How can a clan of females defend themselves in the ancient world against wandering bands?How would the Lilim...

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How can a clan of females defend themselves in the ancient world against wandering bands?


How would the Lilim live?How would fembots change society?Would these changes to humanity due to genetic memory help technology develop more quickly or slowly than our world?How would a race of fish people whose women carry their males around in their bellies during much of the day be affected by this?How can isolated matrilineal societies avoid loss of genetic variation?How can a polyandrous society maintain its stability over the long term?How can a extremist group gain total political control of a medieval society?How would a matriarchy rationalize infanticide?How can a patriarch ensure the loyalty of a competing clan through marriage?What security advantages would an all-female bodyguard system offer?













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In this setting, the family unit is based around a clan system. An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in, and its ancestry is based on matrilineal lines. Marriage does not exist in the form we would recognize. Women remain in the clan they were born into, and support it throughout their lives.



Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads. Roving bands of these men wander the countryside, hunting and living off the land, moving when neccessary. During breeding season, these bands visit one of these small clans, spend the season, and then leave to go back to their lives.



However, these roving bands can be dangerous. Being made to live off the land, they may be forced to compete with each other for resources. This turns them into seasoned hunters and warriors. Many can see the small clans, made up of women to be easy prey. Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans. Without the equalizing force of technology we have today, this presents a problem.



I need a way to make this viable so that it is actually possible to make this happen in the ancient world. Religion is always the go-to answer for why people do things, but that doesn't seem enough in this case for partial reasons. What set of circumstances would I need to introduce in order to make this culture and way of life stable over the long term?










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  • 2




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    This is too broad and POB. What technologies are available to the women? What is the geography around (each and every) clan? What is the physiology of the species? Frankly, what makes this different from every homesteading settlement in the U.S. old west period? Remember, WB questions are about rules and systems. Off-topic questions are about circumstances, actions, and plot. This is asking what action the characters should take. Can you be more specific? Can you make this about culture rather than character actions?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Halfthawed Please don't post answers in the comment section. If you are answering the question, even if the answer is "for reasons X, Y and Z, that's not possible", then post it as an answer instead. If you are requesting clarification, now, that's what comments are for.
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    6 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    There's a conflict between "An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in" and "Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads". What use is clan allegiance? You might be the firstborn son of the empress of the eastern isles, but that ain't gonna slaughter no mammoths. Hunter-gatherers prize competence and charisma when it comes to respect and power. There's no room for dead weight, after all.
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    6 hours ago


















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In this setting, the family unit is based around a clan system. An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in, and its ancestry is based on matrilineal lines. Marriage does not exist in the form we would recognize. Women remain in the clan they were born into, and support it throughout their lives.



Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads. Roving bands of these men wander the countryside, hunting and living off the land, moving when neccessary. During breeding season, these bands visit one of these small clans, spend the season, and then leave to go back to their lives.



However, these roving bands can be dangerous. Being made to live off the land, they may be forced to compete with each other for resources. This turns them into seasoned hunters and warriors. Many can see the small clans, made up of women to be easy prey. Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans. Without the equalizing force of technology we have today, this presents a problem.



I need a way to make this viable so that it is actually possible to make this happen in the ancient world. Religion is always the go-to answer for why people do things, but that doesn't seem enough in this case for partial reasons. What set of circumstances would I need to introduce in order to make this culture and way of life stable over the long term?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is too broad and POB. What technologies are available to the women? What is the geography around (each and every) clan? What is the physiology of the species? Frankly, what makes this different from every homesteading settlement in the U.S. old west period? Remember, WB questions are about rules and systems. Off-topic questions are about circumstances, actions, and plot. This is asking what action the characters should take. Can you be more specific? Can you make this about culture rather than character actions?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Halfthawed Please don't post answers in the comment section. If you are answering the question, even if the answer is "for reasons X, Y and Z, that's not possible", then post it as an answer instead. If you are requesting clarification, now, that's what comments are for.
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    6 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    There's a conflict between "An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in" and "Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads". What use is clan allegiance? You might be the firstborn son of the empress of the eastern isles, but that ain't gonna slaughter no mammoths. Hunter-gatherers prize competence and charisma when it comes to respect and power. There's no room for dead weight, after all.
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    6 hours ago
















1












1








1





$begingroup$


In this setting, the family unit is based around a clan system. An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in, and its ancestry is based on matrilineal lines. Marriage does not exist in the form we would recognize. Women remain in the clan they were born into, and support it throughout their lives.



Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads. Roving bands of these men wander the countryside, hunting and living off the land, moving when neccessary. During breeding season, these bands visit one of these small clans, spend the season, and then leave to go back to their lives.



However, these roving bands can be dangerous. Being made to live off the land, they may be forced to compete with each other for resources. This turns them into seasoned hunters and warriors. Many can see the small clans, made up of women to be easy prey. Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans. Without the equalizing force of technology we have today, this presents a problem.



I need a way to make this viable so that it is actually possible to make this happen in the ancient world. Religion is always the go-to answer for why people do things, but that doesn't seem enough in this case for partial reasons. What set of circumstances would I need to introduce in order to make this culture and way of life stable over the long term?










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




In this setting, the family unit is based around a clan system. An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in, and its ancestry is based on matrilineal lines. Marriage does not exist in the form we would recognize. Women remain in the clan they were born into, and support it throughout their lives.



Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads. Roving bands of these men wander the countryside, hunting and living off the land, moving when neccessary. During breeding season, these bands visit one of these small clans, spend the season, and then leave to go back to their lives.



However, these roving bands can be dangerous. Being made to live off the land, they may be forced to compete with each other for resources. This turns them into seasoned hunters and warriors. Many can see the small clans, made up of women to be easy prey. Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans. Without the equalizing force of technology we have today, this presents a problem.



I need a way to make this viable so that it is actually possible to make this happen in the ancient world. Religion is always the go-to answer for why people do things, but that doesn't seem enough in this case for partial reasons. What set of circumstances would I need to introduce in order to make this culture and way of life stable over the long term?







society ancient-history






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  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is too broad and POB. What technologies are available to the women? What is the geography around (each and every) clan? What is the physiology of the species? Frankly, what makes this different from every homesteading settlement in the U.S. old west period? Remember, WB questions are about rules and systems. Off-topic questions are about circumstances, actions, and plot. This is asking what action the characters should take. Can you be more specific? Can you make this about culture rather than character actions?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Halfthawed Please don't post answers in the comment section. If you are answering the question, even if the answer is "for reasons X, Y and Z, that's not possible", then post it as an answer instead. If you are requesting clarification, now, that's what comments are for.
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    6 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    There's a conflict between "An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in" and "Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads". What use is clan allegiance? You might be the firstborn son of the empress of the eastern isles, but that ain't gonna slaughter no mammoths. Hunter-gatherers prize competence and charisma when it comes to respect and power. There's no room for dead weight, after all.
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    6 hours ago
















  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This is too broad and POB. What technologies are available to the women? What is the geography around (each and every) clan? What is the physiology of the species? Frankly, what makes this different from every homesteading settlement in the U.S. old west period? Remember, WB questions are about rules and systems. Off-topic questions are about circumstances, actions, and plot. This is asking what action the characters should take. Can you be more specific? Can you make this about culture rather than character actions?
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    8 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Halfthawed Please don't post answers in the comment section. If you are answering the question, even if the answer is "for reasons X, Y and Z, that's not possible", then post it as an answer instead. If you are requesting clarification, now, that's what comments are for.
    $endgroup$
    – a CVn
    6 hours ago












  • $begingroup$
    There's a conflict between "An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in" and "Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads". What use is clan allegiance? You might be the firstborn son of the empress of the eastern isles, but that ain't gonna slaughter no mammoths. Hunter-gatherers prize competence and charisma when it comes to respect and power. There's no room for dead weight, after all.
    $endgroup$
    – Starfish Prime
    6 hours ago










2




2




$begingroup$
This is too broad and POB. What technologies are available to the women? What is the geography around (each and every) clan? What is the physiology of the species? Frankly, what makes this different from every homesteading settlement in the U.S. old west period? Remember, WB questions are about rules and systems. Off-topic questions are about circumstances, actions, and plot. This is asking what action the characters should take. Can you be more specific? Can you make this about culture rather than character actions?
$endgroup$
– JBH
8 hours ago




$begingroup$
This is too broad and POB. What technologies are available to the women? What is the geography around (each and every) clan? What is the physiology of the species? Frankly, what makes this different from every homesteading settlement in the U.S. old west period? Remember, WB questions are about rules and systems. Off-topic questions are about circumstances, actions, and plot. This is asking what action the characters should take. Can you be more specific? Can you make this about culture rather than character actions?
$endgroup$
– JBH
8 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Halfthawed Please don't post answers in the comment section. If you are answering the question, even if the answer is "for reasons X, Y and Z, that's not possible", then post it as an answer instead. If you are requesting clarification, now, that's what comments are for.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
6 hours ago






$begingroup$
@Halfthawed Please don't post answers in the comment section. If you are answering the question, even if the answer is "for reasons X, Y and Z, that's not possible", then post it as an answer instead. If you are requesting clarification, now, that's what comments are for.
$endgroup$
– a CVn
6 hours ago














$begingroup$
There's a conflict between "An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in" and "Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads". What use is clan allegiance? You might be the firstborn son of the empress of the eastern isles, but that ain't gonna slaughter no mammoths. Hunter-gatherers prize competence and charisma when it comes to respect and power. There's no room for dead weight, after all.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
6 hours ago






$begingroup$
There's a conflict between "An individual's wealth and status is related to the clan they are born in" and "Boys exit their clans upon reaching adulthood. These males leave their families to join small bands of males who live as nomads". What use is clan allegiance? You might be the firstborn son of the empress of the eastern isles, but that ain't gonna slaughter no mammoths. Hunter-gatherers prize competence and charisma when it comes to respect and power. There's no room for dead weight, after all.
$endgroup$
– Starfish Prime
6 hours ago












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Three pieces of tech that have been protecting humans from other humans for 5000 years.




  1. Hill forts.


Fortified villages.



https://www.thefield.co.uk/features/iron-age-hillforts-21556



The women live on fortified hills. They can see people coming from a distance and they watch. It is a costly endeavor to try to storm one of these hill forts because the women are good shots and they have a lot of arrows. And poison.




  1. Dogs.


wild dogs
These semi-feral dogs live in the fields around the fort. The women encourage them and feed them, sometimes. The dogs keep out herbivores. They also keep out men.



3. Better the devil you know...



The men are no dopes. When it comes breeding time, they know what is up. A band of men will stake out territory in the countryside around a given hill fort. If some other band shows up to get in position, they will have to fight for it. The local band is a known quantities to the women, and these locals do not want to screw up the good thing they have going. They are going to respect the ladies and their system and in turn they get let inside the walls once a year. Random dudes in the hinterlands are out of luck.



If a serious band of marauders does show up and overpower the local band, surviving men will head for the hill fort. They have to get past the dogs, but if a couple of the regular guys show up with their tails between their legs, the women will know to light the fires and get ready.






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    +1 just for pointing out that men would lay claim to clans. Kinda like lions and their prides. In fact, this symbiotic relationship would be almost culturally unavoidable.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    8 hours ago












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    I like the dogs idea, but the issue there is that you need a decent supply of meat to keep your dogs in good condition, and that places certain requirements on the sorts of farming, fishing or trade that the female population need to engage in. I suspect that chariots or cavalry would be somewhat anachronistic given the "ancient world" requirement, alas, and there aren't too many dangerous, domesticable herbivores about.
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    – Starfish Prime
    6 hours ago



















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The way you describe them sounds like this is a hard-wired, bred-in bioevolutionary situation.



I would posit that the females of this race, being left otherwise defenseless, will do what females must. They will be their own warriors, their own hunters, their own watchmen, their own scouts.



I would suspect that because of their biology and their social wiring, males have no interest in females except during the mating season. Once the girls' pheromones wear off and pregnancies are ensured, that's the last they'll see of their boyos until next time. It may be that, perhaps unknown to the females, their males kind of look after them from a distance. They may not live in one community, but these associations of males may wander from place to place in a broad territory that encompasses the smaller territories of their females.






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    If we assume that we are speaking about humans or a sufficiently similar species, I can imagine one way that can be achieved comparatively easily.



    Whether you want to implement it would depend on the degree of cynicism and brutality you want to have in your setting.



    It's a primitive, but a pretty effective practice of population control that archaic societies actually often employed - castration. It's pretty horrific, but not much more then female circumcision that is still practiced in some regions.



    The eunuchs would then stay in the female villages, and the proportion of villagers to rowing males would be quite far from natural 1:1. The precise proportion of men who are cut to those who are left whole can also be different, depending on the result you want. If you want the maximum genetic diversity with the minimal number of males, they would banish the firstborn son of every woman at puberty and cut all subsequent ones.



    The cultural attitude to such practice and the attitude of eunuchs themselves can also be quite different. On one end of the spectrum, they can be treated as property and traded between clans (as women sometimes were, historically) - then you may have a pretty disgruntled portion of population. On the other end, especially if property and status are family matter and not individual, they can stay with their mothers and sisters, working to improve the position of the family and getting privileges from that themselves. In that case, eunuchs can actually count themselves more lucky then those 'whole' males that were banished to the wild lands in puberty. In that case, most of the people in this society won't even think there's anything obviously wrong in their arrangement.






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      I was going to suggest a more surreptitious poison'n'backstab approach whereby the wrong kind of men tended to get culled from the flock by cunning rather than outright violence, but this idea is much better.
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      – Starfish Prime
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    Assuming that (1) we are speaking about humans and (2) by "ancient world" we are to understand the historical ancient world, that is, no pre-historical hunter-gatherers, then the way of life described in the question can be made stable over the long term, but probably not as the querent envisioned it.



    The problem comes from the huge disparity between the population densities of a settled agricultural society and a dispersed hunter-gatherer society.



    Since the question speaks about the ancient world we must assume that the matriarchal clans are settled in villages or towns and practice some sort of agriculture. This enables them to reach reasonably high densities and total numbers of inhabitants. But then the question says that boys are expelled at 12 or 14 years of age (when they "reach adulthood" according to ancient conventions) and go to live from hunting and gathering. This has the immediate consequence that most men die young, and thus in the world of the question there are many more women than men. And those males who don't die young must by necessity live in very small groups scattered far and wide, for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations.



    Moreover, the hunting and gathering men cannot possibly be "seasoned warriors". Fierce brawlers, yes, quite possibly. Fearless fighters, acceptable. Seasoned warriors, nope. War as practiced by half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians is simply not at the same level as war practiced by civilized settled societies.



    So in the end the civilized women can easily fend off attacks by the barbarian men. Women have numbers on their side, they have actual military formations and tactics and discipline, and they have fortifications. How do I know that they have fortifications? Because everybody had fortifications in the antiquity. Even a ditch and an earthen rampart, what the Romans called a vallum, are force multipliers. (Fun note: the English word "wall" comes from Latin vallum, an earthen fortitication consisting of a ditch and rampart. A proper wall is murus in Latin.)



    All right, so the barbarian men are too few, too dispersed and too barbarian to pose a significant threat to the civilized women. What can be done to make them more fearsome, while preserving as much as possible from the premiss of the question?



    Simple. Ditch hunting and living of the land and make them nomadic pastoralists.



    Nomadic pastoralism was indeed a well recognized way of life in the antiquity, and not only. Some cultures, for example the Lapps and the Mongolians, preserved it well into the modern age.



    Make the sexual division of labor in this world more pervasive than in our real history: have the women labor the land and grow crops, while men roam the wide plains with their herds in search of pasture.



    Such an approach would naturally lead to the conflict between tribes of nomadic pastoralists, reminiscent of the range wars known from American westerns; it would also naturally lead to conflict between free-roaming open-range pastoralists and the settled crop-growing women.




    • But in this case, wouldn't women (smaller, physically weaker, etc. stereotypes) be certain to lose? No. The settled women would still have an advantage in numbers, albeit smaller than in the case of confronting scattered hunter-gatherers; they would still have an advantage in culture and discipline; they would still have fortifications.


    • But didn't the nomadic pastoralists Mongols conquer the world? Well, they did indeed conquer a lot of land, which then they promptly lost. We will never know what would have happened in the end if the Mongols had persisted in their invasion of Europe; I for one think that they would have been beaten even if they had not decided on their own to abandon the attempt. Anyway, better to have those feminine settlements be somewhere not in the featureless boundless steppe.



    Nitpicks:




    • "Breeding season": humans do not have a breeding season. Better make the sexual congress take place in the autumn, after the crops are gathered and everybody feasts.


    • "Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans": and what's keeping the settled towns from banding together to defend their lands? That's the ancient and time tested response to external threats: form a confederacy, a kingdom, an empire. The plucky warlord will realize that what he has done is piss off the mighty Empress of the Fertile Valleys. The bards sing to this day the heroic feats of arms seen in the epic battles.







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      "half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians" oh, come on now. You should know better than that. "the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations" by which you mean usually does not support dense populations. The people of the pacific northwest did extremely well for themselves, for example.
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      – Starfish Prime
      6 hours ago










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      @StarfishPrime: I have no idea how well the people of the peaceful northwest did. I don't even know who those people were. Link please, even to WIkipedia? (My knowledge of things American is rather limited, and what little there is is shamefully out of date: but I am curious and willing to read.) (And when the question asks for the "ancient world" I naturally think of the Old World.)
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      – AlexP
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      Huh. I was not expecting that response, and am slightly unprepared for it ;-) The matter is a complex one, and the wikipedia link is basically an index rather than an informative overview, and I don't have any other good resources off the top of my head. As a very, very brief summary: the amount of food that could be obtained by hunting and gathering there allowed for unusually large permanent settlements and a quite elaborate culture.
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      – Starfish Prime
      6 hours ago












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      There's a more general point in there somewhere that the quality of life for early agricultural societies sucked in comparison to hunter gatherers. Lots of continuous hard work, lots more disease. Lots of children (unpleasant and dangerous for the mothers), high child mortality. That alone makes the situation in the OP somewhat unstable. I can't help thinking it might have been more interesting if the roles were somewhat reversed...
      $endgroup$
      – Starfish Prime
      6 hours ago










    • $begingroup$
      (but anyway; +1 for pointing out that agrarian civilisations can end up with surplus people for dedication to things like warfare and religion in a way that nomads generally cannot)
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      – Starfish Prime
      6 hours ago



















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    The Women Are Amazing Warriors



    Every female is trained from a young age to be a warrior. They are strong and have an organized military system, like Gengis Khan's:
    There's a group of ten soldiers in which the leader was chosen by vote,
    There's a group of ten groups of ten soldiers with 100 women in which the leader was chosen by vote,
    There's a group of ten groups of ten groups of soldiers with 1000 women in which the leader was chosen by the leader of the clan.
    Of course, as you said they are small clans, you can make the number of soldiers of each group lower, but this is up to you.






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      5 Answers
      5






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      5 Answers
      5






      active

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      active

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      5












      $begingroup$

      Three pieces of tech that have been protecting humans from other humans for 5000 years.




      1. Hill forts.


      Fortified villages.



      https://www.thefield.co.uk/features/iron-age-hillforts-21556



      The women live on fortified hills. They can see people coming from a distance and they watch. It is a costly endeavor to try to storm one of these hill forts because the women are good shots and they have a lot of arrows. And poison.




      1. Dogs.


      wild dogs
      These semi-feral dogs live in the fields around the fort. The women encourage them and feed them, sometimes. The dogs keep out herbivores. They also keep out men.



      3. Better the devil you know...



      The men are no dopes. When it comes breeding time, they know what is up. A band of men will stake out territory in the countryside around a given hill fort. If some other band shows up to get in position, they will have to fight for it. The local band is a known quantities to the women, and these locals do not want to screw up the good thing they have going. They are going to respect the ladies and their system and in turn they get let inside the walls once a year. Random dudes in the hinterlands are out of luck.



      If a serious band of marauders does show up and overpower the local band, surviving men will head for the hill fort. They have to get past the dogs, but if a couple of the regular guys show up with their tails between their legs, the women will know to light the fires and get ready.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$









      • 1




        $begingroup$
        +1 just for pointing out that men would lay claim to clans. Kinda like lions and their prides. In fact, this symbiotic relationship would be almost culturally unavoidable.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        8 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        I like the dogs idea, but the issue there is that you need a decent supply of meat to keep your dogs in good condition, and that places certain requirements on the sorts of farming, fishing or trade that the female population need to engage in. I suspect that chariots or cavalry would be somewhat anachronistic given the "ancient world" requirement, alas, and there aren't too many dangerous, domesticable herbivores about.
        $endgroup$
        – Starfish Prime
        6 hours ago
















      5












      $begingroup$

      Three pieces of tech that have been protecting humans from other humans for 5000 years.




      1. Hill forts.


      Fortified villages.



      https://www.thefield.co.uk/features/iron-age-hillforts-21556



      The women live on fortified hills. They can see people coming from a distance and they watch. It is a costly endeavor to try to storm one of these hill forts because the women are good shots and they have a lot of arrows. And poison.




      1. Dogs.


      wild dogs
      These semi-feral dogs live in the fields around the fort. The women encourage them and feed them, sometimes. The dogs keep out herbivores. They also keep out men.



      3. Better the devil you know...



      The men are no dopes. When it comes breeding time, they know what is up. A band of men will stake out territory in the countryside around a given hill fort. If some other band shows up to get in position, they will have to fight for it. The local band is a known quantities to the women, and these locals do not want to screw up the good thing they have going. They are going to respect the ladies and their system and in turn they get let inside the walls once a year. Random dudes in the hinterlands are out of luck.



      If a serious band of marauders does show up and overpower the local band, surviving men will head for the hill fort. They have to get past the dogs, but if a couple of the regular guys show up with their tails between their legs, the women will know to light the fires and get ready.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$









      • 1




        $begingroup$
        +1 just for pointing out that men would lay claim to clans. Kinda like lions and their prides. In fact, this symbiotic relationship would be almost culturally unavoidable.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        8 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        I like the dogs idea, but the issue there is that you need a decent supply of meat to keep your dogs in good condition, and that places certain requirements on the sorts of farming, fishing or trade that the female population need to engage in. I suspect that chariots or cavalry would be somewhat anachronistic given the "ancient world" requirement, alas, and there aren't too many dangerous, domesticable herbivores about.
        $endgroup$
        – Starfish Prime
        6 hours ago














      5












      5








      5





      $begingroup$

      Three pieces of tech that have been protecting humans from other humans for 5000 years.




      1. Hill forts.


      Fortified villages.



      https://www.thefield.co.uk/features/iron-age-hillforts-21556



      The women live on fortified hills. They can see people coming from a distance and they watch. It is a costly endeavor to try to storm one of these hill forts because the women are good shots and they have a lot of arrows. And poison.




      1. Dogs.


      wild dogs
      These semi-feral dogs live in the fields around the fort. The women encourage them and feed them, sometimes. The dogs keep out herbivores. They also keep out men.



      3. Better the devil you know...



      The men are no dopes. When it comes breeding time, they know what is up. A band of men will stake out territory in the countryside around a given hill fort. If some other band shows up to get in position, they will have to fight for it. The local band is a known quantities to the women, and these locals do not want to screw up the good thing they have going. They are going to respect the ladies and their system and in turn they get let inside the walls once a year. Random dudes in the hinterlands are out of luck.



      If a serious band of marauders does show up and overpower the local band, surviving men will head for the hill fort. They have to get past the dogs, but if a couple of the regular guys show up with their tails between their legs, the women will know to light the fires and get ready.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      Three pieces of tech that have been protecting humans from other humans for 5000 years.




      1. Hill forts.


      Fortified villages.



      https://www.thefield.co.uk/features/iron-age-hillforts-21556



      The women live on fortified hills. They can see people coming from a distance and they watch. It is a costly endeavor to try to storm one of these hill forts because the women are good shots and they have a lot of arrows. And poison.




      1. Dogs.


      wild dogs
      These semi-feral dogs live in the fields around the fort. The women encourage them and feed them, sometimes. The dogs keep out herbivores. They also keep out men.



      3. Better the devil you know...



      The men are no dopes. When it comes breeding time, they know what is up. A band of men will stake out territory in the countryside around a given hill fort. If some other band shows up to get in position, they will have to fight for it. The local band is a known quantities to the women, and these locals do not want to screw up the good thing they have going. They are going to respect the ladies and their system and in turn they get let inside the walls once a year. Random dudes in the hinterlands are out of luck.



      If a serious band of marauders does show up and overpower the local band, surviving men will head for the hill fort. They have to get past the dogs, but if a couple of the regular guys show up with their tails between their legs, the women will know to light the fires and get ready.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 8 hours ago









      WillkWillk

      126k30232526




      126k30232526








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        +1 just for pointing out that men would lay claim to clans. Kinda like lions and their prides. In fact, this symbiotic relationship would be almost culturally unavoidable.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        8 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        I like the dogs idea, but the issue there is that you need a decent supply of meat to keep your dogs in good condition, and that places certain requirements on the sorts of farming, fishing or trade that the female population need to engage in. I suspect that chariots or cavalry would be somewhat anachronistic given the "ancient world" requirement, alas, and there aren't too many dangerous, domesticable herbivores about.
        $endgroup$
        – Starfish Prime
        6 hours ago














      • 1




        $begingroup$
        +1 just for pointing out that men would lay claim to clans. Kinda like lions and their prides. In fact, this symbiotic relationship would be almost culturally unavoidable.
        $endgroup$
        – JBH
        8 hours ago












      • $begingroup$
        I like the dogs idea, but the issue there is that you need a decent supply of meat to keep your dogs in good condition, and that places certain requirements on the sorts of farming, fishing or trade that the female population need to engage in. I suspect that chariots or cavalry would be somewhat anachronistic given the "ancient world" requirement, alas, and there aren't too many dangerous, domesticable herbivores about.
        $endgroup$
        – Starfish Prime
        6 hours ago








      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      +1 just for pointing out that men would lay claim to clans. Kinda like lions and their prides. In fact, this symbiotic relationship would be almost culturally unavoidable.
      $endgroup$
      – JBH
      8 hours ago






      $begingroup$
      +1 just for pointing out that men would lay claim to clans. Kinda like lions and their prides. In fact, this symbiotic relationship would be almost culturally unavoidable.
      $endgroup$
      – JBH
      8 hours ago














      $begingroup$
      I like the dogs idea, but the issue there is that you need a decent supply of meat to keep your dogs in good condition, and that places certain requirements on the sorts of farming, fishing or trade that the female population need to engage in. I suspect that chariots or cavalry would be somewhat anachronistic given the "ancient world" requirement, alas, and there aren't too many dangerous, domesticable herbivores about.
      $endgroup$
      – Starfish Prime
      6 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      I like the dogs idea, but the issue there is that you need a decent supply of meat to keep your dogs in good condition, and that places certain requirements on the sorts of farming, fishing or trade that the female population need to engage in. I suspect that chariots or cavalry would be somewhat anachronistic given the "ancient world" requirement, alas, and there aren't too many dangerous, domesticable herbivores about.
      $endgroup$
      – Starfish Prime
      6 hours ago











      1












      $begingroup$

      The way you describe them sounds like this is a hard-wired, bred-in bioevolutionary situation.



      I would posit that the females of this race, being left otherwise defenseless, will do what females must. They will be their own warriors, their own hunters, their own watchmen, their own scouts.



      I would suspect that because of their biology and their social wiring, males have no interest in females except during the mating season. Once the girls' pheromones wear off and pregnancies are ensured, that's the last they'll see of their boyos until next time. It may be that, perhaps unknown to the females, their males kind of look after them from a distance. They may not live in one community, but these associations of males may wander from place to place in a broad territory that encompasses the smaller territories of their females.






      share|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        1












        $begingroup$

        The way you describe them sounds like this is a hard-wired, bred-in bioevolutionary situation.



        I would posit that the females of this race, being left otherwise defenseless, will do what females must. They will be their own warriors, their own hunters, their own watchmen, their own scouts.



        I would suspect that because of their biology and their social wiring, males have no interest in females except during the mating season. Once the girls' pheromones wear off and pregnancies are ensured, that's the last they'll see of their boyos until next time. It may be that, perhaps unknown to the females, their males kind of look after them from a distance. They may not live in one community, but these associations of males may wander from place to place in a broad territory that encompasses the smaller territories of their females.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          The way you describe them sounds like this is a hard-wired, bred-in bioevolutionary situation.



          I would posit that the females of this race, being left otherwise defenseless, will do what females must. They will be their own warriors, their own hunters, their own watchmen, their own scouts.



          I would suspect that because of their biology and their social wiring, males have no interest in females except during the mating season. Once the girls' pheromones wear off and pregnancies are ensured, that's the last they'll see of their boyos until next time. It may be that, perhaps unknown to the females, their males kind of look after them from a distance. They may not live in one community, but these associations of males may wander from place to place in a broad territory that encompasses the smaller territories of their females.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          The way you describe them sounds like this is a hard-wired, bred-in bioevolutionary situation.



          I would posit that the females of this race, being left otherwise defenseless, will do what females must. They will be their own warriors, their own hunters, their own watchmen, their own scouts.



          I would suspect that because of their biology and their social wiring, males have no interest in females except during the mating season. Once the girls' pheromones wear off and pregnancies are ensured, that's the last they'll see of their boyos until next time. It may be that, perhaps unknown to the females, their males kind of look after them from a distance. They may not live in one community, but these associations of males may wander from place to place in a broad territory that encompasses the smaller territories of their females.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 8 hours ago









          elemtilaselemtilas

          16.7k23472




          16.7k23472























              1












              $begingroup$

              If we assume that we are speaking about humans or a sufficiently similar species, I can imagine one way that can be achieved comparatively easily.



              Whether you want to implement it would depend on the degree of cynicism and brutality you want to have in your setting.



              It's a primitive, but a pretty effective practice of population control that archaic societies actually often employed - castration. It's pretty horrific, but not much more then female circumcision that is still practiced in some regions.



              The eunuchs would then stay in the female villages, and the proportion of villagers to rowing males would be quite far from natural 1:1. The precise proportion of men who are cut to those who are left whole can also be different, depending on the result you want. If you want the maximum genetic diversity with the minimal number of males, they would banish the firstborn son of every woman at puberty and cut all subsequent ones.



              The cultural attitude to such practice and the attitude of eunuchs themselves can also be quite different. On one end of the spectrum, they can be treated as property and traded between clans (as women sometimes were, historically) - then you may have a pretty disgruntled portion of population. On the other end, especially if property and status are family matter and not individual, they can stay with their mothers and sisters, working to improve the position of the family and getting privileges from that themselves. In that case, eunuchs can actually count themselves more lucky then those 'whole' males that were banished to the wild lands in puberty. In that case, most of the people in this society won't even think there's anything obviously wrong in their arrangement.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                I was going to suggest a more surreptitious poison'n'backstab approach whereby the wrong kind of men tended to get culled from the flock by cunning rather than outright violence, but this idea is much better.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago
















              1












              $begingroup$

              If we assume that we are speaking about humans or a sufficiently similar species, I can imagine one way that can be achieved comparatively easily.



              Whether you want to implement it would depend on the degree of cynicism and brutality you want to have in your setting.



              It's a primitive, but a pretty effective practice of population control that archaic societies actually often employed - castration. It's pretty horrific, but not much more then female circumcision that is still practiced in some regions.



              The eunuchs would then stay in the female villages, and the proportion of villagers to rowing males would be quite far from natural 1:1. The precise proportion of men who are cut to those who are left whole can also be different, depending on the result you want. If you want the maximum genetic diversity with the minimal number of males, they would banish the firstborn son of every woman at puberty and cut all subsequent ones.



              The cultural attitude to such practice and the attitude of eunuchs themselves can also be quite different. On one end of the spectrum, they can be treated as property and traded between clans (as women sometimes were, historically) - then you may have a pretty disgruntled portion of population. On the other end, especially if property and status are family matter and not individual, they can stay with their mothers and sisters, working to improve the position of the family and getting privileges from that themselves. In that case, eunuchs can actually count themselves more lucky then those 'whole' males that were banished to the wild lands in puberty. In that case, most of the people in this society won't even think there's anything obviously wrong in their arrangement.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                I was going to suggest a more surreptitious poison'n'backstab approach whereby the wrong kind of men tended to get culled from the flock by cunning rather than outright violence, but this idea is much better.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago














              1












              1








              1





              $begingroup$

              If we assume that we are speaking about humans or a sufficiently similar species, I can imagine one way that can be achieved comparatively easily.



              Whether you want to implement it would depend on the degree of cynicism and brutality you want to have in your setting.



              It's a primitive, but a pretty effective practice of population control that archaic societies actually often employed - castration. It's pretty horrific, but not much more then female circumcision that is still practiced in some regions.



              The eunuchs would then stay in the female villages, and the proportion of villagers to rowing males would be quite far from natural 1:1. The precise proportion of men who are cut to those who are left whole can also be different, depending on the result you want. If you want the maximum genetic diversity with the minimal number of males, they would banish the firstborn son of every woman at puberty and cut all subsequent ones.



              The cultural attitude to such practice and the attitude of eunuchs themselves can also be quite different. On one end of the spectrum, they can be treated as property and traded between clans (as women sometimes were, historically) - then you may have a pretty disgruntled portion of population. On the other end, especially if property and status are family matter and not individual, they can stay with their mothers and sisters, working to improve the position of the family and getting privileges from that themselves. In that case, eunuchs can actually count themselves more lucky then those 'whole' males that were banished to the wild lands in puberty. In that case, most of the people in this society won't even think there's anything obviously wrong in their arrangement.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              If we assume that we are speaking about humans or a sufficiently similar species, I can imagine one way that can be achieved comparatively easily.



              Whether you want to implement it would depend on the degree of cynicism and brutality you want to have in your setting.



              It's a primitive, but a pretty effective practice of population control that archaic societies actually often employed - castration. It's pretty horrific, but not much more then female circumcision that is still practiced in some regions.



              The eunuchs would then stay in the female villages, and the proportion of villagers to rowing males would be quite far from natural 1:1. The precise proportion of men who are cut to those who are left whole can also be different, depending on the result you want. If you want the maximum genetic diversity with the minimal number of males, they would banish the firstborn son of every woman at puberty and cut all subsequent ones.



              The cultural attitude to such practice and the attitude of eunuchs themselves can also be quite different. On one end of the spectrum, they can be treated as property and traded between clans (as women sometimes were, historically) - then you may have a pretty disgruntled portion of population. On the other end, especially if property and status are family matter and not individual, they can stay with their mothers and sisters, working to improve the position of the family and getting privileges from that themselves. In that case, eunuchs can actually count themselves more lucky then those 'whole' males that were banished to the wild lands in puberty. In that case, most of the people in this society won't even think there's anything obviously wrong in their arrangement.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 7 hours ago









              CumehtarCumehtar

              3,810628




              3,810628












              • $begingroup$
                I was going to suggest a more surreptitious poison'n'backstab approach whereby the wrong kind of men tended to get culled from the flock by cunning rather than outright violence, but this idea is much better.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago


















              • $begingroup$
                I was going to suggest a more surreptitious poison'n'backstab approach whereby the wrong kind of men tended to get culled from the flock by cunning rather than outright violence, but this idea is much better.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago
















              $begingroup$
              I was going to suggest a more surreptitious poison'n'backstab approach whereby the wrong kind of men tended to get culled from the flock by cunning rather than outright violence, but this idea is much better.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              I was going to suggest a more surreptitious poison'n'backstab approach whereby the wrong kind of men tended to get culled from the flock by cunning rather than outright violence, but this idea is much better.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago











              1












              $begingroup$

              Assuming that (1) we are speaking about humans and (2) by "ancient world" we are to understand the historical ancient world, that is, no pre-historical hunter-gatherers, then the way of life described in the question can be made stable over the long term, but probably not as the querent envisioned it.



              The problem comes from the huge disparity between the population densities of a settled agricultural society and a dispersed hunter-gatherer society.



              Since the question speaks about the ancient world we must assume that the matriarchal clans are settled in villages or towns and practice some sort of agriculture. This enables them to reach reasonably high densities and total numbers of inhabitants. But then the question says that boys are expelled at 12 or 14 years of age (when they "reach adulthood" according to ancient conventions) and go to live from hunting and gathering. This has the immediate consequence that most men die young, and thus in the world of the question there are many more women than men. And those males who don't die young must by necessity live in very small groups scattered far and wide, for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations.



              Moreover, the hunting and gathering men cannot possibly be "seasoned warriors". Fierce brawlers, yes, quite possibly. Fearless fighters, acceptable. Seasoned warriors, nope. War as practiced by half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians is simply not at the same level as war practiced by civilized settled societies.



              So in the end the civilized women can easily fend off attacks by the barbarian men. Women have numbers on their side, they have actual military formations and tactics and discipline, and they have fortifications. How do I know that they have fortifications? Because everybody had fortifications in the antiquity. Even a ditch and an earthen rampart, what the Romans called a vallum, are force multipliers. (Fun note: the English word "wall" comes from Latin vallum, an earthen fortitication consisting of a ditch and rampart. A proper wall is murus in Latin.)



              All right, so the barbarian men are too few, too dispersed and too barbarian to pose a significant threat to the civilized women. What can be done to make them more fearsome, while preserving as much as possible from the premiss of the question?



              Simple. Ditch hunting and living of the land and make them nomadic pastoralists.



              Nomadic pastoralism was indeed a well recognized way of life in the antiquity, and not only. Some cultures, for example the Lapps and the Mongolians, preserved it well into the modern age.



              Make the sexual division of labor in this world more pervasive than in our real history: have the women labor the land and grow crops, while men roam the wide plains with their herds in search of pasture.



              Such an approach would naturally lead to the conflict between tribes of nomadic pastoralists, reminiscent of the range wars known from American westerns; it would also naturally lead to conflict between free-roaming open-range pastoralists and the settled crop-growing women.




              • But in this case, wouldn't women (smaller, physically weaker, etc. stereotypes) be certain to lose? No. The settled women would still have an advantage in numbers, albeit smaller than in the case of confronting scattered hunter-gatherers; they would still have an advantage in culture and discipline; they would still have fortifications.


              • But didn't the nomadic pastoralists Mongols conquer the world? Well, they did indeed conquer a lot of land, which then they promptly lost. We will never know what would have happened in the end if the Mongols had persisted in their invasion of Europe; I for one think that they would have been beaten even if they had not decided on their own to abandon the attempt. Anyway, better to have those feminine settlements be somewhere not in the featureless boundless steppe.



              Nitpicks:




              • "Breeding season": humans do not have a breeding season. Better make the sexual congress take place in the autumn, after the crops are gathered and everybody feasts.


              • "Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans": and what's keeping the settled towns from banding together to defend their lands? That's the ancient and time tested response to external threats: form a confederacy, a kingdom, an empire. The plucky warlord will realize that what he has done is piss off the mighty Empress of the Fertile Valleys. The bards sing to this day the heroic feats of arms seen in the epic battles.







              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                "half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians" oh, come on now. You should know better than that. "the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations" by which you mean usually does not support dense populations. The people of the pacific northwest did extremely well for themselves, for example.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: I have no idea how well the people of the peaceful northwest did. I don't even know who those people were. Link please, even to WIkipedia? (My knowledge of things American is rather limited, and what little there is is shamefully out of date: but I am curious and willing to read.) (And when the question asks for the "ancient world" I naturally think of the Old World.)
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Huh. I was not expecting that response, and am slightly unprepared for it ;-) The matter is a complex one, and the wikipedia link is basically an index rather than an informative overview, and I don't have any other good resources off the top of my head. As a very, very brief summary: the amount of food that could be obtained by hunting and gathering there allowed for unusually large permanent settlements and a quite elaborate culture.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                There's a more general point in there somewhere that the quality of life for early agricultural societies sucked in comparison to hunter gatherers. Lots of continuous hard work, lots more disease. Lots of children (unpleasant and dangerous for the mothers), high child mortality. That alone makes the situation in the OP somewhat unstable. I can't help thinking it might have been more interesting if the roles were somewhat reversed...
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                (but anyway; +1 for pointing out that agrarian civilisations can end up with surplus people for dedication to things like warfare and religion in a way that nomads generally cannot)
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago
















              1












              $begingroup$

              Assuming that (1) we are speaking about humans and (2) by "ancient world" we are to understand the historical ancient world, that is, no pre-historical hunter-gatherers, then the way of life described in the question can be made stable over the long term, but probably not as the querent envisioned it.



              The problem comes from the huge disparity between the population densities of a settled agricultural society and a dispersed hunter-gatherer society.



              Since the question speaks about the ancient world we must assume that the matriarchal clans are settled in villages or towns and practice some sort of agriculture. This enables them to reach reasonably high densities and total numbers of inhabitants. But then the question says that boys are expelled at 12 or 14 years of age (when they "reach adulthood" according to ancient conventions) and go to live from hunting and gathering. This has the immediate consequence that most men die young, and thus in the world of the question there are many more women than men. And those males who don't die young must by necessity live in very small groups scattered far and wide, for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations.



              Moreover, the hunting and gathering men cannot possibly be "seasoned warriors". Fierce brawlers, yes, quite possibly. Fearless fighters, acceptable. Seasoned warriors, nope. War as practiced by half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians is simply not at the same level as war practiced by civilized settled societies.



              So in the end the civilized women can easily fend off attacks by the barbarian men. Women have numbers on their side, they have actual military formations and tactics and discipline, and they have fortifications. How do I know that they have fortifications? Because everybody had fortifications in the antiquity. Even a ditch and an earthen rampart, what the Romans called a vallum, are force multipliers. (Fun note: the English word "wall" comes from Latin vallum, an earthen fortitication consisting of a ditch and rampart. A proper wall is murus in Latin.)



              All right, so the barbarian men are too few, too dispersed and too barbarian to pose a significant threat to the civilized women. What can be done to make them more fearsome, while preserving as much as possible from the premiss of the question?



              Simple. Ditch hunting and living of the land and make them nomadic pastoralists.



              Nomadic pastoralism was indeed a well recognized way of life in the antiquity, and not only. Some cultures, for example the Lapps and the Mongolians, preserved it well into the modern age.



              Make the sexual division of labor in this world more pervasive than in our real history: have the women labor the land and grow crops, while men roam the wide plains with their herds in search of pasture.



              Such an approach would naturally lead to the conflict between tribes of nomadic pastoralists, reminiscent of the range wars known from American westerns; it would also naturally lead to conflict between free-roaming open-range pastoralists and the settled crop-growing women.




              • But in this case, wouldn't women (smaller, physically weaker, etc. stereotypes) be certain to lose? No. The settled women would still have an advantage in numbers, albeit smaller than in the case of confronting scattered hunter-gatherers; they would still have an advantage in culture and discipline; they would still have fortifications.


              • But didn't the nomadic pastoralists Mongols conquer the world? Well, they did indeed conquer a lot of land, which then they promptly lost. We will never know what would have happened in the end if the Mongols had persisted in their invasion of Europe; I for one think that they would have been beaten even if they had not decided on their own to abandon the attempt. Anyway, better to have those feminine settlements be somewhere not in the featureless boundless steppe.



              Nitpicks:




              • "Breeding season": humans do not have a breeding season. Better make the sexual congress take place in the autumn, after the crops are gathered and everybody feasts.


              • "Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans": and what's keeping the settled towns from banding together to defend their lands? That's the ancient and time tested response to external threats: form a confederacy, a kingdom, an empire. The plucky warlord will realize that what he has done is piss off the mighty Empress of the Fertile Valleys. The bards sing to this day the heroic feats of arms seen in the epic battles.







              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                "half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians" oh, come on now. You should know better than that. "the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations" by which you mean usually does not support dense populations. The people of the pacific northwest did extremely well for themselves, for example.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: I have no idea how well the people of the peaceful northwest did. I don't even know who those people were. Link please, even to WIkipedia? (My knowledge of things American is rather limited, and what little there is is shamefully out of date: but I am curious and willing to read.) (And when the question asks for the "ancient world" I naturally think of the Old World.)
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Huh. I was not expecting that response, and am slightly unprepared for it ;-) The matter is a complex one, and the wikipedia link is basically an index rather than an informative overview, and I don't have any other good resources off the top of my head. As a very, very brief summary: the amount of food that could be obtained by hunting and gathering there allowed for unusually large permanent settlements and a quite elaborate culture.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                There's a more general point in there somewhere that the quality of life for early agricultural societies sucked in comparison to hunter gatherers. Lots of continuous hard work, lots more disease. Lots of children (unpleasant and dangerous for the mothers), high child mortality. That alone makes the situation in the OP somewhat unstable. I can't help thinking it might have been more interesting if the roles were somewhat reversed...
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                (but anyway; +1 for pointing out that agrarian civilisations can end up with surplus people for dedication to things like warfare and religion in a way that nomads generally cannot)
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago














              1












              1








              1





              $begingroup$

              Assuming that (1) we are speaking about humans and (2) by "ancient world" we are to understand the historical ancient world, that is, no pre-historical hunter-gatherers, then the way of life described in the question can be made stable over the long term, but probably not as the querent envisioned it.



              The problem comes from the huge disparity between the population densities of a settled agricultural society and a dispersed hunter-gatherer society.



              Since the question speaks about the ancient world we must assume that the matriarchal clans are settled in villages or towns and practice some sort of agriculture. This enables them to reach reasonably high densities and total numbers of inhabitants. But then the question says that boys are expelled at 12 or 14 years of age (when they "reach adulthood" according to ancient conventions) and go to live from hunting and gathering. This has the immediate consequence that most men die young, and thus in the world of the question there are many more women than men. And those males who don't die young must by necessity live in very small groups scattered far and wide, for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations.



              Moreover, the hunting and gathering men cannot possibly be "seasoned warriors". Fierce brawlers, yes, quite possibly. Fearless fighters, acceptable. Seasoned warriors, nope. War as practiced by half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians is simply not at the same level as war practiced by civilized settled societies.



              So in the end the civilized women can easily fend off attacks by the barbarian men. Women have numbers on their side, they have actual military formations and tactics and discipline, and they have fortifications. How do I know that they have fortifications? Because everybody had fortifications in the antiquity. Even a ditch and an earthen rampart, what the Romans called a vallum, are force multipliers. (Fun note: the English word "wall" comes from Latin vallum, an earthen fortitication consisting of a ditch and rampart. A proper wall is murus in Latin.)



              All right, so the barbarian men are too few, too dispersed and too barbarian to pose a significant threat to the civilized women. What can be done to make them more fearsome, while preserving as much as possible from the premiss of the question?



              Simple. Ditch hunting and living of the land and make them nomadic pastoralists.



              Nomadic pastoralism was indeed a well recognized way of life in the antiquity, and not only. Some cultures, for example the Lapps and the Mongolians, preserved it well into the modern age.



              Make the sexual division of labor in this world more pervasive than in our real history: have the women labor the land and grow crops, while men roam the wide plains with their herds in search of pasture.



              Such an approach would naturally lead to the conflict between tribes of nomadic pastoralists, reminiscent of the range wars known from American westerns; it would also naturally lead to conflict between free-roaming open-range pastoralists and the settled crop-growing women.




              • But in this case, wouldn't women (smaller, physically weaker, etc. stereotypes) be certain to lose? No. The settled women would still have an advantage in numbers, albeit smaller than in the case of confronting scattered hunter-gatherers; they would still have an advantage in culture and discipline; they would still have fortifications.


              • But didn't the nomadic pastoralists Mongols conquer the world? Well, they did indeed conquer a lot of land, which then they promptly lost. We will never know what would have happened in the end if the Mongols had persisted in their invasion of Europe; I for one think that they would have been beaten even if they had not decided on their own to abandon the attempt. Anyway, better to have those feminine settlements be somewhere not in the featureless boundless steppe.



              Nitpicks:




              • "Breeding season": humans do not have a breeding season. Better make the sexual congress take place in the autumn, after the crops are gathered and everybody feasts.


              • "Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans": and what's keeping the settled towns from banding together to defend their lands? That's the ancient and time tested response to external threats: form a confederacy, a kingdom, an empire. The plucky warlord will realize that what he has done is piss off the mighty Empress of the Fertile Valleys. The bards sing to this day the heroic feats of arms seen in the epic battles.







              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Assuming that (1) we are speaking about humans and (2) by "ancient world" we are to understand the historical ancient world, that is, no pre-historical hunter-gatherers, then the way of life described in the question can be made stable over the long term, but probably not as the querent envisioned it.



              The problem comes from the huge disparity between the population densities of a settled agricultural society and a dispersed hunter-gatherer society.



              Since the question speaks about the ancient world we must assume that the matriarchal clans are settled in villages or towns and practice some sort of agriculture. This enables them to reach reasonably high densities and total numbers of inhabitants. But then the question says that boys are expelled at 12 or 14 years of age (when they "reach adulthood" according to ancient conventions) and go to live from hunting and gathering. This has the immediate consequence that most men die young, and thus in the world of the question there are many more women than men. And those males who don't die young must by necessity live in very small groups scattered far and wide, for the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations.



              Moreover, the hunting and gathering men cannot possibly be "seasoned warriors". Fierce brawlers, yes, quite possibly. Fearless fighters, acceptable. Seasoned warriors, nope. War as practiced by half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians is simply not at the same level as war practiced by civilized settled societies.



              So in the end the civilized women can easily fend off attacks by the barbarian men. Women have numbers on their side, they have actual military formations and tactics and discipline, and they have fortifications. How do I know that they have fortifications? Because everybody had fortifications in the antiquity. Even a ditch and an earthen rampart, what the Romans called a vallum, are force multipliers. (Fun note: the English word "wall" comes from Latin vallum, an earthen fortitication consisting of a ditch and rampart. A proper wall is murus in Latin.)



              All right, so the barbarian men are too few, too dispersed and too barbarian to pose a significant threat to the civilized women. What can be done to make them more fearsome, while preserving as much as possible from the premiss of the question?



              Simple. Ditch hunting and living of the land and make them nomadic pastoralists.



              Nomadic pastoralism was indeed a well recognized way of life in the antiquity, and not only. Some cultures, for example the Lapps and the Mongolians, preserved it well into the modern age.



              Make the sexual division of labor in this world more pervasive than in our real history: have the women labor the land and grow crops, while men roam the wide plains with their herds in search of pasture.



              Such an approach would naturally lead to the conflict between tribes of nomadic pastoralists, reminiscent of the range wars known from American westerns; it would also naturally lead to conflict between free-roaming open-range pastoralists and the settled crop-growing women.




              • But in this case, wouldn't women (smaller, physically weaker, etc. stereotypes) be certain to lose? No. The settled women would still have an advantage in numbers, albeit smaller than in the case of confronting scattered hunter-gatherers; they would still have an advantage in culture and discipline; they would still have fortifications.


              • But didn't the nomadic pastoralists Mongols conquer the world? Well, they did indeed conquer a lot of land, which then they promptly lost. We will never know what would have happened in the end if the Mongols had persisted in their invasion of Europe; I for one think that they would have been beaten even if they had not decided on their own to abandon the attempt. Anyway, better to have those feminine settlements be somewhere not in the featureless boundless steppe.



              Nitpicks:




              • "Breeding season": humans do not have a breeding season. Better make the sexual congress take place in the autumn, after the crops are gathered and everybody feasts.


              • "Some warlord may even decide to join forces and bring many bands together to dominate the weaker clans": and what's keeping the settled towns from banding together to defend their lands? That's the ancient and time tested response to external threats: form a confederacy, a kingdom, an empire. The plucky warlord will realize that what he has done is piss off the mighty Empress of the Fertile Valleys. The bards sing to this day the heroic feats of arms seen in the epic battles.








              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 6 hours ago









              AlexPAlexP

              43.6k899172




              43.6k899172












              • $begingroup$
                "half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians" oh, come on now. You should know better than that. "the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations" by which you mean usually does not support dense populations. The people of the pacific northwest did extremely well for themselves, for example.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: I have no idea how well the people of the peaceful northwest did. I don't even know who those people were. Link please, even to WIkipedia? (My knowledge of things American is rather limited, and what little there is is shamefully out of date: but I am curious and willing to read.) (And when the question asks for the "ancient world" I naturally think of the Old World.)
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Huh. I was not expecting that response, and am slightly unprepared for it ;-) The matter is a complex one, and the wikipedia link is basically an index rather than an informative overview, and I don't have any other good resources off the top of my head. As a very, very brief summary: the amount of food that could be obtained by hunting and gathering there allowed for unusually large permanent settlements and a quite elaborate culture.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                There's a more general point in there somewhere that the quality of life for early agricultural societies sucked in comparison to hunter gatherers. Lots of continuous hard work, lots more disease. Lots of children (unpleasant and dangerous for the mothers), high child mortality. That alone makes the situation in the OP somewhat unstable. I can't help thinking it might have been more interesting if the roles were somewhat reversed...
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                (but anyway; +1 for pointing out that agrarian civilisations can end up with surplus people for dedication to things like warfare and religion in a way that nomads generally cannot)
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago


















              • $begingroup$
                "half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians" oh, come on now. You should know better than that. "the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations" by which you mean usually does not support dense populations. The people of the pacific northwest did extremely well for themselves, for example.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                @StarfishPrime: I have no idea how well the people of the peaceful northwest did. I don't even know who those people were. Link please, even to WIkipedia? (My knowledge of things American is rather limited, and what little there is is shamefully out of date: but I am curious and willing to read.) (And when the question asks for the "ancient world" I naturally think of the Old World.)
                $endgroup$
                – AlexP
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                Huh. I was not expecting that response, and am slightly unprepared for it ;-) The matter is a complex one, and the wikipedia link is basically an index rather than an informative overview, and I don't have any other good resources off the top of my head. As a very, very brief summary: the amount of food that could be obtained by hunting and gathering there allowed for unusually large permanent settlements and a quite elaborate culture.
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago












              • $begingroup$
                There's a more general point in there somewhere that the quality of life for early agricultural societies sucked in comparison to hunter gatherers. Lots of continuous hard work, lots more disease. Lots of children (unpleasant and dangerous for the mothers), high child mortality. That alone makes the situation in the OP somewhat unstable. I can't help thinking it might have been more interesting if the roles were somewhat reversed...
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago










              • $begingroup$
                (but anyway; +1 for pointing out that agrarian civilisations can end up with surplus people for dedication to things like warfare and religion in a way that nomads generally cannot)
                $endgroup$
                – Starfish Prime
                6 hours ago
















              $begingroup$
              "half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians" oh, come on now. You should know better than that. "the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations" by which you mean usually does not support dense populations. The people of the pacific northwest did extremely well for themselves, for example.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              "half-starved hunter-gatherer barbarians" oh, come on now. You should know better than that. "the hunter-gatherer lifestyle cannot support dense populations" by which you mean usually does not support dense populations. The people of the pacific northwest did extremely well for themselves, for example.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              @StarfishPrime: I have no idea how well the people of the peaceful northwest did. I don't even know who those people were. Link please, even to WIkipedia? (My knowledge of things American is rather limited, and what little there is is shamefully out of date: but I am curious and willing to read.) (And when the question asks for the "ancient world" I naturally think of the Old World.)
              $endgroup$
              – AlexP
              6 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              @StarfishPrime: I have no idea how well the people of the peaceful northwest did. I don't even know who those people were. Link please, even to WIkipedia? (My knowledge of things American is rather limited, and what little there is is shamefully out of date: but I am curious and willing to read.) (And when the question asks for the "ancient world" I naturally think of the Old World.)
              $endgroup$
              – AlexP
              6 hours ago














              $begingroup$
              Huh. I was not expecting that response, and am slightly unprepared for it ;-) The matter is a complex one, and the wikipedia link is basically an index rather than an informative overview, and I don't have any other good resources off the top of my head. As a very, very brief summary: the amount of food that could be obtained by hunting and gathering there allowed for unusually large permanent settlements and a quite elaborate culture.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago






              $begingroup$
              Huh. I was not expecting that response, and am slightly unprepared for it ;-) The matter is a complex one, and the wikipedia link is basically an index rather than an informative overview, and I don't have any other good resources off the top of my head. As a very, very brief summary: the amount of food that could be obtained by hunting and gathering there allowed for unusually large permanent settlements and a quite elaborate culture.
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago














              $begingroup$
              There's a more general point in there somewhere that the quality of life for early agricultural societies sucked in comparison to hunter gatherers. Lots of continuous hard work, lots more disease. Lots of children (unpleasant and dangerous for the mothers), high child mortality. That alone makes the situation in the OP somewhat unstable. I can't help thinking it might have been more interesting if the roles were somewhat reversed...
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              There's a more general point in there somewhere that the quality of life for early agricultural societies sucked in comparison to hunter gatherers. Lots of continuous hard work, lots more disease. Lots of children (unpleasant and dangerous for the mothers), high child mortality. That alone makes the situation in the OP somewhat unstable. I can't help thinking it might have been more interesting if the roles were somewhat reversed...
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago












              $begingroup$
              (but anyway; +1 for pointing out that agrarian civilisations can end up with surplus people for dedication to things like warfare and religion in a way that nomads generally cannot)
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago




              $begingroup$
              (but anyway; +1 for pointing out that agrarian civilisations can end up with surplus people for dedication to things like warfare and religion in a way that nomads generally cannot)
              $endgroup$
              – Starfish Prime
              6 hours ago











              0












              $begingroup$

              The Women Are Amazing Warriors



              Every female is trained from a young age to be a warrior. They are strong and have an organized military system, like Gengis Khan's:
              There's a group of ten soldiers in which the leader was chosen by vote,
              There's a group of ten groups of ten soldiers with 100 women in which the leader was chosen by vote,
              There's a group of ten groups of ten groups of soldiers with 1000 women in which the leader was chosen by the leader of the clan.
              Of course, as you said they are small clans, you can make the number of soldiers of each group lower, but this is up to you.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                The Women Are Amazing Warriors



                Every female is trained from a young age to be a warrior. They are strong and have an organized military system, like Gengis Khan's:
                There's a group of ten soldiers in which the leader was chosen by vote,
                There's a group of ten groups of ten soldiers with 100 women in which the leader was chosen by vote,
                There's a group of ten groups of ten groups of soldiers with 1000 women in which the leader was chosen by the leader of the clan.
                Of course, as you said they are small clans, you can make the number of soldiers of each group lower, but this is up to you.






                share|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  The Women Are Amazing Warriors



                  Every female is trained from a young age to be a warrior. They are strong and have an organized military system, like Gengis Khan's:
                  There's a group of ten soldiers in which the leader was chosen by vote,
                  There's a group of ten groups of ten soldiers with 100 women in which the leader was chosen by vote,
                  There's a group of ten groups of ten groups of soldiers with 1000 women in which the leader was chosen by the leader of the clan.
                  Of course, as you said they are small clans, you can make the number of soldiers of each group lower, but this is up to you.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  The Women Are Amazing Warriors



                  Every female is trained from a young age to be a warrior. They are strong and have an organized military system, like Gengis Khan's:
                  There's a group of ten soldiers in which the leader was chosen by vote,
                  There's a group of ten groups of ten soldiers with 100 women in which the leader was chosen by vote,
                  There's a group of ten groups of ten groups of soldiers with 1000 women in which the leader was chosen by the leader of the clan.
                  Of course, as you said they are small clans, you can make the number of soldiers of each group lower, but this is up to you.







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 6 hours ago









                  OnixOnix

                  25719




                  25719






























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