if he has no wine (nor chamar medinah if that’s relevant) at all?
On a regular Friday night one would make kiddush on bread under these circumstances (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayyim 272:9) but on Seder night one is supposed to eat karpas and say the haggadah before eating matzah.
So what does one do? Make kiddush on matzah right at the start of the seder? Defer kiddush until after maggid? Some other solution?
passover-seder-hagada grapes-wine kiddush
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
add a comment |
What is one supposed to do on Seder night if he has no wine (nor chamar medinah if that’s relevant) at all?
On a regular Friday night one would make kiddush on bread under these circumstances (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayyim 272:9) but on Seder night one is supposed to eat karpas and say the haggadah before eating matzah.
So what does one do? Make kiddush on matzah right at the start of the seder? Defer kiddush until after maggid? Some other solution?
passover-seder-hagada grapes-wine kiddush
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
add a comment |
What is one supposed to do on Seder night if he has no wine (nor chamar medinah if that’s relevant) at all?
On a regular Friday night one would make kiddush on bread under these circumstances (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayyim 272:9) but on Seder night one is supposed to eat karpas and say the haggadah before eating matzah.
So what does one do? Make kiddush on matzah right at the start of the seder? Defer kiddush until after maggid? Some other solution?
passover-seder-hagada grapes-wine kiddush
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
What is one supposed to do on Seder night if he has no wine (nor chamar medinah if that’s relevant) at all?
On a regular Friday night one would make kiddush on bread under these circumstances (Shulchan Aruch Orach Chayyim 272:9) but on Seder night one is supposed to eat karpas and say the haggadah before eating matzah.
So what does one do? Make kiddush on matzah right at the start of the seder? Defer kiddush until after maggid? Some other solution?
passover-seder-hagada grapes-wine kiddush
passover-seder-hagada grapes-wine kiddush
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
asked 8 hours ago
Joel KJoel K
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
17.3k2 gold badges30 silver badges104 bronze badges
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
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Shulchan Arukh OC 483
מי שאין לו יין בליל פסח מקדש על הפת שמברך המוציא ובוצע ומניח ידיו עליו עד שגומר הקידוש ומברך על אכילת מצה ואוכל ואחר כך אוכל שאר ירקות ומסלק השלחן ואומר מה נשתנה וכל ההגדה עד גאל ישראל ומברך על המרור ואוכל ואחר כך כורך מצה ומרור ואוכל.
One who doesn't have wine on Pesach night [takes the Matza, says Hamotzi, splits it, says Kiddush on it] and blesses על אכילת מצה and eats it and then eats [Karpas] and then removes the table and says [Maggid] and then [Maror] and then [Korekh]
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
1
That's Rochtza Motzi Yachatz Kaddesh Matza Karpas Maggid Urchatz Maror Korekh Shulchan-Orekh Tzafun Barekh Hallel
– Double AA♦
8 hours ago
Although note Magen Avraham that for those with the practice of using three matzot, Yachatz should precede Motzi.
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@Joel yes, though the Magen Avraham isn't so compelling because why would the Rif have insisted you keep two full ones for Hamotzi if he doesn't need Lechem Mishneh? there are also a handful of other options in rishonim for how to order things.
– Double AA♦
7 hours ago
I think Rif means you start with one and a half, make hamotzi, break the half further and then say kiddush and al achilat matzah. See Bach and Pri Megadim
– Joel K
5 hours ago
@JoelK if so then those who use two and half would still break the half further after motzi, since when you break the half further is not tied to the 1.5/2.5 dispute
– Double AA♦
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Shulchan Arukh OC 483
מי שאין לו יין בליל פסח מקדש על הפת שמברך המוציא ובוצע ומניח ידיו עליו עד שגומר הקידוש ומברך על אכילת מצה ואוכל ואחר כך אוכל שאר ירקות ומסלק השלחן ואומר מה נשתנה וכל ההגדה עד גאל ישראל ומברך על המרור ואוכל ואחר כך כורך מצה ומרור ואוכל.
One who doesn't have wine on Pesach night [takes the Matza, says Hamotzi, splits it, says Kiddush on it] and blesses על אכילת מצה and eats it and then eats [Karpas] and then removes the table and says [Maggid] and then [Maror] and then [Korekh]
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
1
That's Rochtza Motzi Yachatz Kaddesh Matza Karpas Maggid Urchatz Maror Korekh Shulchan-Orekh Tzafun Barekh Hallel
– Double AA♦
8 hours ago
Although note Magen Avraham that for those with the practice of using three matzot, Yachatz should precede Motzi.
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@Joel yes, though the Magen Avraham isn't so compelling because why would the Rif have insisted you keep two full ones for Hamotzi if he doesn't need Lechem Mishneh? there are also a handful of other options in rishonim for how to order things.
– Double AA♦
7 hours ago
I think Rif means you start with one and a half, make hamotzi, break the half further and then say kiddush and al achilat matzah. See Bach and Pri Megadim
– Joel K
5 hours ago
@JoelK if so then those who use two and half would still break the half further after motzi, since when you break the half further is not tied to the 1.5/2.5 dispute
– Double AA♦
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Shulchan Arukh OC 483
מי שאין לו יין בליל פסח מקדש על הפת שמברך המוציא ובוצע ומניח ידיו עליו עד שגומר הקידוש ומברך על אכילת מצה ואוכל ואחר כך אוכל שאר ירקות ומסלק השלחן ואומר מה נשתנה וכל ההגדה עד גאל ישראל ומברך על המרור ואוכל ואחר כך כורך מצה ומרור ואוכל.
One who doesn't have wine on Pesach night [takes the Matza, says Hamotzi, splits it, says Kiddush on it] and blesses על אכילת מצה and eats it and then eats [Karpas] and then removes the table and says [Maggid] and then [Maror] and then [Korekh]
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
1
That's Rochtza Motzi Yachatz Kaddesh Matza Karpas Maggid Urchatz Maror Korekh Shulchan-Orekh Tzafun Barekh Hallel
– Double AA♦
8 hours ago
Although note Magen Avraham that for those with the practice of using three matzot, Yachatz should precede Motzi.
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@Joel yes, though the Magen Avraham isn't so compelling because why would the Rif have insisted you keep two full ones for Hamotzi if he doesn't need Lechem Mishneh? there are also a handful of other options in rishonim for how to order things.
– Double AA♦
7 hours ago
I think Rif means you start with one and a half, make hamotzi, break the half further and then say kiddush and al achilat matzah. See Bach and Pri Megadim
– Joel K
5 hours ago
@JoelK if so then those who use two and half would still break the half further after motzi, since when you break the half further is not tied to the 1.5/2.5 dispute
– Double AA♦
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Shulchan Arukh OC 483
מי שאין לו יין בליל פסח מקדש על הפת שמברך המוציא ובוצע ומניח ידיו עליו עד שגומר הקידוש ומברך על אכילת מצה ואוכל ואחר כך אוכל שאר ירקות ומסלק השלחן ואומר מה נשתנה וכל ההגדה עד גאל ישראל ומברך על המרור ואוכל ואחר כך כורך מצה ומרור ואוכל.
One who doesn't have wine on Pesach night [takes the Matza, says Hamotzi, splits it, says Kiddush on it] and blesses על אכילת מצה and eats it and then eats [Karpas] and then removes the table and says [Maggid] and then [Maror] and then [Korekh]
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
Shulchan Arukh OC 483
מי שאין לו יין בליל פסח מקדש על הפת שמברך המוציא ובוצע ומניח ידיו עליו עד שגומר הקידוש ומברך על אכילת מצה ואוכל ואחר כך אוכל שאר ירקות ומסלק השלחן ואומר מה נשתנה וכל ההגדה עד גאל ישראל ומברך על המרור ואוכל ואחר כך כורך מצה ומרור ואוכל.
One who doesn't have wine on Pesach night [takes the Matza, says Hamotzi, splits it, says Kiddush on it] and blesses על אכילת מצה and eats it and then eats [Karpas] and then removes the table and says [Maggid] and then [Maror] and then [Korekh]
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
edited 8 hours ago
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
answered 8 hours ago
Double AA♦Double AA
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
80.8k6 gold badges201 silver badges441 bronze badges
1
That's Rochtza Motzi Yachatz Kaddesh Matza Karpas Maggid Urchatz Maror Korekh Shulchan-Orekh Tzafun Barekh Hallel
– Double AA♦
8 hours ago
Although note Magen Avraham that for those with the practice of using three matzot, Yachatz should precede Motzi.
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@Joel yes, though the Magen Avraham isn't so compelling because why would the Rif have insisted you keep two full ones for Hamotzi if he doesn't need Lechem Mishneh? there are also a handful of other options in rishonim for how to order things.
– Double AA♦
7 hours ago
I think Rif means you start with one and a half, make hamotzi, break the half further and then say kiddush and al achilat matzah. See Bach and Pri Megadim
– Joel K
5 hours ago
@JoelK if so then those who use two and half would still break the half further after motzi, since when you break the half further is not tied to the 1.5/2.5 dispute
– Double AA♦
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
1
That's Rochtza Motzi Yachatz Kaddesh Matza Karpas Maggid Urchatz Maror Korekh Shulchan-Orekh Tzafun Barekh Hallel
– Double AA♦
8 hours ago
Although note Magen Avraham that for those with the practice of using three matzot, Yachatz should precede Motzi.
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@Joel yes, though the Magen Avraham isn't so compelling because why would the Rif have insisted you keep two full ones for Hamotzi if he doesn't need Lechem Mishneh? there are also a handful of other options in rishonim for how to order things.
– Double AA♦
7 hours ago
I think Rif means you start with one and a half, make hamotzi, break the half further and then say kiddush and al achilat matzah. See Bach and Pri Megadim
– Joel K
5 hours ago
@JoelK if so then those who use two and half would still break the half further after motzi, since when you break the half further is not tied to the 1.5/2.5 dispute
– Double AA♦
5 hours ago
1
1
That's Rochtza Motzi Yachatz Kaddesh Matza Karpas Maggid Urchatz Maror Korekh Shulchan-Orekh Tzafun Barekh Hallel
– Double AA♦
8 hours ago
That's Rochtza Motzi Yachatz Kaddesh Matza Karpas Maggid Urchatz Maror Korekh Shulchan-Orekh Tzafun Barekh Hallel
– Double AA♦
8 hours ago
Although note Magen Avraham that for those with the practice of using three matzot, Yachatz should precede Motzi.
– Joel K
8 hours ago
Although note Magen Avraham that for those with the practice of using three matzot, Yachatz should precede Motzi.
– Joel K
8 hours ago
@Joel yes, though the Magen Avraham isn't so compelling because why would the Rif have insisted you keep two full ones for Hamotzi if he doesn't need Lechem Mishneh? there are also a handful of other options in rishonim for how to order things.
– Double AA♦
7 hours ago
@Joel yes, though the Magen Avraham isn't so compelling because why would the Rif have insisted you keep two full ones for Hamotzi if he doesn't need Lechem Mishneh? there are also a handful of other options in rishonim for how to order things.
– Double AA♦
7 hours ago
I think Rif means you start with one and a half, make hamotzi, break the half further and then say kiddush and al achilat matzah. See Bach and Pri Megadim
– Joel K
5 hours ago
I think Rif means you start with one and a half, make hamotzi, break the half further and then say kiddush and al achilat matzah. See Bach and Pri Megadim
– Joel K
5 hours ago
@JoelK if so then those who use two and half would still break the half further after motzi, since when you break the half further is not tied to the 1.5/2.5 dispute
– Double AA♦
5 hours ago
@JoelK if so then those who use two and half would still break the half further after motzi, since when you break the half further is not tied to the 1.5/2.5 dispute
– Double AA♦
5 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment