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What triggers a nuclear decay?
An explanation of the Spontaneous EmissionNuclear decay rate affected by sun and quantum randomnessIs there no radioactive decay between nuclear fusion and solid material formation?Radioactive decay - What mechanism decides when an unstable nucleus decays?Can an element decay into an infinite loop?Probability of nuclear decay of small staring number of atomsEquation related to the radioactive decay being randomConfusion in Positron DecayProbability of decay of a nucleusWhy are lighter nuclei dominated by $beta$-decay and heavier ones by $alpha$-decay?
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I am not a physicist but I have been wondering about this:
I understand that the decay of a nucleus is a random event and one cannot predict exactly when it will happen for a particular nucleus. What I would like to know is what triggers this event to happen?
nuclear-physics radiation statistics randomness half-life
New contributor
Chris Krause is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am not a physicist but I have been wondering about this:
I understand that the decay of a nucleus is a random event and one cannot predict exactly when it will happen for a particular nucleus. What I would like to know is what triggers this event to happen?
nuclear-physics radiation statistics randomness half-life
New contributor
Chris Krause is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
5
$begingroup$
I assume you're asking about spontaneous radioactive decay, not the induced nuclear fission that happens in nuclear reactors and bombs?
$endgroup$
– probably_someone
2 days ago
4
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Please everyone, no answers in the comment section. Thanks!!
$endgroup$
– AccidentalFourierTransform
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Related question: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/346288/…
$endgroup$
– Lewis Miller
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am not a physicist but I have been wondering about this:
I understand that the decay of a nucleus is a random event and one cannot predict exactly when it will happen for a particular nucleus. What I would like to know is what triggers this event to happen?
nuclear-physics radiation statistics randomness half-life
New contributor
Chris Krause is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
I am not a physicist but I have been wondering about this:
I understand that the decay of a nucleus is a random event and one cannot predict exactly when it will happen for a particular nucleus. What I would like to know is what triggers this event to happen?
nuclear-physics radiation statistics randomness half-life
nuclear-physics radiation statistics randomness half-life
New contributor
Chris Krause is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Chris Krause is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited 1 hour ago
knzhou
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asked 2 days ago
Chris KrauseChris Krause
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674 bronze badges
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Chris Krause is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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Chris Krause is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
5
$begingroup$
I assume you're asking about spontaneous radioactive decay, not the induced nuclear fission that happens in nuclear reactors and bombs?
$endgroup$
– probably_someone
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
Please everyone, no answers in the comment section. Thanks!!
$endgroup$
– AccidentalFourierTransform
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Related question: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/346288/…
$endgroup$
– Lewis Miller
yesterday
add a comment |
5
$begingroup$
I assume you're asking about spontaneous radioactive decay, not the induced nuclear fission that happens in nuclear reactors and bombs?
$endgroup$
– probably_someone
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
Please everyone, no answers in the comment section. Thanks!!
$endgroup$
– AccidentalFourierTransform
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Related question: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/346288/…
$endgroup$
– Lewis Miller
yesterday
5
5
$begingroup$
I assume you're asking about spontaneous radioactive decay, not the induced nuclear fission that happens in nuclear reactors and bombs?
$endgroup$
– probably_someone
2 days ago
$begingroup$
I assume you're asking about spontaneous radioactive decay, not the induced nuclear fission that happens in nuclear reactors and bombs?
$endgroup$
– probably_someone
2 days ago
4
4
$begingroup$
Please everyone, no answers in the comment section. Thanks!!
$endgroup$
– AccidentalFourierTransform
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Please everyone, no answers in the comment section. Thanks!!
$endgroup$
– AccidentalFourierTransform
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Related question: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/346288/…
$endgroup$
– Lewis Miller
yesterday
$begingroup$
Related question: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/346288/…
$endgroup$
– Lewis Miller
yesterday
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
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oldest
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The surprising answer is that nothing triggers it. In quantum mechanics all we can talk about is the probabilities of various events happening: whether they actually happen in a given period is truly random. There is no secret mechanism which we could find which controls whether an event happens or not.
Well, there are, really, three-and-a-half possibilities:
- the first possibility is that there is no secret mechanism, things really are random as I said above;
- the second possibility is that there is some secret mechanism, but the rules of the game say that we could never observe such a mechanism, even in principle;
- the third possibility is that there's not really a mechanism, but somehow there's just a huge list saying what happens when for every event, which list we could also never discover, even in principle;
- the final half possibility are that the experiments which show that one of the preceding three possibilities must be true are incorrect.
I think most physicists think that the first possibility is true, but there are significant minorities who are unhappy with it in various ways. Well, perhaps everyone is unhappy with it, but there is a significant minority who are so unhappy with it that they devote a lot of effort into investigating other options. Einstein, famously, was one of this minority.
Bell's theorem
The core thing here is a famous result called Bell's theorem. What Bell concluded was that
In a theory in which parameters are added to quantum mechanics to determine the results of individual measurements, without changing the statistical predictions, there must be a mechanism whereby the setting of one measuring device can influence the reading of another instrument, however remote. Moreover, the signal involved must propagate instantaneously, so that such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant.
(Bell, 1964 (PDF link), via Wikipedia link above).
What this means is that if we want to explain the predictions of quantum mechanics by what I've called a 'secret mechanism' above, and which physicists call a 'hidden variable', then this mechanism must allow the instantaneous transmission of information between objects, however far separated they are. He then says that 'such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant': how bad is that?
It's bad. What it means is that such a theory is not compatible with special relativity, a theory which has been extremely well tested. In particular it means that if we had access to this secret mechanism, then assuming all the tests we've done of special relativity are not just wrong, we could build a time machine. In particular we could build a time machine which will send information into our own past. And this isn't just some kind of thorectical 'if we could make a black hole we could do this' thing: we could actually build such a thing for a reasonable amount of money (I don't know how much, but let's say for less money than was spent on the Apollo programme). This is very bad, to put it mildly.
So if we aren't willing to accept that this leads to the four options above, which I'll present in a different order.
- Perhaps the experiments which show that the predictions of quantum mechanics are correct are wrong, and we're off the hook. These experiments are really hard to do without loopholes, but all of the experiments done so far have been compatible with what quantum mechanics predicts. I think it's a safe assumption that the predictions made by quantum mechanics are in fact correct.
- Perhaps there is a secret mechanism, but life is arranged so that it can never be observed, even in principle. That's a horrible option I think, and in particular if there is this secret mechanism which can never be observed why not just assume there isn't? Science has to do with things that can be observed (even if such observation is very hard and perhaps beyond our abilities for the forseeable future), not with things that can't, even in principle.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism but things still are not random: everything is just predetermined, and in particular the results of the experiments we do and the choices we make while doing those experiments is all predetermined, so the experiments are meaningless. This is called 'superdeterminism' and, again, it's kind of uninteresting: if it's true then we can't know it is because, well, everything we do is predetermined.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism and things really are random and all we can know is various probabilities.
The last of these is, I think, the standard view, and it's the view that gives rise to my initial statement: nothing triggers the decays, whether or not a decay happens is truly random and all we can know is the probability that it will happen in a given interval.
Entanglement and randomness
Bell's theorem is usually understood to refer to a phenonemon in quantum mechanics called entanglement: this is where measurements on two physically separated objects are correlated, and it turns out that they are correlated in such a way that the awkward options above are the only valid explanations (indeed Bell's theorem itself is the bit of maths that shows that these are the only options).
The reason this matters for atomic decay is that the theory which controls atomic decay is the same: quantum mechanics. So although Bell's theorem deals with entanglement, the theory that predicts entanglement is also the theory that controls atomic decay: if there are hidden variables behind atomic decay which mean it's not random they will be the same hidden variables that Bell's theorem show have such awkward properties if they exist.
It's also the case, I think, that atomic decay should produce particles which are entangled and which therefore should, in principle, be amenable to using as candidates in tests of quantum mechanics. I am not an expert on this so this is somewhat speculative on my part, but in beta decay the results are an electron and an antineutrino (or a positron and a neutrino). Both of these have spin, and I presume that their spins must be entangled (or entangled with each other and the spin of the nucleus which decayed). So in principle you could use these things in tests of entanglement. This is very much in principle because neutrinos are absurdly hard to detect.
Although such an experiment would be extremely hard to do, it would rule out the possibility that there is somehow some completely other, hitherto unknown, theory which controls atomic decay and which does allow prediction of when it happens. I think there are a lot of other reasons why this possibility is implausible: quantum mechanics works superbly well for one thing and we see no trace of any other theory which might apply for another, but such an experiment would conclusively show that it is what governs decay.
Note that Einstein was dead by the time Bell published his theorem: we don't know what he would have said if he had known about it.
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Wouldn't there be another possibility where there is some trigger but we just haven't identified it yet?
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– Mike
2 days ago
4
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@Mike: that's the 'all the experiments which validate the predictions of QM are wrong' case. QM predicts, testably, that such a mechanism ('trigger') must agree with Bell's theorem. So yes, this is a possibility, and that possibility is that QM is wrong.
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– tfb
yesterday
2
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Doesn't this go too far? Op just asked about randomness, but here the discussion veers into the fact that entangled quantum states exist. These things seem orthogonal. The randomness question would be valid in a universe governed by purely classical probabilities and local phenomena. The entanglement question arises because "probabilities" switch to complex-valued, aka "the wave function", which is really a lot more interesting than a real-valued probability distribution.
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– David Tonhofer
yesterday
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@DavidTonhofer: that's a good question. I think I have a good answer to it, and I'm going to add it to the answer: if you want to check it in a few minutes & comment again if you think I'm wrong or confused?
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– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@tfb Sure, but I'm not exactly specialist, neither from the physics or the philosophical side. For the latter, people are even fighting about classical probabilities. I found stat.berkeley.edu/~aldous/157/Papers/probability.pdf (which is ungood, I wanted to do work today)
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– David Tonhofer
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
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If you look at the actual equations governing quantum mechanics, there is no randomness at all. The nucleus starts out in a state where it hasn't decayed. Over time, it evolves into a mixture of the undecayed state and the decayed state. It's like Schrodinger's cat. Gradually the mixture shifts more and more toward decay.
If an observer watches the nucleus to see whether it's decayed yet, then the observer also becomes a mixture of a state in which they have seen it decay and a state in which they haven't. For practical reasons, it's not possible to observe wave interference effects between human-scale objects, so we can't detect interference between the different states of the observer.
Therefore each state of the observer is cut off from the others, and they can't detect each other, it seems to the observer, in that particular state, as if something random has happened. It's then natural for that observer to stop thinking about the other possibilities which, to them, might as well not exist. If they stop keeping track of those other possibilities, they are doing something called the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. The Copenhagen interpretation is an optional add-on to quantum-mechanics.
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That should be "superposition", not "mixture", right? Because superposition is the complex-linear combination of two basis state vectors (both states at the same time for real!), but mixture is the real-valued classical probability mix of two state vectors (one or the other but we don't know which).
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– David Tonhofer
yesterday
add a comment |
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I am surprised that no one has discussed vacuum fluctuations as the trigger for these spontaneous nuclear decays. This question is just the nuclear physics analog of this question: An explanation of the Spontaneous Emission which applies to atomic physics. That spontaneous decays in atomic physics are triggered by vacuum fluctuations of the E&M field is the essence of Wigner-Weisskopf Theory.
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add a comment |
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The short answer is that systems tend to minimise their energy over time. The electrons around an atom will spontaneously drop to the lowest possible energy orbitals. Carbon spontaneously combines with oxygen to form carbon dioxide. Radioactive nuclei lower their energy by decaying.
A ball on the crest of a hill will not spontaneously roll down the hill; it needs some impetus to get itself moving. As soon as you push it, it will quickly roll down, because the position "ball in the valley" has less energy than "ball on top of the hill". But you need to get it moving. With very small things, like nuclei, you don't even need to do that - the nucleus doesn't have a well-defined position or momentum; it's as if the rock in our example could spontaneously move a few inches to the side, or gain a bit of velocity. The rock wouldn't stay on top of the hill for very long.
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This seems like a somewhat misleading classical analogy. Randomness in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with equilibrium, and the Schrodinger equation doesn't say anything about things going to lower energy levels. The Schrodinger equation is symmetric under time-reversal, and it describes absorption of energy on an equal footing with emission.
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– Ben Crowell
2 days ago
2
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This Answer simply begs the question. The OP asks what triggers the decay of a nucleus at one time and not another, and you offer the analogy of a stone that rolls down a hill-- because it spontaneously moved an inch from the peak and o began to roll. Well, then, what triggered that initial movement at one time and not another?
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– Beta
yesterday
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@BenCrowell The classical analogy is also symmetric; and the reason it (almost never) happens in the opposite direction is essentially the same as with the quantum case - though obviously, it's a lot easier for a stable nuclei to absorb e.g. a photon and an antineutrino of just the right energy than for a rock to absorb all of the energy released as it was rolling down the hill; it would be so unlikely for a lock to spontaneously roll back uphill that we can't really expect it would ever happen once in the whole universe.
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– Luaan
yesterday
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@Beta No, I contrast the classical macroscopic phenomenon with what actually happens on the level of e.g. individual nuclei. The crucial distinction is the uncertainty in position and momentum - a rock doesn't spontaneously start rolling down the hill, but if you scaled it small enough, it would (for a narrow enough peak, of course). Of course there's no real macroscopic analogue (though classical waves do share the uncertainty, it's not quite the same kind).
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– Luaan
yesterday
add a comment |
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
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$begingroup$
The surprising answer is that nothing triggers it. In quantum mechanics all we can talk about is the probabilities of various events happening: whether they actually happen in a given period is truly random. There is no secret mechanism which we could find which controls whether an event happens or not.
Well, there are, really, three-and-a-half possibilities:
- the first possibility is that there is no secret mechanism, things really are random as I said above;
- the second possibility is that there is some secret mechanism, but the rules of the game say that we could never observe such a mechanism, even in principle;
- the third possibility is that there's not really a mechanism, but somehow there's just a huge list saying what happens when for every event, which list we could also never discover, even in principle;
- the final half possibility are that the experiments which show that one of the preceding three possibilities must be true are incorrect.
I think most physicists think that the first possibility is true, but there are significant minorities who are unhappy with it in various ways. Well, perhaps everyone is unhappy with it, but there is a significant minority who are so unhappy with it that they devote a lot of effort into investigating other options. Einstein, famously, was one of this minority.
Bell's theorem
The core thing here is a famous result called Bell's theorem. What Bell concluded was that
In a theory in which parameters are added to quantum mechanics to determine the results of individual measurements, without changing the statistical predictions, there must be a mechanism whereby the setting of one measuring device can influence the reading of another instrument, however remote. Moreover, the signal involved must propagate instantaneously, so that such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant.
(Bell, 1964 (PDF link), via Wikipedia link above).
What this means is that if we want to explain the predictions of quantum mechanics by what I've called a 'secret mechanism' above, and which physicists call a 'hidden variable', then this mechanism must allow the instantaneous transmission of information between objects, however far separated they are. He then says that 'such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant': how bad is that?
It's bad. What it means is that such a theory is not compatible with special relativity, a theory which has been extremely well tested. In particular it means that if we had access to this secret mechanism, then assuming all the tests we've done of special relativity are not just wrong, we could build a time machine. In particular we could build a time machine which will send information into our own past. And this isn't just some kind of thorectical 'if we could make a black hole we could do this' thing: we could actually build such a thing for a reasonable amount of money (I don't know how much, but let's say for less money than was spent on the Apollo programme). This is very bad, to put it mildly.
So if we aren't willing to accept that this leads to the four options above, which I'll present in a different order.
- Perhaps the experiments which show that the predictions of quantum mechanics are correct are wrong, and we're off the hook. These experiments are really hard to do without loopholes, but all of the experiments done so far have been compatible with what quantum mechanics predicts. I think it's a safe assumption that the predictions made by quantum mechanics are in fact correct.
- Perhaps there is a secret mechanism, but life is arranged so that it can never be observed, even in principle. That's a horrible option I think, and in particular if there is this secret mechanism which can never be observed why not just assume there isn't? Science has to do with things that can be observed (even if such observation is very hard and perhaps beyond our abilities for the forseeable future), not with things that can't, even in principle.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism but things still are not random: everything is just predetermined, and in particular the results of the experiments we do and the choices we make while doing those experiments is all predetermined, so the experiments are meaningless. This is called 'superdeterminism' and, again, it's kind of uninteresting: if it's true then we can't know it is because, well, everything we do is predetermined.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism and things really are random and all we can know is various probabilities.
The last of these is, I think, the standard view, and it's the view that gives rise to my initial statement: nothing triggers the decays, whether or not a decay happens is truly random and all we can know is the probability that it will happen in a given interval.
Entanglement and randomness
Bell's theorem is usually understood to refer to a phenonemon in quantum mechanics called entanglement: this is where measurements on two physically separated objects are correlated, and it turns out that they are correlated in such a way that the awkward options above are the only valid explanations (indeed Bell's theorem itself is the bit of maths that shows that these are the only options).
The reason this matters for atomic decay is that the theory which controls atomic decay is the same: quantum mechanics. So although Bell's theorem deals with entanglement, the theory that predicts entanglement is also the theory that controls atomic decay: if there are hidden variables behind atomic decay which mean it's not random they will be the same hidden variables that Bell's theorem show have such awkward properties if they exist.
It's also the case, I think, that atomic decay should produce particles which are entangled and which therefore should, in principle, be amenable to using as candidates in tests of quantum mechanics. I am not an expert on this so this is somewhat speculative on my part, but in beta decay the results are an electron and an antineutrino (or a positron and a neutrino). Both of these have spin, and I presume that their spins must be entangled (or entangled with each other and the spin of the nucleus which decayed). So in principle you could use these things in tests of entanglement. This is very much in principle because neutrinos are absurdly hard to detect.
Although such an experiment would be extremely hard to do, it would rule out the possibility that there is somehow some completely other, hitherto unknown, theory which controls atomic decay and which does allow prediction of when it happens. I think there are a lot of other reasons why this possibility is implausible: quantum mechanics works superbly well for one thing and we see no trace of any other theory which might apply for another, but such an experiment would conclusively show that it is what governs decay.
Note that Einstein was dead by the time Bell published his theorem: we don't know what he would have said if he had known about it.
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5
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Wouldn't there be another possibility where there is some trigger but we just haven't identified it yet?
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– Mike
2 days ago
4
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@Mike: that's the 'all the experiments which validate the predictions of QM are wrong' case. QM predicts, testably, that such a mechanism ('trigger') must agree with Bell's theorem. So yes, this is a possibility, and that possibility is that QM is wrong.
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– tfb
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Doesn't this go too far? Op just asked about randomness, but here the discussion veers into the fact that entangled quantum states exist. These things seem orthogonal. The randomness question would be valid in a universe governed by purely classical probabilities and local phenomena. The entanglement question arises because "probabilities" switch to complex-valued, aka "the wave function", which is really a lot more interesting than a real-valued probability distribution.
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
@DavidTonhofer: that's a good question. I think I have a good answer to it, and I'm going to add it to the answer: if you want to check it in a few minutes & comment again if you think I'm wrong or confused?
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@tfb Sure, but I'm not exactly specialist, neither from the physics or the philosophical side. For the latter, people are even fighting about classical probabilities. I found stat.berkeley.edu/~aldous/157/Papers/probability.pdf (which is ungood, I wanted to do work today)
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The surprising answer is that nothing triggers it. In quantum mechanics all we can talk about is the probabilities of various events happening: whether they actually happen in a given period is truly random. There is no secret mechanism which we could find which controls whether an event happens or not.
Well, there are, really, three-and-a-half possibilities:
- the first possibility is that there is no secret mechanism, things really are random as I said above;
- the second possibility is that there is some secret mechanism, but the rules of the game say that we could never observe such a mechanism, even in principle;
- the third possibility is that there's not really a mechanism, but somehow there's just a huge list saying what happens when for every event, which list we could also never discover, even in principle;
- the final half possibility are that the experiments which show that one of the preceding three possibilities must be true are incorrect.
I think most physicists think that the first possibility is true, but there are significant minorities who are unhappy with it in various ways. Well, perhaps everyone is unhappy with it, but there is a significant minority who are so unhappy with it that they devote a lot of effort into investigating other options. Einstein, famously, was one of this minority.
Bell's theorem
The core thing here is a famous result called Bell's theorem. What Bell concluded was that
In a theory in which parameters are added to quantum mechanics to determine the results of individual measurements, without changing the statistical predictions, there must be a mechanism whereby the setting of one measuring device can influence the reading of another instrument, however remote. Moreover, the signal involved must propagate instantaneously, so that such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant.
(Bell, 1964 (PDF link), via Wikipedia link above).
What this means is that if we want to explain the predictions of quantum mechanics by what I've called a 'secret mechanism' above, and which physicists call a 'hidden variable', then this mechanism must allow the instantaneous transmission of information between objects, however far separated they are. He then says that 'such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant': how bad is that?
It's bad. What it means is that such a theory is not compatible with special relativity, a theory which has been extremely well tested. In particular it means that if we had access to this secret mechanism, then assuming all the tests we've done of special relativity are not just wrong, we could build a time machine. In particular we could build a time machine which will send information into our own past. And this isn't just some kind of thorectical 'if we could make a black hole we could do this' thing: we could actually build such a thing for a reasonable amount of money (I don't know how much, but let's say for less money than was spent on the Apollo programme). This is very bad, to put it mildly.
So if we aren't willing to accept that this leads to the four options above, which I'll present in a different order.
- Perhaps the experiments which show that the predictions of quantum mechanics are correct are wrong, and we're off the hook. These experiments are really hard to do without loopholes, but all of the experiments done so far have been compatible with what quantum mechanics predicts. I think it's a safe assumption that the predictions made by quantum mechanics are in fact correct.
- Perhaps there is a secret mechanism, but life is arranged so that it can never be observed, even in principle. That's a horrible option I think, and in particular if there is this secret mechanism which can never be observed why not just assume there isn't? Science has to do with things that can be observed (even if such observation is very hard and perhaps beyond our abilities for the forseeable future), not with things that can't, even in principle.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism but things still are not random: everything is just predetermined, and in particular the results of the experiments we do and the choices we make while doing those experiments is all predetermined, so the experiments are meaningless. This is called 'superdeterminism' and, again, it's kind of uninteresting: if it's true then we can't know it is because, well, everything we do is predetermined.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism and things really are random and all we can know is various probabilities.
The last of these is, I think, the standard view, and it's the view that gives rise to my initial statement: nothing triggers the decays, whether or not a decay happens is truly random and all we can know is the probability that it will happen in a given interval.
Entanglement and randomness
Bell's theorem is usually understood to refer to a phenonemon in quantum mechanics called entanglement: this is where measurements on two physically separated objects are correlated, and it turns out that they are correlated in such a way that the awkward options above are the only valid explanations (indeed Bell's theorem itself is the bit of maths that shows that these are the only options).
The reason this matters for atomic decay is that the theory which controls atomic decay is the same: quantum mechanics. So although Bell's theorem deals with entanglement, the theory that predicts entanglement is also the theory that controls atomic decay: if there are hidden variables behind atomic decay which mean it's not random they will be the same hidden variables that Bell's theorem show have such awkward properties if they exist.
It's also the case, I think, that atomic decay should produce particles which are entangled and which therefore should, in principle, be amenable to using as candidates in tests of quantum mechanics. I am not an expert on this so this is somewhat speculative on my part, but in beta decay the results are an electron and an antineutrino (or a positron and a neutrino). Both of these have spin, and I presume that their spins must be entangled (or entangled with each other and the spin of the nucleus which decayed). So in principle you could use these things in tests of entanglement. This is very much in principle because neutrinos are absurdly hard to detect.
Although such an experiment would be extremely hard to do, it would rule out the possibility that there is somehow some completely other, hitherto unknown, theory which controls atomic decay and which does allow prediction of when it happens. I think there are a lot of other reasons why this possibility is implausible: quantum mechanics works superbly well for one thing and we see no trace of any other theory which might apply for another, but such an experiment would conclusively show that it is what governs decay.
Note that Einstein was dead by the time Bell published his theorem: we don't know what he would have said if he had known about it.
$endgroup$
5
$begingroup$
Wouldn't there be another possibility where there is some trigger but we just haven't identified it yet?
$endgroup$
– Mike
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
@Mike: that's the 'all the experiments which validate the predictions of QM are wrong' case. QM predicts, testably, that such a mechanism ('trigger') must agree with Bell's theorem. So yes, this is a possibility, and that possibility is that QM is wrong.
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Doesn't this go too far? Op just asked about randomness, but here the discussion veers into the fact that entangled quantum states exist. These things seem orthogonal. The randomness question would be valid in a universe governed by purely classical probabilities and local phenomena. The entanglement question arises because "probabilities" switch to complex-valued, aka "the wave function", which is really a lot more interesting than a real-valued probability distribution.
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
@DavidTonhofer: that's a good question. I think I have a good answer to it, and I'm going to add it to the answer: if you want to check it in a few minutes & comment again if you think I'm wrong or confused?
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@tfb Sure, but I'm not exactly specialist, neither from the physics or the philosophical side. For the latter, people are even fighting about classical probabilities. I found stat.berkeley.edu/~aldous/157/Papers/probability.pdf (which is ungood, I wanted to do work today)
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The surprising answer is that nothing triggers it. In quantum mechanics all we can talk about is the probabilities of various events happening: whether they actually happen in a given period is truly random. There is no secret mechanism which we could find which controls whether an event happens or not.
Well, there are, really, three-and-a-half possibilities:
- the first possibility is that there is no secret mechanism, things really are random as I said above;
- the second possibility is that there is some secret mechanism, but the rules of the game say that we could never observe such a mechanism, even in principle;
- the third possibility is that there's not really a mechanism, but somehow there's just a huge list saying what happens when for every event, which list we could also never discover, even in principle;
- the final half possibility are that the experiments which show that one of the preceding three possibilities must be true are incorrect.
I think most physicists think that the first possibility is true, but there are significant minorities who are unhappy with it in various ways. Well, perhaps everyone is unhappy with it, but there is a significant minority who are so unhappy with it that they devote a lot of effort into investigating other options. Einstein, famously, was one of this minority.
Bell's theorem
The core thing here is a famous result called Bell's theorem. What Bell concluded was that
In a theory in which parameters are added to quantum mechanics to determine the results of individual measurements, without changing the statistical predictions, there must be a mechanism whereby the setting of one measuring device can influence the reading of another instrument, however remote. Moreover, the signal involved must propagate instantaneously, so that such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant.
(Bell, 1964 (PDF link), via Wikipedia link above).
What this means is that if we want to explain the predictions of quantum mechanics by what I've called a 'secret mechanism' above, and which physicists call a 'hidden variable', then this mechanism must allow the instantaneous transmission of information between objects, however far separated they are. He then says that 'such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant': how bad is that?
It's bad. What it means is that such a theory is not compatible with special relativity, a theory which has been extremely well tested. In particular it means that if we had access to this secret mechanism, then assuming all the tests we've done of special relativity are not just wrong, we could build a time machine. In particular we could build a time machine which will send information into our own past. And this isn't just some kind of thorectical 'if we could make a black hole we could do this' thing: we could actually build such a thing for a reasonable amount of money (I don't know how much, but let's say for less money than was spent on the Apollo programme). This is very bad, to put it mildly.
So if we aren't willing to accept that this leads to the four options above, which I'll present in a different order.
- Perhaps the experiments which show that the predictions of quantum mechanics are correct are wrong, and we're off the hook. These experiments are really hard to do without loopholes, but all of the experiments done so far have been compatible with what quantum mechanics predicts. I think it's a safe assumption that the predictions made by quantum mechanics are in fact correct.
- Perhaps there is a secret mechanism, but life is arranged so that it can never be observed, even in principle. That's a horrible option I think, and in particular if there is this secret mechanism which can never be observed why not just assume there isn't? Science has to do with things that can be observed (even if such observation is very hard and perhaps beyond our abilities for the forseeable future), not with things that can't, even in principle.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism but things still are not random: everything is just predetermined, and in particular the results of the experiments we do and the choices we make while doing those experiments is all predetermined, so the experiments are meaningless. This is called 'superdeterminism' and, again, it's kind of uninteresting: if it's true then we can't know it is because, well, everything we do is predetermined.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism and things really are random and all we can know is various probabilities.
The last of these is, I think, the standard view, and it's the view that gives rise to my initial statement: nothing triggers the decays, whether or not a decay happens is truly random and all we can know is the probability that it will happen in a given interval.
Entanglement and randomness
Bell's theorem is usually understood to refer to a phenonemon in quantum mechanics called entanglement: this is where measurements on two physically separated objects are correlated, and it turns out that they are correlated in such a way that the awkward options above are the only valid explanations (indeed Bell's theorem itself is the bit of maths that shows that these are the only options).
The reason this matters for atomic decay is that the theory which controls atomic decay is the same: quantum mechanics. So although Bell's theorem deals with entanglement, the theory that predicts entanglement is also the theory that controls atomic decay: if there are hidden variables behind atomic decay which mean it's not random they will be the same hidden variables that Bell's theorem show have such awkward properties if they exist.
It's also the case, I think, that atomic decay should produce particles which are entangled and which therefore should, in principle, be amenable to using as candidates in tests of quantum mechanics. I am not an expert on this so this is somewhat speculative on my part, but in beta decay the results are an electron and an antineutrino (or a positron and a neutrino). Both of these have spin, and I presume that their spins must be entangled (or entangled with each other and the spin of the nucleus which decayed). So in principle you could use these things in tests of entanglement. This is very much in principle because neutrinos are absurdly hard to detect.
Although such an experiment would be extremely hard to do, it would rule out the possibility that there is somehow some completely other, hitherto unknown, theory which controls atomic decay and which does allow prediction of when it happens. I think there are a lot of other reasons why this possibility is implausible: quantum mechanics works superbly well for one thing and we see no trace of any other theory which might apply for another, but such an experiment would conclusively show that it is what governs decay.
Note that Einstein was dead by the time Bell published his theorem: we don't know what he would have said if he had known about it.
$endgroup$
The surprising answer is that nothing triggers it. In quantum mechanics all we can talk about is the probabilities of various events happening: whether they actually happen in a given period is truly random. There is no secret mechanism which we could find which controls whether an event happens or not.
Well, there are, really, three-and-a-half possibilities:
- the first possibility is that there is no secret mechanism, things really are random as I said above;
- the second possibility is that there is some secret mechanism, but the rules of the game say that we could never observe such a mechanism, even in principle;
- the third possibility is that there's not really a mechanism, but somehow there's just a huge list saying what happens when for every event, which list we could also never discover, even in principle;
- the final half possibility are that the experiments which show that one of the preceding three possibilities must be true are incorrect.
I think most physicists think that the first possibility is true, but there are significant minorities who are unhappy with it in various ways. Well, perhaps everyone is unhappy with it, but there is a significant minority who are so unhappy with it that they devote a lot of effort into investigating other options. Einstein, famously, was one of this minority.
Bell's theorem
The core thing here is a famous result called Bell's theorem. What Bell concluded was that
In a theory in which parameters are added to quantum mechanics to determine the results of individual measurements, without changing the statistical predictions, there must be a mechanism whereby the setting of one measuring device can influence the reading of another instrument, however remote. Moreover, the signal involved must propagate instantaneously, so that such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant.
(Bell, 1964 (PDF link), via Wikipedia link above).
What this means is that if we want to explain the predictions of quantum mechanics by what I've called a 'secret mechanism' above, and which physicists call a 'hidden variable', then this mechanism must allow the instantaneous transmission of information between objects, however far separated they are. He then says that 'such a theory could not be Lorentz invariant': how bad is that?
It's bad. What it means is that such a theory is not compatible with special relativity, a theory which has been extremely well tested. In particular it means that if we had access to this secret mechanism, then assuming all the tests we've done of special relativity are not just wrong, we could build a time machine. In particular we could build a time machine which will send information into our own past. And this isn't just some kind of thorectical 'if we could make a black hole we could do this' thing: we could actually build such a thing for a reasonable amount of money (I don't know how much, but let's say for less money than was spent on the Apollo programme). This is very bad, to put it mildly.
So if we aren't willing to accept that this leads to the four options above, which I'll present in a different order.
- Perhaps the experiments which show that the predictions of quantum mechanics are correct are wrong, and we're off the hook. These experiments are really hard to do without loopholes, but all of the experiments done so far have been compatible with what quantum mechanics predicts. I think it's a safe assumption that the predictions made by quantum mechanics are in fact correct.
- Perhaps there is a secret mechanism, but life is arranged so that it can never be observed, even in principle. That's a horrible option I think, and in particular if there is this secret mechanism which can never be observed why not just assume there isn't? Science has to do with things that can be observed (even if such observation is very hard and perhaps beyond our abilities for the forseeable future), not with things that can't, even in principle.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism but things still are not random: everything is just predetermined, and in particular the results of the experiments we do and the choices we make while doing those experiments is all predetermined, so the experiments are meaningless. This is called 'superdeterminism' and, again, it's kind of uninteresting: if it's true then we can't know it is because, well, everything we do is predetermined.
- Perhaps there isn't a mechanism and things really are random and all we can know is various probabilities.
The last of these is, I think, the standard view, and it's the view that gives rise to my initial statement: nothing triggers the decays, whether or not a decay happens is truly random and all we can know is the probability that it will happen in a given interval.
Entanglement and randomness
Bell's theorem is usually understood to refer to a phenonemon in quantum mechanics called entanglement: this is where measurements on two physically separated objects are correlated, and it turns out that they are correlated in such a way that the awkward options above are the only valid explanations (indeed Bell's theorem itself is the bit of maths that shows that these are the only options).
The reason this matters for atomic decay is that the theory which controls atomic decay is the same: quantum mechanics. So although Bell's theorem deals with entanglement, the theory that predicts entanglement is also the theory that controls atomic decay: if there are hidden variables behind atomic decay which mean it's not random they will be the same hidden variables that Bell's theorem show have such awkward properties if they exist.
It's also the case, I think, that atomic decay should produce particles which are entangled and which therefore should, in principle, be amenable to using as candidates in tests of quantum mechanics. I am not an expert on this so this is somewhat speculative on my part, but in beta decay the results are an electron and an antineutrino (or a positron and a neutrino). Both of these have spin, and I presume that their spins must be entangled (or entangled with each other and the spin of the nucleus which decayed). So in principle you could use these things in tests of entanglement. This is very much in principle because neutrinos are absurdly hard to detect.
Although such an experiment would be extremely hard to do, it would rule out the possibility that there is somehow some completely other, hitherto unknown, theory which controls atomic decay and which does allow prediction of when it happens. I think there are a lot of other reasons why this possibility is implausible: quantum mechanics works superbly well for one thing and we see no trace of any other theory which might apply for another, but such an experiment would conclusively show that it is what governs decay.
Note that Einstein was dead by the time Bell published his theorem: we don't know what he would have said if he had known about it.
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago
tfbtfb
19.2k5 gold badges39 silver badges59 bronze badges
19.2k5 gold badges39 silver badges59 bronze badges
5
$begingroup$
Wouldn't there be another possibility where there is some trigger but we just haven't identified it yet?
$endgroup$
– Mike
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
@Mike: that's the 'all the experiments which validate the predictions of QM are wrong' case. QM predicts, testably, that such a mechanism ('trigger') must agree with Bell's theorem. So yes, this is a possibility, and that possibility is that QM is wrong.
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Doesn't this go too far? Op just asked about randomness, but here the discussion veers into the fact that entangled quantum states exist. These things seem orthogonal. The randomness question would be valid in a universe governed by purely classical probabilities and local phenomena. The entanglement question arises because "probabilities" switch to complex-valued, aka "the wave function", which is really a lot more interesting than a real-valued probability distribution.
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
@DavidTonhofer: that's a good question. I think I have a good answer to it, and I'm going to add it to the answer: if you want to check it in a few minutes & comment again if you think I'm wrong or confused?
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@tfb Sure, but I'm not exactly specialist, neither from the physics or the philosophical side. For the latter, people are even fighting about classical probabilities. I found stat.berkeley.edu/~aldous/157/Papers/probability.pdf (which is ungood, I wanted to do work today)
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
5
$begingroup$
Wouldn't there be another possibility where there is some trigger but we just haven't identified it yet?
$endgroup$
– Mike
2 days ago
4
$begingroup$
@Mike: that's the 'all the experiments which validate the predictions of QM are wrong' case. QM predicts, testably, that such a mechanism ('trigger') must agree with Bell's theorem. So yes, this is a possibility, and that possibility is that QM is wrong.
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
2
$begingroup$
Doesn't this go too far? Op just asked about randomness, but here the discussion veers into the fact that entangled quantum states exist. These things seem orthogonal. The randomness question would be valid in a universe governed by purely classical probabilities and local phenomena. The entanglement question arises because "probabilities" switch to complex-valued, aka "the wave function", which is really a lot more interesting than a real-valued probability distribution.
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
@DavidTonhofer: that's a good question. I think I have a good answer to it, and I'm going to add it to the answer: if you want to check it in a few minutes & comment again if you think I'm wrong or confused?
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@tfb Sure, but I'm not exactly specialist, neither from the physics or the philosophical side. For the latter, people are even fighting about classical probabilities. I found stat.berkeley.edu/~aldous/157/Papers/probability.pdf (which is ungood, I wanted to do work today)
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
5
5
$begingroup$
Wouldn't there be another possibility where there is some trigger but we just haven't identified it yet?
$endgroup$
– Mike
2 days ago
$begingroup$
Wouldn't there be another possibility where there is some trigger but we just haven't identified it yet?
$endgroup$
– Mike
2 days ago
4
4
$begingroup$
@Mike: that's the 'all the experiments which validate the predictions of QM are wrong' case. QM predicts, testably, that such a mechanism ('trigger') must agree with Bell's theorem. So yes, this is a possibility, and that possibility is that QM is wrong.
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Mike: that's the 'all the experiments which validate the predictions of QM are wrong' case. QM predicts, testably, that such a mechanism ('trigger') must agree with Bell's theorem. So yes, this is a possibility, and that possibility is that QM is wrong.
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
2
2
$begingroup$
Doesn't this go too far? Op just asked about randomness, but here the discussion veers into the fact that entangled quantum states exist. These things seem orthogonal. The randomness question would be valid in a universe governed by purely classical probabilities and local phenomena. The entanglement question arises because "probabilities" switch to complex-valued, aka "the wave function", which is really a lot more interesting than a real-valued probability distribution.
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
Doesn't this go too far? Op just asked about randomness, but here the discussion veers into the fact that entangled quantum states exist. These things seem orthogonal. The randomness question would be valid in a universe governed by purely classical probabilities and local phenomena. The entanglement question arises because "probabilities" switch to complex-valued, aka "the wave function", which is really a lot more interesting than a real-valued probability distribution.
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
@DavidTonhofer: that's a good question. I think I have a good answer to it, and I'm going to add it to the answer: if you want to check it in a few minutes & comment again if you think I'm wrong or confused?
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@DavidTonhofer: that's a good question. I think I have a good answer to it, and I'm going to add it to the answer: if you want to check it in a few minutes & comment again if you think I'm wrong or confused?
$endgroup$
– tfb
yesterday
$begingroup$
@tfb Sure, but I'm not exactly specialist, neither from the physics or the philosophical side. For the latter, people are even fighting about classical probabilities. I found stat.berkeley.edu/~aldous/157/Papers/probability.pdf (which is ungood, I wanted to do work today)
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
@tfb Sure, but I'm not exactly specialist, neither from the physics or the philosophical side. For the latter, people are even fighting about classical probabilities. I found stat.berkeley.edu/~aldous/157/Papers/probability.pdf (which is ungood, I wanted to do work today)
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
If you look at the actual equations governing quantum mechanics, there is no randomness at all. The nucleus starts out in a state where it hasn't decayed. Over time, it evolves into a mixture of the undecayed state and the decayed state. It's like Schrodinger's cat. Gradually the mixture shifts more and more toward decay.
If an observer watches the nucleus to see whether it's decayed yet, then the observer also becomes a mixture of a state in which they have seen it decay and a state in which they haven't. For practical reasons, it's not possible to observe wave interference effects between human-scale objects, so we can't detect interference between the different states of the observer.
Therefore each state of the observer is cut off from the others, and they can't detect each other, it seems to the observer, in that particular state, as if something random has happened. It's then natural for that observer to stop thinking about the other possibilities which, to them, might as well not exist. If they stop keeping track of those other possibilities, they are doing something called the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. The Copenhagen interpretation is an optional add-on to quantum-mechanics.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That should be "superposition", not "mixture", right? Because superposition is the complex-linear combination of two basis state vectors (both states at the same time for real!), but mixture is the real-valued classical probability mix of two state vectors (one or the other but we don't know which).
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you look at the actual equations governing quantum mechanics, there is no randomness at all. The nucleus starts out in a state where it hasn't decayed. Over time, it evolves into a mixture of the undecayed state and the decayed state. It's like Schrodinger's cat. Gradually the mixture shifts more and more toward decay.
If an observer watches the nucleus to see whether it's decayed yet, then the observer also becomes a mixture of a state in which they have seen it decay and a state in which they haven't. For practical reasons, it's not possible to observe wave interference effects between human-scale objects, so we can't detect interference between the different states of the observer.
Therefore each state of the observer is cut off from the others, and they can't detect each other, it seems to the observer, in that particular state, as if something random has happened. It's then natural for that observer to stop thinking about the other possibilities which, to them, might as well not exist. If they stop keeping track of those other possibilities, they are doing something called the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. The Copenhagen interpretation is an optional add-on to quantum-mechanics.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
That should be "superposition", not "mixture", right? Because superposition is the complex-linear combination of two basis state vectors (both states at the same time for real!), but mixture is the real-valued classical probability mix of two state vectors (one or the other but we don't know which).
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If you look at the actual equations governing quantum mechanics, there is no randomness at all. The nucleus starts out in a state where it hasn't decayed. Over time, it evolves into a mixture of the undecayed state and the decayed state. It's like Schrodinger's cat. Gradually the mixture shifts more and more toward decay.
If an observer watches the nucleus to see whether it's decayed yet, then the observer also becomes a mixture of a state in which they have seen it decay and a state in which they haven't. For practical reasons, it's not possible to observe wave interference effects between human-scale objects, so we can't detect interference between the different states of the observer.
Therefore each state of the observer is cut off from the others, and they can't detect each other, it seems to the observer, in that particular state, as if something random has happened. It's then natural for that observer to stop thinking about the other possibilities which, to them, might as well not exist. If they stop keeping track of those other possibilities, they are doing something called the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. The Copenhagen interpretation is an optional add-on to quantum-mechanics.
$endgroup$
If you look at the actual equations governing quantum mechanics, there is no randomness at all. The nucleus starts out in a state where it hasn't decayed. Over time, it evolves into a mixture of the undecayed state and the decayed state. It's like Schrodinger's cat. Gradually the mixture shifts more and more toward decay.
If an observer watches the nucleus to see whether it's decayed yet, then the observer also becomes a mixture of a state in which they have seen it decay and a state in which they haven't. For practical reasons, it's not possible to observe wave interference effects between human-scale objects, so we can't detect interference between the different states of the observer.
Therefore each state of the observer is cut off from the others, and they can't detect each other, it seems to the observer, in that particular state, as if something random has happened. It's then natural for that observer to stop thinking about the other possibilities which, to them, might as well not exist. If they stop keeping track of those other possibilities, they are doing something called the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. The Copenhagen interpretation is an optional add-on to quantum-mechanics.
answered 2 days ago
Ben CrowellBen Crowell
59.5k6 gold badges176 silver badges337 bronze badges
59.5k6 gold badges176 silver badges337 bronze badges
$begingroup$
That should be "superposition", not "mixture", right? Because superposition is the complex-linear combination of two basis state vectors (both states at the same time for real!), but mixture is the real-valued classical probability mix of two state vectors (one or the other but we don't know which).
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
That should be "superposition", not "mixture", right? Because superposition is the complex-linear combination of two basis state vectors (both states at the same time for real!), but mixture is the real-valued classical probability mix of two state vectors (one or the other but we don't know which).
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
That should be "superposition", not "mixture", right? Because superposition is the complex-linear combination of two basis state vectors (both states at the same time for real!), but mixture is the real-valued classical probability mix of two state vectors (one or the other but we don't know which).
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
$begingroup$
That should be "superposition", not "mixture", right? Because superposition is the complex-linear combination of two basis state vectors (both states at the same time for real!), but mixture is the real-valued classical probability mix of two state vectors (one or the other but we don't know which).
$endgroup$
– David Tonhofer
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am surprised that no one has discussed vacuum fluctuations as the trigger for these spontaneous nuclear decays. This question is just the nuclear physics analog of this question: An explanation of the Spontaneous Emission which applies to atomic physics. That spontaneous decays in atomic physics are triggered by vacuum fluctuations of the E&M field is the essence of Wigner-Weisskopf Theory.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am surprised that no one has discussed vacuum fluctuations as the trigger for these spontaneous nuclear decays. This question is just the nuclear physics analog of this question: An explanation of the Spontaneous Emission which applies to atomic physics. That spontaneous decays in atomic physics are triggered by vacuum fluctuations of the E&M field is the essence of Wigner-Weisskopf Theory.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am surprised that no one has discussed vacuum fluctuations as the trigger for these spontaneous nuclear decays. This question is just the nuclear physics analog of this question: An explanation of the Spontaneous Emission which applies to atomic physics. That spontaneous decays in atomic physics are triggered by vacuum fluctuations of the E&M field is the essence of Wigner-Weisskopf Theory.
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I am surprised that no one has discussed vacuum fluctuations as the trigger for these spontaneous nuclear decays. This question is just the nuclear physics analog of this question: An explanation of the Spontaneous Emission which applies to atomic physics. That spontaneous decays in atomic physics are triggered by vacuum fluctuations of the E&M field is the essence of Wigner-Weisskopf Theory.
answered 7 hours ago
Lewis MillerLewis Miller
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4,3021 gold badge12 silver badges22 bronze badges
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The short answer is that systems tend to minimise their energy over time. The electrons around an atom will spontaneously drop to the lowest possible energy orbitals. Carbon spontaneously combines with oxygen to form carbon dioxide. Radioactive nuclei lower their energy by decaying.
A ball on the crest of a hill will not spontaneously roll down the hill; it needs some impetus to get itself moving. As soon as you push it, it will quickly roll down, because the position "ball in the valley" has less energy than "ball on top of the hill". But you need to get it moving. With very small things, like nuclei, you don't even need to do that - the nucleus doesn't have a well-defined position or momentum; it's as if the rock in our example could spontaneously move a few inches to the side, or gain a bit of velocity. The rock wouldn't stay on top of the hill for very long.
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1
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This seems like a somewhat misleading classical analogy. Randomness in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with equilibrium, and the Schrodinger equation doesn't say anything about things going to lower energy levels. The Schrodinger equation is symmetric under time-reversal, and it describes absorption of energy on an equal footing with emission.
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– Ben Crowell
2 days ago
2
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This Answer simply begs the question. The OP asks what triggers the decay of a nucleus at one time and not another, and you offer the analogy of a stone that rolls down a hill-- because it spontaneously moved an inch from the peak and o began to roll. Well, then, what triggered that initial movement at one time and not another?
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– Beta
yesterday
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@BenCrowell The classical analogy is also symmetric; and the reason it (almost never) happens in the opposite direction is essentially the same as with the quantum case - though obviously, it's a lot easier for a stable nuclei to absorb e.g. a photon and an antineutrino of just the right energy than for a rock to absorb all of the energy released as it was rolling down the hill; it would be so unlikely for a lock to spontaneously roll back uphill that we can't really expect it would ever happen once in the whole universe.
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– Luaan
yesterday
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@Beta No, I contrast the classical macroscopic phenomenon with what actually happens on the level of e.g. individual nuclei. The crucial distinction is the uncertainty in position and momentum - a rock doesn't spontaneously start rolling down the hill, but if you scaled it small enough, it would (for a narrow enough peak, of course). Of course there's no real macroscopic analogue (though classical waves do share the uncertainty, it's not quite the same kind).
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– Luaan
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The short answer is that systems tend to minimise their energy over time. The electrons around an atom will spontaneously drop to the lowest possible energy orbitals. Carbon spontaneously combines with oxygen to form carbon dioxide. Radioactive nuclei lower their energy by decaying.
A ball on the crest of a hill will not spontaneously roll down the hill; it needs some impetus to get itself moving. As soon as you push it, it will quickly roll down, because the position "ball in the valley" has less energy than "ball on top of the hill". But you need to get it moving. With very small things, like nuclei, you don't even need to do that - the nucleus doesn't have a well-defined position or momentum; it's as if the rock in our example could spontaneously move a few inches to the side, or gain a bit of velocity. The rock wouldn't stay on top of the hill for very long.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
This seems like a somewhat misleading classical analogy. Randomness in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with equilibrium, and the Schrodinger equation doesn't say anything about things going to lower energy levels. The Schrodinger equation is symmetric under time-reversal, and it describes absorption of energy on an equal footing with emission.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
This Answer simply begs the question. The OP asks what triggers the decay of a nucleus at one time and not another, and you offer the analogy of a stone that rolls down a hill-- because it spontaneously moved an inch from the peak and o began to roll. Well, then, what triggered that initial movement at one time and not another?
$endgroup$
– Beta
yesterday
$begingroup$
@BenCrowell The classical analogy is also symmetric; and the reason it (almost never) happens in the opposite direction is essentially the same as with the quantum case - though obviously, it's a lot easier for a stable nuclei to absorb e.g. a photon and an antineutrino of just the right energy than for a rock to absorb all of the energy released as it was rolling down the hill; it would be so unlikely for a lock to spontaneously roll back uphill that we can't really expect it would ever happen once in the whole universe.
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Beta No, I contrast the classical macroscopic phenomenon with what actually happens on the level of e.g. individual nuclei. The crucial distinction is the uncertainty in position and momentum - a rock doesn't spontaneously start rolling down the hill, but if you scaled it small enough, it would (for a narrow enough peak, of course). Of course there's no real macroscopic analogue (though classical waves do share the uncertainty, it's not quite the same kind).
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The short answer is that systems tend to minimise their energy over time. The electrons around an atom will spontaneously drop to the lowest possible energy orbitals. Carbon spontaneously combines with oxygen to form carbon dioxide. Radioactive nuclei lower their energy by decaying.
A ball on the crest of a hill will not spontaneously roll down the hill; it needs some impetus to get itself moving. As soon as you push it, it will quickly roll down, because the position "ball in the valley" has less energy than "ball on top of the hill". But you need to get it moving. With very small things, like nuclei, you don't even need to do that - the nucleus doesn't have a well-defined position or momentum; it's as if the rock in our example could spontaneously move a few inches to the side, or gain a bit of velocity. The rock wouldn't stay on top of the hill for very long.
$endgroup$
The short answer is that systems tend to minimise their energy over time. The electrons around an atom will spontaneously drop to the lowest possible energy orbitals. Carbon spontaneously combines with oxygen to form carbon dioxide. Radioactive nuclei lower their energy by decaying.
A ball on the crest of a hill will not spontaneously roll down the hill; it needs some impetus to get itself moving. As soon as you push it, it will quickly roll down, because the position "ball in the valley" has less energy than "ball on top of the hill". But you need to get it moving. With very small things, like nuclei, you don't even need to do that - the nucleus doesn't have a well-defined position or momentum; it's as if the rock in our example could spontaneously move a few inches to the side, or gain a bit of velocity. The rock wouldn't stay on top of the hill for very long.
answered 2 days ago
LuaanLuaan
4,57215 silver badges23 bronze badges
4,57215 silver badges23 bronze badges
1
$begingroup$
This seems like a somewhat misleading classical analogy. Randomness in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with equilibrium, and the Schrodinger equation doesn't say anything about things going to lower energy levels. The Schrodinger equation is symmetric under time-reversal, and it describes absorption of energy on an equal footing with emission.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
This Answer simply begs the question. The OP asks what triggers the decay of a nucleus at one time and not another, and you offer the analogy of a stone that rolls down a hill-- because it spontaneously moved an inch from the peak and o began to roll. Well, then, what triggered that initial movement at one time and not another?
$endgroup$
– Beta
yesterday
$begingroup$
@BenCrowell The classical analogy is also symmetric; and the reason it (almost never) happens in the opposite direction is essentially the same as with the quantum case - though obviously, it's a lot easier for a stable nuclei to absorb e.g. a photon and an antineutrino of just the right energy than for a rock to absorb all of the energy released as it was rolling down the hill; it would be so unlikely for a lock to spontaneously roll back uphill that we can't really expect it would ever happen once in the whole universe.
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Beta No, I contrast the classical macroscopic phenomenon with what actually happens on the level of e.g. individual nuclei. The crucial distinction is the uncertainty in position and momentum - a rock doesn't spontaneously start rolling down the hill, but if you scaled it small enough, it would (for a narrow enough peak, of course). Of course there's no real macroscopic analogue (though classical waves do share the uncertainty, it's not quite the same kind).
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
This seems like a somewhat misleading classical analogy. Randomness in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with equilibrium, and the Schrodinger equation doesn't say anything about things going to lower energy levels. The Schrodinger equation is symmetric under time-reversal, and it describes absorption of energy on an equal footing with emission.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
2 days ago
2
$begingroup$
This Answer simply begs the question. The OP asks what triggers the decay of a nucleus at one time and not another, and you offer the analogy of a stone that rolls down a hill-- because it spontaneously moved an inch from the peak and o began to roll. Well, then, what triggered that initial movement at one time and not another?
$endgroup$
– Beta
yesterday
$begingroup$
@BenCrowell The classical analogy is also symmetric; and the reason it (almost never) happens in the opposite direction is essentially the same as with the quantum case - though obviously, it's a lot easier for a stable nuclei to absorb e.g. a photon and an antineutrino of just the right energy than for a rock to absorb all of the energy released as it was rolling down the hill; it would be so unlikely for a lock to spontaneously roll back uphill that we can't really expect it would ever happen once in the whole universe.
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Beta No, I contrast the classical macroscopic phenomenon with what actually happens on the level of e.g. individual nuclei. The crucial distinction is the uncertainty in position and momentum - a rock doesn't spontaneously start rolling down the hill, but if you scaled it small enough, it would (for a narrow enough peak, of course). Of course there's no real macroscopic analogue (though classical waves do share the uncertainty, it's not quite the same kind).
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
1
1
$begingroup$
This seems like a somewhat misleading classical analogy. Randomness in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with equilibrium, and the Schrodinger equation doesn't say anything about things going to lower energy levels. The Schrodinger equation is symmetric under time-reversal, and it describes absorption of energy on an equal footing with emission.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
2 days ago
$begingroup$
This seems like a somewhat misleading classical analogy. Randomness in quantum mechanics doesn't have anything to do with equilibrium, and the Schrodinger equation doesn't say anything about things going to lower energy levels. The Schrodinger equation is symmetric under time-reversal, and it describes absorption of energy on an equal footing with emission.
$endgroup$
– Ben Crowell
2 days ago
2
2
$begingroup$
This Answer simply begs the question. The OP asks what triggers the decay of a nucleus at one time and not another, and you offer the analogy of a stone that rolls down a hill-- because it spontaneously moved an inch from the peak and o began to roll. Well, then, what triggered that initial movement at one time and not another?
$endgroup$
– Beta
yesterday
$begingroup$
This Answer simply begs the question. The OP asks what triggers the decay of a nucleus at one time and not another, and you offer the analogy of a stone that rolls down a hill-- because it spontaneously moved an inch from the peak and o began to roll. Well, then, what triggered that initial movement at one time and not another?
$endgroup$
– Beta
yesterday
$begingroup$
@BenCrowell The classical analogy is also symmetric; and the reason it (almost never) happens in the opposite direction is essentially the same as with the quantum case - though obviously, it's a lot easier for a stable nuclei to absorb e.g. a photon and an antineutrino of just the right energy than for a rock to absorb all of the energy released as it was rolling down the hill; it would be so unlikely for a lock to spontaneously roll back uphill that we can't really expect it would ever happen once in the whole universe.
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
$begingroup$
@BenCrowell The classical analogy is also symmetric; and the reason it (almost never) happens in the opposite direction is essentially the same as with the quantum case - though obviously, it's a lot easier for a stable nuclei to absorb e.g. a photon and an antineutrino of just the right energy than for a rock to absorb all of the energy released as it was rolling down the hill; it would be so unlikely for a lock to spontaneously roll back uphill that we can't really expect it would ever happen once in the whole universe.
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Beta No, I contrast the classical macroscopic phenomenon with what actually happens on the level of e.g. individual nuclei. The crucial distinction is the uncertainty in position and momentum - a rock doesn't spontaneously start rolling down the hill, but if you scaled it small enough, it would (for a narrow enough peak, of course). Of course there's no real macroscopic analogue (though classical waves do share the uncertainty, it's not quite the same kind).
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
$begingroup$
@Beta No, I contrast the classical macroscopic phenomenon with what actually happens on the level of e.g. individual nuclei. The crucial distinction is the uncertainty in position and momentum - a rock doesn't spontaneously start rolling down the hill, but if you scaled it small enough, it would (for a narrow enough peak, of course). Of course there's no real macroscopic analogue (though classical waves do share the uncertainty, it's not quite the same kind).
$endgroup$
– Luaan
yesterday
add a comment |
Chris Krause is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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I assume you're asking about spontaneous radioactive decay, not the induced nuclear fission that happens in nuclear reactors and bombs?
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– probably_someone
2 days ago
4
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Please everyone, no answers in the comment section. Thanks!!
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– AccidentalFourierTransform
2 days ago
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Related question: physics.stackexchange.com/questions/346288/…
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– Lewis Miller
yesterday